Talk:Shinto

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[edit] Please Help with Editing Shinto Wiki Page Chozusha

See Chozusha.

The article simply needs more info. Thanks in advance!--Sean-Jin 22:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Origins

Intranetusa - I added in East Asia, since most of the Japanese are descendents of people from China & Korea who migrated there in Paleolithic times around 5000-6000 years ago.

I think that the additions to the article are good in theory, but at times it seem a little too much like "cheerleading" for Shinto. It's good to put in more details about Shinto beliefs and practices, but I think someone needs to edit it to be a little more NPOV.--Carl

Shintō is the native religion of Japan, and is shamanistic and polytheistic. Most of Japanese leaders are shintoists.

This is an very important comment! I've realized most articles about Shinto only focuses on small details and is suffering from a bad case of exceptionalism (which is very often the case with articles about Japanese culture). What's really important is to see shinto's shamanist origin and relationship with other shamanist cultures, in particular Korean. I will try to find proof for this theory and post here in the future. -Himasaram 22:25, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be interesting to compare the two religions--there are definite similarities, and I don't think most people realize how similar they are. From what I can tell, the religious structure of the Goryeo era seems to have been very similar to the Buddhist-Shinto syncretism that prevailed through most of Japan's history.
I'm not sure, though, that Japanese shamanism ever involved, as Korean shamanism does, what anthropologists call "personifying" and most people call possession (minus the negative connotations). A mudang (I believe "mansin" is their preferred term) "takes on" her gods, allowing them to speak, act, and accept offerings through her, but I don't believe a miko ever did. They've always been more like Ancient Rome's Vestal virgins (ninja writer Stephen Hayes actually translates miko that way), dedicated to serve the god in its shrine. I could be wrong--there's an awful lot of Japan for Shinto to happen in, and it varies by region--but I think on the whole I'm right.71.223.169.27 23:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ryobu Shinto

Can someone add something about Ryobu Shinto?

If this article is compared with Kami, the external link has a much clearer structure - something along these lines would benefit this article. Rellis1067 15:30, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I want to add a history section, but I need some time to fix it up first, so I'm temporarily putting it here: --Carl 12:16, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] History

The earliest origins of Shinto are lost to history, but presumably the tribal gods and rituals that later developed into Shinto predate the arrival of the ancestors of today's Japanese people to the Japanese islands. Most likely, each tribe and area had their own collection of gods and rituals with no formal relationship between each of the areas. Following the ascendency of the ancestor's of today's Imperial family to a position of power among the other groups, their ancestral deities were given prominence over the deities of other groups, though different systems continued to coexist.

The introduction of Buddhism and writing in the 6th century had a profound impact on the development of a unified system of Shinto beliefs. In a brief period of time, the [Nihongi] (The Chronicles of Japan) and the [Kojiki] (The Record of Ancient Things) were written by compiling existing myths and legends into a unified account (see: [Japanese mythology]). These accounts were written with two purposes in mind. First, the sophistication of the narratives and the introduction of Taoist, Confucian, and Buddhist themes into the narratives were meant to impress the Chinese with the sophistication of the Japanese. The Japanese felt intimidated by the clearly advanced culture of the Chinese and so hoped to produce a work rivaling it. Second, the narratives were meant to shore up support for the legitimacy of the Imperial house, based on its lineage from the Sun Goddess [Amaterasu]. Much of the area of modern Japan was under only fragmentary control by the Imperial family, and rival ethnic groups (including, perhaps, the ancestors of the [Ainu]) continued to war against the encroachment of the Japanese. The mythological anthologies, along with other poetry anthologies like the [Man'yoshu] and others, were all meant to impress others with the worthiness of Imperial family and their divine mandate to rule.

With the introduction of Buddhism and its rapid adoption by the court, it was necessary to explain the apparent differences between native Japanese beliefs and Buddhist teachings. One explanation saw the Japanese kami as supernatural beings still caught in the cycle of birth and rebirth. The kami are born, live, die, and are reborn like all other beings in the karmic cycle. However, the kami played a special role in protecting Buddhism and allowing its compassionate teachings to flourish. This explanation was later challenged by [Kukai], who saw the kami as different embodiments of the Buddhas themselves. For example, he famously linked Amaterasu, Sun Goddess and ancestor of the Imperial family, with [Dainichi Nyorai], a central manifestation of the Buddha, whose name is literally "Great Sun Buddha". In his view, the kami were just Buddhas by another name.

Kukai's syncretic view held wide sway up until the end of the [Edo period]. At that time, there was a renewed interest in "Japanese studies," perhaps as a result of the closed country policy. In the 18th century, various Japanese scholars tried to tease apart the "real" Shinto from various foreign influences. The attempt was largely unsuccessful, since as early as the Nihongi, parts of the mythology were explicitly borrowed from Chinese doctrines. (For example, the co-creator deities Izanami and Izanagi are explicitly compared to yin and yang.) However, the attempt did set the stage for the arrival of state Shinto, following the [Meiji Restoration].

