Talk:Shinigami

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[edit] Is Shinigami really Japanese Folklore?

It sounds like shinigami described here is the importation of the Grim Reaper or Death. In which case shinigami sounds as much a part of Japanese folklore as Teenage Mutant Ninga turtles can be considered a part of USA folklore. Also "recent addition to Japanese folklore" sounds a bit contradictory. "Modern folklore" would sound like an oxymoron. --Tokek 07:22, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is not an importation. It's their own stuff, as far as I know. The article says WE can associate it with the grim reaper. It doesn't say it's the same thing. Those are entities from their folklore. There are some small entities that carry human souls from this plane to the spiritual plane. They are kami, and they're tied with shinto. And no, the kami are not the same thing as "god" either. It's a broader concept. You have to take a lot of care when associating certain concepts with concepts of our culture. In the end you will never have an exact equivalent. By the way, folklore is timeless. It is in no way associated with old times. There is no contradiction in "modern folklore", but if you're proposing a change in the article's premise, I really think that shouldn't happen.
I might be wrong, but that's what I think.--Kaonashi 15:59, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The part of the article that describes shinigami as death gods with scythes sounds a lot like it is related to the Grim Reaper. The article also mentions that souls are judged in the afterlife, which, if it was a concept from Japan, sounds a lot like Buddhist and Confucian concepts of the afterlife rather than a Shinto one. (Buddhism and Confucianism share a concept of the afterlife where the dead is taken to Yama to be judged. Yama in turn is imported from Hinduism.) There are at least three entities "shinigami" could refer to:
  1. The Grim Reaper. It is not unusual to translate him as "shinigami" in an English-to-Japanese translation. It is more common than transliteration. Source: EXCEED 英和辞典
  2. Fantastic Japanese cartoon characters. A lot of the author's creative input goes into the design of these characters, which makes them as much a part of Japanese folklore as "Sponge Bob Squarepants" is part of US folklore. The cartoon authors are free to encorporate non-Japanese concepts of Death as well. Generally speaking, not all cartoons are a good source of a country's "traditional folklore." Cartoon works that contain one or more shinigami characters (to name a few): Gegege no Kitarou, Gyaatoruzu, Shinigami, Shinigami-kun (← encorporates western concept of the Grim Reaper as well as Vampires, IIRC), Bleach (manga), Death Note, Full Moon o Sagashite
  3. In theory, a Shinto god. It is possible that Shintoism also has a god or two for death, since there are many gods in this religion. Source: (feel free to provide me with one, I don't have any.)
In any case, we should be cautious not to mix the above three concepts and, for example, present a shinigami from (2) above as a shinigami from (3) above. There's potential for confusion here, so let's be more cautious with our sources of information, that's all I'm trying to say.
--Tokek 23:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You say "It is not an importation. It's their own stuff, as far as I know." Do you mean that you know something that directly supports your belief, or that you just don't know anything that would contradict your belief? Because the former would mean you could contribute to the article with more information. (And by "It's their own stuff" I assume you are referring to the idea that shinigami comes from Japanese folklore.)
I don't know your sources, but are you making the Shinto connection based on the fact that the word "shinigami"uses the "kami" morpheme? If so, that is an unreasonable argument since "kami" is the most generic word possible for god in the Japanese language — even God is referred to as kami in Japanese translations of the Christian Bible. The -gami in shinigami does not prove a connection with Shintoism or Japanese folklore.
You say "The article says WE can associate it with the grim reaper. It doesn't say it's the same thing." I was not misunderstanding the article there but suggesting that the article itself was based on some misunderstandings.
You say "by the way, folklore is timeless. It is in no way associated with old times." I thought it was obvious that the article was using the not uncommonly used definition of folklore, def. 1 found here ("The traditional beliefs..." one). If the article wanted to say something else, it shouldn't need to be prevented from using a more suitable and less misleading word instead.
--Tokek 14:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am concerned that the article is describing shinigami as if it were a clearly defined character that exists in Japanese folklore. I think it would be fair for me to rewrite the article by removing most descriptions that is not referring to a specific shinigami character in a Japanese work, and descriptions that seem to suggest without any reference that the concept of shinigami is a part of Japanese folklore. The shinigami characters in mangas are certainly unique, however that in no way excludes the possibility that the concept was a fairly modern importation from other culture(s) since not all concepts in manga are based on traditional Japanese culture. Even a shinigami that is mentioned in a rakugo (the oldest usage of "shinigami" I could find so far) seems to be an importation of a German fairy tale.

