Talk:Shine (film)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Film Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Films. This project is a central gathering of editors working to build comprehensive and detailed articles for film topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the priority scale.
Editing Guidelines Please remember these guidelines when editing a film article: If a non-film article already exists with the name of the film that you are trying to create an article for, disambiguate and use (film) in the title: Film Title (film) For more information see: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films) When writing an article about a particular film, the general format should be a concise lead section, followed by a plot summary of no more than 900 words, production details, a cast list, a reception section, and references. Create an Infobox that tells all pertinent information about the film.
Additional Information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related task forces (nations and regions): Australian cinema task force

Portal	Shine (film) is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as start-class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Australian cinema.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

Contents 1 About the criticism section 2 Fair use for sample of Piano Concerto no 3 3 Trauma model 4 Rush's Playing of Music 5 Real music that Helfgott played before his breakdown. 6 Musical credits section 7 Long quotes 8 Fair use rationale for Image:Shine ver1.jpg 9 Criticism section too large

[edit] About the criticism section

The criticism section is all one sided. It is not objective in pointing out alternative views to the criticism. Furthermore, it is typical of movies to dramatize, but given, this might be all apparent to viewers. Either way, who cares what his sister and mother have said. The movie might be more from the perspective of David or the director's. I for one think it is someone's own choice to do what they will with schooling. Lots of kids are sent to boarding school or similar schools for forming careers. It is David's life, not his father's.

On the subject of David's music virtuosity, the argument from authority does not have firm ground. This is to say that the authority has not been established as good authority and the authority sources are not evident in the article.

Well, now the criticism section is thoroughly one-sided the other way. We have two very long rebuttals without knowing the initial criticism. As to the question of good authority, the article is correct in saying that Dutton speaks for many critics. As a matter of fact he speaks for ALL critics as you will not find a single review from a reputable critic that praises Helfgott's pianism (here's a typical review from the New York Times http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E2DD1230F935A35750C0A961958260&n). I am a musician myself with music degrees and I don't know of anyone who thinks Helfgott is a remotely tolerable musician, let alone a great one. He is regarded as the Paris Hilton of music -- famous, but not actually respected by peers for having talent.

I know this sounds very harsh. But listen to his recordings alongside one of the greats, and you'll hear that his performances are not only full of mistakes but are devoid of interpretation. He struggles just to get through the piece. Most first-year university students play better, but haven't had a movie made about them and so won't get recording contracts and concert bookings. So people should know that this film mythologizes an emperor with no clothes.99.233.79.5 15:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The anonymous editor who suggested "argument from authority" is simply wrong.. Firstly, it is not "from authority".. Dutton is cited merely to exemplify an overwhelmingly held viewpoint. Secondly, it is not an "argument" in the normal sense.. it is simply a notable criticism, not any kind of 'proof' of lack of virtuosity. Zargulon 10:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use for sample of Piano Concerto no 3

A sample of the Piano Concerto no 3 is linked to from this page. However, I don't think that the fair use rationale is correct, given that Rachmaninoff and this precise recording are not associated with the movie (the fair use rationale would probably be stronger if the sample was actually taken from the movie, but nothing indicates that it is the case). Any opinion ? Schutz 22:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

"Shine's irresponsible glamourisation of Helfgott's ability has attracted a new audience who are not deeply involved in the sound of Helfgott's playing, thereby drawing deserved public attention away from pianists who are more talented and disciplined."

So what? That's the music business. We can all think of musicians who have made a successful career despite limited talent, due to effective marketing, charisma, showmanship, "star quality", luck etc, and very talented musicians who scrape a living as music teachers.

Exile 08:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

True, but it's still a valid and notable criticism of "Shine".. What's your point, Exile? Zargulon 14:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The Ashkenazy performance of Rachmaninoff should be retained, but a performance of it by Helfgott added, so that people can hear for themselves. Anyone who hears Helgott side-by-side with a reputable musician will immediately understand the criticisms. It's night and day. Helfgott's playing isn't just mediocre, it's embarrassing. So yes, it is "irresponsible glamourisation" - it's akin to portraying some amateur athlete or dancer as a respected superstar just because they have schizophrenia and a feel-good story. 74.99.213.103 19:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trauma model

Goobergeffer removed my internal link about the Trauma model of mental disorders. I have a lot of work to do in the real world and I’m removing this page from my Watchlist. I hope, however, that if s/he or another editor removes the trauma link again s/he will state the reasons in this talk page. ―Cesar Tort 20:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rush's Playing of Music

Does anyone have any evidence that Rush actually played the Rach 3? First of all, Rush is not playing Helfgott in the parts of the film involving the concerto. Second, the credits list Helfgott, not Rush, as the performer for the piano music. I'm thinking that in fact Rush was his own hand double, but that what we hear is actually Helfgott playing. Msridhar 03:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Getting credited as hand double hardly is the same thing as playing the piece itself. Playing The Rach 3 would require years and years years of training. Being a hand double is the equivalent of lip-synching. So this bit of trivia is a huge leap in logic.74.99.213.103 07:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the claim about Rush playing Rachmaninoff, and added the best citation I could find about Rush's playing. Msridhar 16:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This is still highly dubious. To say that Rush "did all of the filmed piano playing" and he "learned to play the piano for this role" suggests that he's a capable pianist and it's his music on the soundtrack. Untrue. In the source cited, the interviewer is the one who claims Rush played at a high level. Though Rush doesn't deny it, he only claims that he had a tutor and he wanted to be convincing. Like any actor playing a musician, he took piano lessons and learned enough to fake playing. Adrien Brody did it for The Pianist, Tom Hulce did it for Amadeus, even Russell Crowe took violin lessons for Master and Commander. None of them would've been able to perform a concert of standard repertoire. It's ironic that as the film thoroughly exaggerates the abilities of Helfgott, we are now exaggerating the abilities of the actor who played Helgott.74.99.213.103 22:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to edit as you see fit; I have no desire to exaggerate Rush's skills as a pianist. I found some more info here [1], stating that Rush learned piano as a child and picked it up again for the film, so what I've written should be corrected in some way. Msridhar 00:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real music that Helfgott played before his breakdown.

I went to a Rachmaninoff concert a couple of years ago and the program mentioned something about the fact that Helfgott didn't have a breakdown after playing Rach 3 but it was actually another Rachmaninoff's composition.

I'm looking for a reliable source on this but found nothing. Does anyone know about this? if true I think it is worth mentioning here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.212.160.239 (talk) 05:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Musical credits section

Hi, I think the Musical Credits section is too bulky but not sure how to downsize it or whether to remove it entirely. Zargulon 00:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Long quotes

Hmm, is there a tag that indicates "very long quotes/text blocks, edition needed" or something? Medico80 (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Shine ver1.jpg

Image:Shine ver1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section too large

This article is dominated by its criticism section. This is a work of fiction and the events have been dramatized. Its not a documentary. See Braveheart. See A Beautiful Mind. See almost any Hollywood movie which is "based" on a true story. This article should be more about the film and less about the "inaccuracies". DavidRF (talk) 14:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)