Following the Meiji Restoration, Shinto was made the official religion of Japan, and its combination with Buddhism was outlawed. During this period, it was felt that Shinto was needed in order to unify the country around the Emperor as the process of modernization was undertaken with all possible speed. The arrival of large Western gun ships and the collapse of the shogunate convinced many that the nation needed to band together if it was going to resist being conquered by outside forces. As a result, Shinto was used as a tool for promoting Emperor (and Empire) worship, and Shinto was exported into conquered territories like [Hokkaido] and [Korea].

The era of state Shinto came to an abrupt close with the end of [World War II]. The kami had failed to provide a Divine Wind (kamikaze) to turn back the foreign invaders. Soon after the war, the Emperor even issued a statement renouncing his claims to the status of "living god." In the aftermath of the war, most Japanese came to believe that the hubris of Empire had led to their downfall. Lust for foreign territory blinded their leaders to the importance of their homeland. Also in the aftermath of the war, numerous "new religions" cropped up, many of them ostensibly based on Shinto.

Following the war, Shinto has for the most part persisted without the focus on mythology or the divine mandate of the Imperial family. Instead, shrines tend to focus on helping ordinary people gain better fortunes for themselves through maintaining good relations with their ancestors and other kami. Shinto ways of thinking continues to be an important part of the Japanese mindset, though the number of people who identify themselves as religious have suffered a sharp decline.

Excellent work, Carl. Couple small points. You're probably aware that you need to change the brackets to double brackets. Also, there should probably be some substantion for "presumably the tribal gods and rituals that later developed into Shinto predate the arrival of the ancestors of today's Japanese people to the Japanese islands." This doesn't strike me as obvious, anyway. - Nat Krause 09:18, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


[edit] New image

Kamidana
Kamidana

New image related to Shinto arrived at commons. Japanese edition has an article ja:神棚.--Gleam 10:38, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Types of Shinto

I am a student at Newark High School. This imformation was part of my Senior Research Paper. I was careful with my info and hope you use it.

It seems OK. I'll add an intro or something. --Carl 06:28, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shinto misogi practices

If there's someone out there who knows, please describe the relevance and practices of misogi in Shinto belief.

[edit] Remnants in former Japanese Empire?

Are there still any Shintoists in the former Japanese Empire where Shinto was taught and made the official religion (eg Korea or Manchuria)?

That's highly unlikley, as Shintoism and the cult of the Japanese emperor were closely linked to Japanese imperialistic ambitions and all crimes commited in it's name. -Himasaram 11:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shintoism is Jewish?

Can someone please cite a credible source on this. I do not trust the one that is used here. Keep in mind people, the tremendous desire of people to place their own cultural values onto those of other people. See ethnocentrism--Scipantheist 22:54, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What are you on about? Sam Spade 00:11, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the claim that Shinto and Judiasm are linked is pretty clearly bunk, but someone put it on the page, and probably would get mad if you took it off. I'm mostly focused on limiting the damage by acknowledging the theory, just letting it be mentioned, but pointing out that very few accept the theory. You can try taking it off the page. Probably though, it will just get added back in a less NPOV form. --Carl 03:25, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to say that the Japanese themselves come from Israel. That seems less damaging, and maybe the person who wrote this won't notice:)--Scipantheist 15:05, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It would be interesting if there were supporting genetic knowledge.

Hm... this reference is kinda troubling to me. I've heard of the lost tribes being connected to some of the Chinese, but not the Japanese. Is there any noted similarity in traditions at all? That's what a lot of the research on the lost tribes is based on, and Shintoism itself doesn't seem to have any. -- clevomon

The only similarity I've ever heard of is that some stone lanterns in Ise have six-pointed stars on them. Fg2 01:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the portable shrine carried at a festival is very similar to the traditional image of the Arc of the Covenant. And both Shintou and Judaism are traditionally very concerned with ritual purity. Not that it means they're related (they certainly aren't), but just that there are a few external similarities; all the important things (doctrine, what practices mean, ethics) are totally different. But no, the fact a few externals are similar is the important thing. Those giant differences mean nothing, nothing!71.223.169.27 23:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

That the Japanese came from Israel is clearly bunk. The historical situation is like that: Jews of the lost tribes made it to China (there is some historical proof of that), and some of them may have crossed the strait to Japan. There is no clear prove for it, but at least it is possible. But even if 100 Jews made it to Japan in maybe 400 AC that does not make them the forefathers of the Japanese people, but rather a small minority that got lost somewhere in history.

Now for the Shinto<->Judaism claims. When Chinese culture was introduced to Japan, China was an open to the world, and scholars from all over the ancient world were at the court in Changan. When they came to Japan, they took with them not only their own scripture and confucianism, but also buddhism and some vedic gods from India. Now, since Jews were in China at that time, they could have gone to Japan and could have taken their religious texts with them. Or Chinese scholars could have taken Jewish texts in Chinese translation with them. We don't know. The library at the Daigaku burnt down in 700 something.