In fact a Daijirin dictionary entry (page in Japanese) for "shinigami" does not make a reference to folklore or any specific religion, and that dictionary is not a half-assed one either. Jim Breen's WWWJDIC does not even contain an entry. I don't know of any online Japanese dictionaries in English that is perceived to be more authoritative. This page (in Japanese) suggests that the shinigami concept in Japan came from a German fairy tale that has been recorded by the brothers Grimm.

--Tokek 14:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Traditional Japanese mythology does indeed include an afterlife (though it's true that it's not as emphasized as some): Yomi, the "shadowy land of the dead." It appears, for instance, in the myth where Izanagi attempted first to retrieve, and subsequently to escape from, Izanami. This particular myth explains human death as a result of Izanami's fury. There are also a variety of heavens and hells, many of which show Buddhist influences.

"Shinigami" itself is a bit trickier. They do not, to the best of my knowledge, exist as such in traditional legend, nor is there any god named Shinigami. The closest specific entities of traditional myth would be, I believe, Amatsu-Mikaboshi (Shinto's god of evil), Ekibyougami (god of illness), and Ikiryo (god of malice); if we stretch a bit and include Buddhism, Amida (Buddha of Eternal Life) might also qualify, though he's a benevolent figure.

The word itself appears to have been coined to refer to an imported concept. The thing is, its usage has evolved (or rather, been blended with Shinto and Buddhist tropes). It's used to translate "Grim Reaper" or "Angel of Death" or other such concepts, but it's also used... well, as the article states. It isn't traditional, but it's become widespread, and it is, in its current form, rather unique to Japan. If you can think of a better word than "folklore," that's fine; I couldn't.

So basically... it's both your #1 and #3. (Also #2, of course; those characters draw on a well-known generalized concept, modified by the specific input of the writers/artists. Much like "Dracula" draws on the general concept of "vampire," modified by the specific input of Bram Stoker. Be careful not to dismiss the folklore because of the pop-culture usage.) Shimeru 22:39, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

The Shinigami article in the Japanese Wiki, ja:死神, actually points to Death (personification) in the English Wiki; doesn't seem to say that shinigami is from Japanese folklore, and only links to Izanami (however, shinigami has become folkloric in modern pop culture)--Confuzion 23:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The state of this article

I don't think people who can't tell that Shinigami is integral and original to Japanese folklore should be working on the article. As it stands now, it's one paragraph followed by a bunch of examples with excessive descriptions. On that note, we should really consider taking those extensive explanations out (half of which surpass the actual article's length), as examples are (90% of the time) simply links. 24.126.199.129 09:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

So wait, you're making the assumption that "shinigami" IS "integral and original to Japanese folklore"? Did you not read the rest of the discussion on this page and look at the evidence and links provided? There seems to be a pretty strong argument that the term "shinigami" is not, in fact, folkloric, and is rather a modern invention that is common to current pop culture. In which case, the examples described in the article are probably entirely appropriate, as it gives the reader a good understanding of what "shinigami" is, because, well, those media examples basically *are* what "shinigami" is That is, to understand the term "shinigami", one must understand its use in media and pop culture. --ACDragonMaster 02:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] importance

downgraded importance to low —Preceding unsigned comment added by MightyAtom (talk • contribs) (1 September 2006)

[edit] "Requested photo" tag

Is that a joke? They sort of don't exist, don't see how we're supposed to get a photo of one. --tjstrf 02:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Not to mention, shinigami tend to be portrayed quite differently across different series. Though on the other hand, perhaps a few images of different portrayals of shinigami for comparison may be a good idea? --ACDragonMaster 22:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Probably would violate fair use. If we could find someone dressed as a generic shinigami that might work, but then they'd probably be stealing the outfit from some manga/anime/whatever. I'll just remove it. --tjstrf 22:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Would it? I know the article on the Bleach shinigami has several images in it from the series to illustrate things like the different uniforms on such, so would a few images intended for reference and comparison still be violating fair use? --ACDragonMaster 02:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Judging from the extraordinarily lengthy discussions and ultimate resolution of the issue on Talk:Lolicon, it would. On that page, at least, they decided that a specific licensed property could not be used to represent the class that licensed property belongs to. I haven't read the fair use talk pages themselves in depth due to lack of time (My current archive-reading is WT:RFA's huge archive set), but I've seen nothing to oppose the conclusion drawn in that specific instance. I could of course be totally wrong. --tjstrf 02:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that a bleach shinigami picture would be faire use to illustrate the Bleach section. I agree that it's virtually impossible to find a picture that would fit in the upper-right corner, but illustrating one or two sections, eg the most well-known, or the first issued, would certainly make the article less dry.--SidiLemine 11:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why so much on media references?