So, some elements of Jewish religion could have influenced Japanese Shinto and Buddhism (which were not separated at until the Meiji restoration). But Jews were unheard of in Meiji Japan, so nobody recognized Jewish elements as Jewish. In fact, when Buddhism and Shinto were separated (Shinbutsu Bunri), the Jewish elements were recognized as non-buddhist, so they had to be "ancient Japanese". So, Jewish elements in Shinto may in fact be Jewish, but if they are Jewish, it means they are not Ancient Japanese. -- Mkill 21:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I sincerely doubt there were any Jews in China, considering the Lost Tribes were forced-resettled by the Assyrians onto their northwestern border. Every source I've ever seen for "Jews in Ancient China" was of the "Aliens built the Face on Mars" school. Are there any real sources for this idea?71.223.169.27 23:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC) --
Actually there was a Jewish settlement in Kaifeng, and a large stone tablet explaining the Jews arrival in China as merchants. I have photos of it in a collection I manage in the AGSL. However, that would have been too late to link the Jews with the Japanese and Shinto anyways. Remove the reference. Meateatingvegan 21:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

So, is that reference even worth noting at all? -- Clevomon 21:32 23 December 2005

[edit] Decline of Shinto?

I am making some changes to the way statements are worded that imply that Shintoism is not practiced or taught any more. Please site me some sources if you think that this is wrong.--Scipantheist 15:41, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural Effects of Shinto

I thought I should make clear my reasons for editing this section. First sentence read:

The influence of Shinto on Japanese culture can hardly be overestimated. Although it is now near-impossible to disentangle its influence from that of Buddhism, it is clear that the spirit of being one with nature that gave rise to this religion underlies such typically Japanese arts as flower-arranging (ikebana) and traditional Japanese architecture and garden design.

Which I changed to:

Shinto has been called "the religion of Japaneseness", and the customs and values of Shinto are inseperable from those of Japanese culture prior to the influx of Chinese religious ideas that occured in the mid 6th century CE. Many famously Japanese practices have origins either directly or indirectly rooted in Shinto. For example, it is clear that the Shinto ideal of harmony with nature underlies such typically Japanese arts as flower-arranging (ikebana) and traditional Japanese architecture and garden design.

This seems more accurate, as the modern term Shinto and the earlier Japanese term Kami no Michi (Way of the Kami) did not come into use until foreign religious practices came to Japan, and terminology was needed to differentiate between them. -- Xastic 6 July 2005 23:01 (UTC)

My apologies if I do this incorrectly, as I've yet to learn how to properly edit wikipedia articles. I just thought I should point out that, as the practice of using chopsticks was imported from China, then it's not very clear how they could have their origin in Shinto beliefs. Did the author mean to imply that waribashi (disposable chopsticks), which are a relatively recent invention, has origins in Shinto beliefs and practices? 210.130.236.30 07:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Curtis

Shinto in Modern Culture Would it be relevant to mention the use of spirits, spirits assigned to things and even the clear devotion to nature mentioned in this article, that is so obviously depicted in anime like the "kodama" in Princess Mononoke or the "mushi" in Mushishi?

[edit] Myth?

Don't know if it was here or elsewhere, but Shinto was referred to as a bunch of Myths.. Don't think it's fair, to say many people, including Myself Believe in it.

Secondly, the Christianity Article is huge, and yet this one is Small, so i'm going to add as much information as i can to this article, whilst keeping it as neutral as possible.

I think if you're adding stuff like "Shinto is Jewish", or "Shinto is x", you should at least have clear stuff to support it, it's offensive to say things about other religions without actually knowing about them :(

Thanks,

"Myth" can have both a positive and negative connotation. I think it would be wrong to say, "kami are a myth," but it's OK to say, "Shinto has extensive mythology about Amaterasu, Jimmu Ten'nô, etc." In the latter case, "myth" doesn't necessarily mean "false," it just means a collection of fantastical stories involving gods and magic, etc. The reason that the Christianity article is large than the Shinto article is that more English speaking Wikipedia users are Christian than Shintoist, and they write about what they know. If you have first hand knowledge of Shinto beliefs and practices that you can add in an NPOV way, you are more than welcome to do so. In fact, I would like to encourage you to add things if you have time. As for the Jewish thing, feel free to remove it. Some crank added it, and we've been wanting to take it out for a while. It doesn't really belong in the article. --Carl 02:25, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

That's correct. In religious scholarship "mythology" doesn't imply a truth value. In this sense, most, if not all, religions have mythology associated with them. I haven't checked whether or not the Christianity article uses the term, but it would apply just as readily to the Bible as to the Kojiki. Also, the Jewish thing should probably be taken out or moved to the bottom under a section on fringe theories. --Xastic 06:09, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The term myth as meaning something that isn't true is only the mainstream definition of the word. It does not originally denote something that is untrue. I'm guessing the modern usage of it has it's origins in the so-called "Age of Enlightenment", when hordes of unsatisfied budding atheists claimed that anything that they cannot verify is not true. I feel that it shows as much ignorance when it is used as an word synonymous with untrue, by atheists, as it is when used by religious people with the same definition. I'm sure you can see how strongly I dislike the modern usage of the word. There exist Christian, Islamic and Judaic mythology. Though mainstream followers don't apply the word to their faith, people who are primarily mythologists, such as myself(as I'm Christian) have fewer or no qualms against using the word. Though it should be noted that the mythology of Islam is extremely minor since the majority of it's stories are present in the Qu'ran. Satanael 18:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] State Shinto

For reference, this is the paragraph that was cut:

It has been proposed that the uncharacteristically aggressive beliefs upon which State Shinto operated may have been inspired by the application of a number of incongruously Western religious ideas, such as universality and evangelism, to certain, otherwise benign, mythological elements of Shinto, a national folk religion. For example, the notion of the Emperor being a divinely mandated ruler is not particularly unreasonable if this dominion encompasses Japan alone, as was intended in the creation myths of the Kojiki and Nihonshoki. If one extends this mandate to the world, however, one can quickly see that such a notion becomes problematic.

I think I understand your reasons for cutting this; I'd actually expected someone to object to it right after I put it up. It is, however, relevant information about a socio-cultural theory relevant to State Shinto, and I think there might be a way to give this information in a way that is not POV. The paragraph is paraphrased from an article by Kenji Ueda that's referenced at the bottom of the page. Xastic 08:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't happy about cutting it, but the paragraph felt a little off. Just slightly un-wiki-esque, if that makes any sense. Can you rewrite it so that the theory is attributed? As in, "Kenji Ueda of blah blah, among others, theorizes that…" I almost tried to just rewrite it to make it more npov, but I wasn't sure I was up to it. If you think you can, please do! --Carl 14:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone who obviously does not speak english as their primary language has added information to this section that utilizes poor grammatical structure and misspellings. Can someone clean this up?

Fixed it, I think. --Carl 12:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Well done. That was a lot of clean up. Just performed one or two minor grammer and puctuative simplifications to what you did. I hope you don't mind.

I think the article should say something more about why (and how) Shinto lost its position as the state religion in Japan. I also wonder if and how I should make a (more specific) request for this part of the article being elaborated. -- chsf 20:44, 8th Februaty 2006 (UTC)

I would agree. In popular settings people seem to want to believe that all Japanese just dropped this form of belief and that it has no state/nationalistic relevance whatsoever, which is not at all true. Article should reflect this I feel. LandorS 14:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC) LandorS

[edit] not a religion

japanese people do not think of shinto as a religion, it is more of a culture, similar to being an ethnic jew, but with no corresponding judaism to convert to.

While it is certainly arguable that Shinto has little in common with western religions, I think 'religion' is the least bad way to describe it in English. Most Japanese people treat Christianity and Buddhism in much the same way as they treat Shinto, but that doesn't mean that Christianity and Buddhism aren't religions.
In addition, although Japanese texts on Shinto tend to assume that the reader is Japanese, few of the ceremonies actually exclude foreigners. Apparently, a noticeably high proportion of shrine weddings have one foreign partner. (According to the priest at the shrine where I will get married.) It's a part of Japanese culture that doesn't really spread, but it isn't completely exclusive. I'd say it is a religion, for classificatory purposes.
David Chart 06:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
It's very definitely a form of spirituality. It looks to me like proof-in-practise that either the conventional concept of religion is too narrow, or we need a new lower-level concept - "proto-religion"?
Julian Morrison 16:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems that the base question is something like : 'Is "religion as ritual", without belief, still as much a religion as "religion as dogma"?

Actually, Shinto's approach is historically the norm; Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and (to a lesser extent) Buddhism and Hinduism have an unusual approach. In most religions, especially polytheistic ones, belief is secondary to practice. Consider the ancient Romans, for instance--a philosopher might have almost any theories he liked about the gods, from that they were real to they were metaphors to they were lies, but he almost certainly wouldn't advocate stopping sacrifices to them. The Greeks, Romans, Norse, and Slavs seem to have had roughly the same approach to "belief" as Shinto; a similar approach is also found in Confucianism and Taoism. In many ways, the approach taken by all such systems is similar to Pascal's Wager: if the gods are real, we do well to please them, and if not, well, we're none the worse for doing these things.71.223.169.27 15:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New portal on religion

Brisvegas and I have been creating portals for various significant religions, with your religion being one of the portals. The portals still need work, but most of the groundwork has been done. We need to find people who would like to take responsibility for their faith's portal. Brisvega looks after the Christianity portal, and I look after the Islam portal. You can find your religion's portal by looking at the Religion & Spirituality section on the portal template at Template:Portals. I've been notified that your faith's portal can possibly be deleted if no one looks after the portal. --JuanMuslim 1m 17:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] percentage