This article barely has anything on the death gods themselves, mainly only the pop. references. there needs to be more on the death gods and less on the pop. references.Angelofdeath275 01:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The popular references define the idea. It's a psuedo-mythological subject of modern origin. --tjstrf 02:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Even so, there should be more "factual" text. What is the first appearence of the term? Did it gain notoriety in mainstream (non-pop) media? Is there any consensus on what they generally are? Etc. I agree about most of the discussion (that they are not traditionnal), but this is still not encyclopedic. There is some talk about moving all the pop refs from Death(personification) to their own page, to de-clutter a little. I suggest this be done, and then the examples be moved there. We could then merge what remains of this article with Death(personification) (main objection right now os that the latter is too cluttered already), and everyone would be happy. Opinions?--SidiLemine 15:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Main problem with that is that the term encompasses personifications of death, but has become rather more broad in application. It's more along the lines of pixies or elves as a type of supernatural being. The first appearance of the term would be difficult to verify, I think, but as to notoriety, absolutely. It's a broadly-known, if sometimes ill-defined, term. Will see about some cleanup a little later on. Shimeru 16:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I see. If they do anything else than taking souls from the world of the living, they're not personifications of death. Isn't there other modern mythological creatures that we could take example on? --SidiLemine 16:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure. The most prominent is probably the gremlin. This is somewhat newer. Am seeing whether I can track down any English sources. Shimeru 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A reference of sorts

http://www.manganews.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1328.html Not much, but better than nothing. In particular:

According to literary critic Masao Azuma, Japanese peoples' perspectives on Death originate from those of the Chinese. "There was originally no Death worship in Japan. In China, there are characters similar to the Grim Reaper, called "Somujo" or "Koshinin," whose job was to take spirits to "Meifu (The Land of Death)." Death is like a government official. In the Konjaku Monogatarishu (a collection of folk stories dating back to the Heian period), the oni (demon) plays a similar role.

On the other hand, in "Ehon Hyakumonogatari (A Hundred Stories Picture Book" (author: Shunsen Takehara, publisher: Kokusho Kankoukai), written in the latter part of the Edo period, Death is portrayed in a different light than today. Here, Death is an evil spirit who haunts passersby and convinces them to die. "During the Meiji period, the European image of Death with a black hood concealing a skull and holding a scythe was imported into Japan, and was later characterized as the Grim Reaper," says Azuma. Even the Japanese rakugo (comical monologue) "Shinigami (Death)," widely accepted to be the first definitive portrayal of the Japanese Grim Reaper, is thought to be an interpretation of Italian operas and Grimm's Fairy Tales. The Japanese Grim Reaper is a mix of East and West. Kotengu 06:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some source material is needed

I noticed this article barely referenced any sources at all. Can we cite some decent material?

Piercetp 03:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Define decent. WP:RS-worthy? WP:N-worthy? WP:V-worthy? Most manga-related "scholarship" that is not analysis of its cultural impact consists of curious people looking stuff up and then writing about it on their blogs/forums. Neither of which are citeable. If you want pagerefs to the manga that show they use the term, that would certainly be possible, but it would just be referencing for referencing's sake. --tjstrf talk 03:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
IMHO any article posted in Wikipedia should meet all the criteria. Maybe nothing too rigerous but I think that if an article is to be taken seriously than some source material should be required. Piercetp 00:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other death deities section

Would Yuki Jourou ("Snow Harlot"), a snow spirit that kills for pleasure and sex, fall into this category? Chris 07:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not meiji, maybe not western at all.

Um...two points.

One, if Shinigami were imported from the West "during the Meiji era", how the hell did Edo-period playwright Chikamatsu Monzaemon mention them (the word shows up twice in "Lovers' Suicide at Amijima")?

More likely, it was imported during the Warring States era--when, remember, Europe was ony a century past the plague and Death and his Dances were still a comparatively common artistic motif.

Two, are we absolutely certain it's not Shinto? Lots and lots of Shinto gods never show up in the Kojiki and similar works. And Korean Shamanism, which is probably a related religion, has a god called Saja or the Death Messenger that, like Shinigami, functions as a psychopomps and usually has the personality of a bullying minor official attached to the criminal courts.

Unfortunately, though all of the above is based on sources, the conclusions I'm drawing from them are based on my God-given reason, not merely parroting someone else, so it counts as "Original Research." I hate that rule sometimes. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 20:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)