What percentage of the Japanese population believes in Shinto? --Abdull 09:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That subject's a little vague and controversial. I'd rather a figure on it stayed out of Wikipedia. (I personally like to think almost all of them do, but they would mostly disagree.) elvenscout742 16:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
For statistical purposes, people don't "believe in Shinto", but people register at Shinto shrines (for whatever reason, maybe they just like to carry the mikoshi at a matsuri). That figure was 117.378 million in 1995, according to the Office for Religious Affairs at the Agency for Cultural Affairs. -- Mkill 21:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
From what I have read, I feel that one does not really choose to believe (or doubt) Shinto doctrine. Instead, one choose to adhere to it as a lifestyle or a set of duties and relationships. It is a very community-oriented religion, as opposed to doctrine-oriented religions such as Islam and Christianity. Luis Dantas 00:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
i agree. religion is seen more as a part of culture in the East. an interesting observation is you don't see much people fighting over religion here as in the West. Akinkhoo 09:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ideas to improve iformation about Shinto

The best way to get effitiant and correct information on Shinto is to talk to religious figures or believers about its different branches. Have the write about it. Also books and other sources can be added to improve this website.

The problem is that books are rare and believers are Japanese. Julian Morrison 21:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is it POV?

This piece of text has been removed from the article today: Shinto is considered an occult religion by some due to its ritualistic practices, meditations, and associations to Tao and Buddhism. Some people also view it as Pagan due to its ancient history. I am not sure it should be left out. Such a qualified statement seems to reflect speculation and perhaps lack of reliable information, even confusion, but it seems a bit harsh to label it as vandalism. Luis Dantas 01:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Lemme see. "Occult religion", like what, omikuji? "ritualistic practices" unlike every other religion on earth, of course. "Pagan", only in the very broadest sense of not being Christian. "due to its ancient history" unlike say, Buddhism? Plus this whole ventriloquist's dummy named "some people". Which people?
The whole excerpt is strangely meaningless - unless you're a bible belter for whom "occult", "ritualistic", "pagan" are attack words.
Ignorant POV. Leave it out.
Julian Morrison 14:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Pagan may not mean simply "non-Christian", unlike what most people believes. Paganism is the cult of Nature and spirits/deities that influentiate the world and human lives. Shinto is basically a Pagan religion, although it's not called so because everyone thinks of Europeans or Native Americans when they hear "pagan". And of course, Paganism is not a bad/occult/sacrifice religion (such as Shinto). So I think it should be clarified as Pagan. --Midasminus (talk) 15:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shinto definition

The following statements add more noise than signal to the article and should probably be edited. "On the one hand, it can be seen as merely a highly sophisticated form of animism and may be regarded as a primal shamanist religion. On the other hand, Shinto beliefs and ways of thinking are deeply embedded in the subconscious fabric of modern Japanese society." This implies that other forms of animism/shamanism are not deeply embedded in the subconscious fabric of their believers. Also, depending on the defintion of "sophisticated", it may not be NPOV. To say, for example, that Shintoism is more "intellectually appealing" or "refined" or "ahead in development" (all of which are synonyms for "sophisticated") than other forms of animism is certainly NOT NPOV.

"The word Shinto was created by combining two kanji: "神" shin meaning god (the character can also be read as "kami" in Japanese) and "道" tō meaning Tao ("way" or "path" in a philosophical sense)." While this definition pops up all over the place, it is wrong. Kami are not gods. Shin, I believe, means "reality" or "truth". An excellent source explaining kami can be found here.here.

Yes, 'kami' and 'gods' do not mean the same thing. (This is pointed out in the article on Kami, where "Shinto scholars point out that such a translation can cause a serious misunderstanding") However, I'd like to also mention that while "道" (to) is the same character is used for the Chinese word "Tao", "神" (shin) is the same as the Chinese word for a god, or a diety. Since many Japanese characters were borrowed from the Chinese in the past, the meanings of 神 would have changed to fit their uses. This in turn causes confusion when trying to interpret their meanings to English today, since there is no English equivalant. I may change the definition to reflect this in the future, unless someone gets it first. And, yes, shin means "truth". S. Alatar 03:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"Shin" meaning truth is written with a different kanji: 真. Though 神 is closer to our word for "spirit," the word for "god" (in the christian sense) in Japanese uses the same kanji as Shinto, and is usually written 神様, comparable to "Great Spirit"210.130.236.30 07:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Curtis
210.130.236.30 is right here, but I want to add that saying that 神 does not mean "god" is a rather Shinto-centric (for "神") and Christian-centric (for "god") perspective, as both are used to mean gods of all religions. The Supreme Being is indeed often referred to as 神様, but 様 here is mostly honorific, somewhat like "the Lord" versus simple "God". A dictionary definition (my translation) of 神 is "A superhuman being that brings humans both good and bad fortune, reward and punishment; and is an object of faith and worship." The rest is details of what it can mean in different contexts, and there's no reason to unilaterally state that one meaning is more correct than another. Besides, if you believe Wiktionary, god's primary meaning is "a typically immortal being with superior powers", which fits nicely in all its generality (also 1913 Webster says "a being conceived of as possessing supernatural power, and to be propitiated by sacrifice, worship, etc."), so misunderstanding might not arise from meanings of the words themselves as much as difference in their common usage in their respective cultures. 82.103.215.236 01:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Saying that the shin in Shinto means "truth" is, frankly, ridiculos. Yes, the phoneme shin can mean truth, but is written with a different character altogether, as somebody pointed out higher. My dictionary has 102 different entries for kanji that are read shin. One can't just simply go through them, pick one out and decide it's in fact the real kanji used in the word Shinto. Only one is - the one that's also read kami. And the differences between kami and gods/deities/spirits or whatnot are elaborated in the Kami article. TomorrowTime 17:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Women as theological figures

I have created the above page: can someone contribute as relevant please (and for any other religions).

Jackiespeel 17:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] documentation of theophany by kami

Does anyone know if there is documentation of visitations upon the living by kami? Chris 23:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Check out Nakayama Miki and see if that's what you're looking for. Fg2 05:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, this sets my mind at ease a little. :) Chris 18:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hell and Demons?

There are clearly demons and evil in shinto belief, but is there a Hell? Can one go to Hell if they die in Shinto? Basically, what's the deal with the afterlife according to shinto religion? 154.20.135.89 05:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

See Yomi for starters Fg2 05:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, that answered my question :). 154.20.135.89 05:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shamanism?

What is the source for regarding Shinto as a form of shamanism? I realize this is a fuzzy area, but I had always been given to understand that it was an animistic system, in which the priest's mediating/otherworldly role was quite minor. Perhaps I've been misled? -- Visviva 01:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Omikuji

Hope I'm not being too picky, but Omikuji isn’t really comparable to “drawing lots” as stated in the article. Drawing lots is typically a system used to decide on a course of action, whereas omikuji, while it follows the same outward form (i.e., selecting from a number random hidden sticks), it is a system of fortune-telling. Proposed edit: omikuji (a form of fortune telling)

[edit] Impurity Section

In the Impurity section it says"For obvious reasons, most female shrine members are pre-pubescent girls" I dont see the obvious reasons, could someone please tell me what they are. I guess they will be obvious once i understand. SpokaneWilly 05:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed that sentence. It's unclear what the author means by "shrine members," whether they are pre-pubescent girls, and what the obvious reasons are. At least those matters would need to be addressed before the sentence becomes credible. Fg2 05:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not mentioned in the article is that blood is also kegare - impurity. As such, mensturation and childbirth were the larger reasons for the exclusion of women from holy sites such as Fuji and (Mount Koya?) As I am on a bit of a time constraint (finals) and have none of the literature to give reference to for verification, an update from me of this section will have to wait. Perhaps someone else?... Foltake 08:49, 30 November 2006

[edit] Ratings and Edits

Well, we've been ranked and added. I'm happy with being assessed as B-rank, but maybe we should push for that last bit to good article? And why has there been such a rash of vandelism? --Iriseyes 17:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The whole "heaven" derivation

I've been reading the kojiki translation, and have come to a bit of a quandry; is the word "heaven" a form of bias in translation, or is it accurate? I'm not too up on Chamberlain, but i'm sure that because of the word "heaven", i immediately think of christian mythology and not Japanese. What is the derivation of the word "heaven" ? I'd be interested to know wether or not it provides an accurate idea of where the Kami where "born", because i derived that that place was called a "plane". James S 09:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

"Plane" is a better word, but it doesn't work perfectly either. "Heaven" is, in fact, a translation bias, because Heaven as a location is a Western concept for the most part...plane is a good word but not perfect either. Perhaps "divine space?"--Iriseyes 23:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Why doesn't Shinto have an infobox like virtually every other religion with an article on Wikipedia? It looks to be a perfect candidate for such an infobox. Lexicon (talk) 22:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Important Shrines

The shrine list is more of a list of tourist sites than shrines central to the religion. Atsuta and others need on the list. The list as it is should be called "Famous Shrines".

[edit] Frankness in history section

19:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
"the ancestral deities of the Emperor of Japan and the Imperial family were given prominence over others and a narrative made up to justify it."
I do not object to the highlighted phrase, but wish such we lived in a world where such frankness was possible in articles on other religions, such as Christianity or Islam.

[edit] Kami and Ghosts: contradictory sentences

1 June 2007
Can someone who is knowledgeable on Shinto clear up the following two sentences:

Those who died would automatically be added to the rank of kami regardless of their human doings (It is thought that one can become a ghost under certain circumstances involving unsettled disputes in life).


The part in parenthesis contradicts the main sentence. I suspect the second part is contrasting Kami with the Western myths of ghosts who e.g. return to seek revenge or to atone for their actions etc. If so, the second sentence should begin e.g. "Unlike ghosts in Western mythology who ..."

No contradiction. You can be a ghost, especially an angry ghost, and a kami at the same time. I don't know enough about Japanese ghost beliefs to properly clear this up, though.
David Chart 06:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
From my understanding, a ghost (especially the angry kind) is essentially the wrathful form of an ancestor god, or the spirit of one who has never received ancestor worship. They are similar to the wrathful forms of non-human gods, in that they're usually created by resentment or other ritual pollution, and can usually be propitiated by sacrifices. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 02:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Characteristics

Why actually is the Yasukuni controversy put there? Yasukuni isn't a characteristic of Shintô, but a controversy triggered by certain religious/ideological believes. Instead there should be a point "Current controversies and criticisms" like in Christianity for example, where Yasukuni and other points, if there are any, should be summed up and linked to corresponding articles. Sven Lotz 09:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Priests

I think this article is lacking without a section on priests- their role, Japanese terms, costume (mentioned briefly in another section), training, ceremonies and rituals, etc. The section on practices covers some rituals, but doesn't distinguish between the role of priests, volunteers and regular parishioners in them. Such a section would also of course briefly describe miko. --DrHacky 16:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

HAPPY Gion Matsuri Day Today. It's Tue July 17, 2007 at 16:14 in Cabarroguis(Town approx 30 minutes drive SE of Cordon),Quirino(Province SE of Isabela(Province approx 8 hrs drive NE of Manila,Metro Manila)),Philippines. My site is at http://www.michaelmanalolazo.winnerbb.net Thanks.

[edit] Shinto and Buddhism

Does Shinto have anything to do with Buddhism?? Are they alike????????


Thank you.70.254.190.249 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Dot E70.254.190.249 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a huge issue, on which people take different positions. Until 1872, Shinto and Japanese Buddhism were very closely linked, with many temples (Buddhist) having a shrine (Shinto), and vice-versa. However, there is very little resemblance on a fundamental level; Shinto is much more concerned about this world than the next. This actually deserves its own article.
David Chart 01:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moral/ethical aspects of Shinto?

I encountered a plausibly relevant analysis in an early 20th century monograph on the Taiko and Taihō reforms -- possibly deserving to be expanded into the text of this article:

" ... [The] lack of the moral assumption of the ruler has, except in some political phraseology borrowed from China, characterized the entire history of Japan, until the new [Meiji] Constitution of 1889 has granted to the people freedom of conscience, the Emperor standing above all faiths considered as moral principles.Note 1
Note 1: [The Emperor's] performance of the hereditary Shinto rites is ethical, and lacks moral significance.. His celebrated Educational Rescript of October, 1889, implies that Japan has from early times been bound together by moral ties, and exhorts himself and the people alike to virtue. It cannot be said to reflect any belief that the responsibility of maintaining the morals of the nation falls upon the Imperial person, and less that the Sovereign holds his throne by virtue of his ethical excellence. Moreover, the morals herein inculcated is, save the renewed assertion of the theory of the Imperial succession, eclectic in character and embraces Confucian, Buddhist, and Christian, as well as traditional native virtues. Even this much of the moral care of the Sovereign, still devoid as it is of exclusive moral dogmas of a purely national character, has been made possible by the progress of history. It would have been extremely anachronistic had the Rescript been issued in the pre-Reform days.[pp. 131-132, emphasis added]
  • Asakawa, Kanichi. (1903). The Early Institutional Life of Japan: A Study in the Reform of 645. Toyko: Shueisha. [New York: Paragon Book Reprint Corp., 1963].

To me, this seems interesting -- appears important, but I don't quite see how there is enough in this one source to justify more than this terse posting on a Talk page. Maybe it could function as a catalyst ...? --Ooperhoofd 19:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apollo

Can anyone provide more information about the blessing conferred on the Apollo 11 mission? Is there a source for that or was it just something the writer heard somewhere? I don't doubt its true (I saw a shrine to Thomas Edison in Japan), but I'd like to know more. --CarlJ7

Yes, this actually happened. The article links (linked?) to the web page of the monk who actually did the procedure. However, I haven't edited this article in a while, so the link might not be there any longer. --Iriseyes 13:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most-known shrines

I thought Jennylen's recent edit was sensitive and subtle. I have two questions -- not suggestions, but trivial concerns which arise only because of the context:

  • 1. ==Important shrines== -->> [edited to become] -->> ==Most known shrines==
I wonder if there is still a better word choice? I can't think of anything more idiomatic than "Well-known Shrines" ... which isn't really that much of an improvement. I wonder if we mull this over in the back of our minds, we might hit on a marginally-improved formulation? Just a thought ....
  • 2. Line 182: Yasukuni Shrine (Tokyo), controversial shrine dedicated to the 'peace of the nation' and seen by some as a symbol of Japan's militaristic past.
I wonder if removing politics from the underlined clause is the best choice. There is no POV in the re-worked phrase, but the Yakasuni Shrine certainly does unquestionably arouse strong feelings. The mere mention of the shrine here (or in any other context) does introduce a distinctly different tone than is to be found in the remainder of the article's text. I can clearly appreciate the rationale for Jennylen's edit, and I'm not questioning impeccable judgment. Rather, I find that I am mildly troubled by the phrase as it was before the directness was ameliorated, and -- at the same time -- I continue to feel a bit uncertain about resolving those troubled feelings by elegantly side-stepping the triggered issues. Again, I wonder if we mull this over in the back of our minds, we might hit on a marginally-improved formulation?

Bottom line: The fact that I feel compelled to mention these minor points just serves to demonstrate that Jennylen's edit was handled with fine dexterity. --Ooperhoofd 20:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all thank you for your kind opinion about my editing. About your most interesting thoughts, I wonder if just "Shrines" and to use a first sentence as "Of the many existing Shinto shrines, the most known are:" will be better. And in the other thought, you may change "seen by some as a symbol of Japan's militaristic past" perhaps by "center of a debate about Japan's war-time issues" if wanting to avoid the "militaristic" word totally while alerting about the debate in course which the interested reader will probably look up in search engines.JennyLen☤ 20:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't want to change a thing, at least not right now. I truly want to ponder this a bit. It didn't occur to me until I re-visited my thinking about Yakasuni in the crisp context of Jennylen's edit. From today's slightly changed perspective, I'm a bit seduced by the notion that it's better, more Japanese, more congruent with Shinto to ameliorate that mistakenly direct language. The impact has now been softened.

Is it wrong to conclude that former Prime Minister Koizumi's strategy (in terms of Yakasuni) was to side-step deftly away from issues which remain unresolved even now? I'm now wondering if I've been mistaken in failing to parse the immutable logic of what he did? what his predecessors did?

For now, I would let Jennylen's edit stand untouched. I guess I'm saying that I need to sleep on this. --Ooperhoofd 23:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zodiac whistles

The following text was added to the article:

Shinto followers often own 'zodiac whistles'. These are special whistles made out of clay, modelled on the animal of the user's zodiac animal. It is said that if the user blows the whistle in a time of need then the spirit of their zodiac will assist them.

Does anyone have further information about this?

Fg2 21:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The article "Prayer"

The article Prayer has been nominated for Peer Review. It's weak in information on Japanese Buddhism, and the only mention of Shinto is in a photo. The article, the talk page, and the peer review are good places to insert material and sources, discuss directions for the article, and make suggestions. Possible topics include prayer by adherents of multiple religions or sects, prayer in sects as varied as Nichiren and Ōbaku and Shingon Mikkyō, prayer in present-day and in historic Shinto, the types of things people pray for at Shinto shrines (abundant harvest, good marriage, safe birth, success in studies...), ema, omikuji, hyakudo mairi, Jizō statues, State-sponsored religion (including Kokubun-ji and Gokoku-ji, the Ise Shrine, State Shinto etc.), recitation and copying of sutras, yamabushi, the monastic tradition, new religions; the blessing of automobiles, the fishing fleet, the sumo ring. The Ainu bear worship. Osorezan. Okinawan religion. Fg2 12:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I am reposting this here hoping that someone more familiar with the Shinto religion will see that there is a request for such an entry in an article not traditionally associated with Shinto. To me, this is an omission which by itself constitute POV, yet it seems we have no one qualified and willing to fill the void. Thank you. --Blanchardb 13:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shinto vs. Shintō

Is there a specific reason the macron is not used in the word Shinto? It seems as though that it is common to use the macron if the romanized word calls for it, but this is not the case with Shinto. --Torsodog (talk) 11:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's in authoritative English dictionaries without the macron as an English word. See Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster (on-line versions). Also see Encyclopaedia Britannica etc. The Hepburn romanization of the Japanese word has a macron; the English does not. Take a look at the first sentence of the article and you'll see our pattern: we use the English word for the subject, then present the Japanese script (神道) followed by the romanized form, which as you noted has the macron. Throughout the article, we use the English word. Fg2 (talk) 12:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
So since we are referencing the English word and not the Japanese, the macron isn't used. Got it. I had a feeling that was going on, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks. -Torsodog (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Another huge reason for not using the macron is that foreign words that are deemed common place tend to have punctuation marks like the macron stripped from the word. This is to make the word more accessible for English speaking nations. Another example would be résumé. While it is traditional to have accents on the 'e's in the word, it is very common place to see it written as resume. With the advancement of computer technology in the Western world, it is easier to type resume than résumé (unless you memorize the Alt+xxxx code that is). Going back to my original statement, since Shinto has no preferred English translation, it is left romanized and untranslated in English text. Regardless on the ramanization system used, it would have eventually be macron-less anyways since Japanese words are becoming more common place in English speech. Think Shogun or Tokyo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.161.86.254 (talk) 18:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)