Category talk:Shinigami in Bleach

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[edit] Superhuman strength?

Who added this category? Shinigami don't have superhuman strength. Unless you count the fact that they're invisible to humans. But that doesn't say anything about their strenth, just about their combat ability. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Shinigami don't have superstrength, but the Vizard do. Lord Sesshomaru
... Lord Sesshomaru
Shinigami all have superhuman strength and agility compared to normal humans. --tjstrf talk 21:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Why did Someguy0830 then remove it? Perhaps he was unaware of something. Can I place it back? Lord Sesshomaru
Because there's disagreement about what exactly qualifies a person as meriting the category. For instance, nobody will disagree that Ikkaku and Chad have superhuman strength, but whether Hinamori does is a bit more contentious. By Bleach standards she doesn't, even though she would be much stronger than a normal human. --tjstrf talk 23:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that superhuman strength also meant "stronger than real-life human limits". The article itself says: "It is the ability for any creature to be stronger than normally possible given their proportions." Every shinigami can have the capability of strength surpassing normal standards. The question is: do they wish to train on it? They are "able", whether are not they want to utilise such power since they're are godly. For the Category:Dragon Ball superhuman characters, on the bottom, it is categorized with Category:Anime and manga characters who can fly, though not every Dragon Ball-related character flew. The explanation there is: "although it should be noted that not all characters listed here performed Bukujutsu (flight) in the series, it is said that every being in the fictional universe of Dragon Ball can learn Bukujutsu with sufficient power and proper training ...". Arale Norimaki never flew in Dr. Slump or in the Dragon Ball series, but she can learn flight because she has the capability. Heck, at least everyone in Dragon Ball does have the capability, just not the usual knowledge on how-to — anything is possible in the Dragon World. Does this register as precedence? Lord Sesshomaru
An excellent argument as to exactly why it's a trivial attribute. Otherwise, I'm not catching your point here. --tjstrf talk 00:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Let me say this quick since I have to leave: point being, all Bleach Shinigami are "capable" (or have the power within) of super-speed, super-strength, usually having a special ability that other shinigami can not attain; all shinigami can "air walk/air hop" (self-levitation?) therefore, this is what I mean when I say that the anime & manga super-strength category should be placed there — all shinigami have the power within, or just can, use superhuman stength-related abilities and attributed powers akin to it. Lord Sesshomaru
That argument makes no sense whatsoever. I suppose I should be in Category:Wikipedian guitarists because I'm capable of learning to play the guitar? It's also utterly wrong, as different shinigami have different natural limitations.
The real argument here has nothing to do with that anyway. The argument is if the category even applies at all. In other words, is the strength that shinigami as a whole (rather than specific individuals) demonstrate superhuman perse, or simply that of a high-level athlete? --tjstrf talk 01:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I hate it when I get too off-topic. Never mind what I was trying to express. Now, not to sound pretty opinion-based on this, you could add the category and explain at the top that due to the fact that a shinigami can resist such things that a normal human being can not, that makes them superhuman by race. Tjstrf, you mentioned earlier that Momo Hinamori was not superhuman by "Bleach standards" but by, and I quote, "... much stronger than a normal human." Yes, that part is true. In this sense, humans can't ever be stronger than shinigami. Superhuman strength doesn't necessarily always mean "strongness", but as as super strength in: resistance, endurance, stamina, vitality, invulnerability (notably to Kempachi) and last but not least, super-strength clearly is depicted when a shinigami's zanpakutō can increase in size, power and, like you told me yourself, their bankai is unleashed. Automatically, that's superhuman strength only a "superhuman" can perform. Kind of like the popular Goku going Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan, correct? Earlier when I mentioned "capability", I really meant that a shinigami does have super-strength in those examples: stamina, endurance, etc., is this clear to you? Lord Sesshomaru
Enough, only some are super strong. What you're talking about is durability, resiliency, etc. It's not the same. The fact is that very few shinigami ever display strength that you wouldn't expect from a well-trained athlete. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that because of Bleach's power escalation, it's really hard to tell.
Consider the following, for instance: Human Ichigo is stronger than Tatsuki, and both are in peak physical condition for humans. According to Urahara though, Ichigo became much capable when in his spirit body than he had been in his flesh body, even when he was just a normal human soul with no powers. Ichigo as a plus, in turn, was nowhere near as capable as a shinigami. So we have a sequence going where Shinigami > Ichigo as a plus > Human Ichigo > Tatsuki, which would suggest that all shinigami are super-human, but quite a few of the humans are "super-human" as well, so it's a very difficult call. --tjstrf talk 06:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
You could have just told me durability, etc., is not the same, Someguy. I can tell when someone is telling me to shut up nicely, though I still don't appreciate it in that manner of which you used. I am trying to make this as transparent and less argumentative as I can without telling anyone "Enough". In regards, who else besides Hinamori does not demonstrate the ability? Should we really exclude the cat. because of one shinigami that did not display it? Lord Sesshomaru
Hanataro. --tjstrf talk 07:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we add the anime/manga super strength cat. individually then? Lord Sesshomaru
1st Division lieutenant, 4th, the list goes on. Very few ever display superhuman strength. As for the enough thing, you're arguing about a trivial cat for another cat. Really, it's quite pointless. You have a logical progression of events. Suggest subcat for cat > Not all characters apply > subcat doesn't apply. So yes, add in character pages where notable (i.e. more than lifting a rock). — Someguy0830 (T | C) 07:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Not unless it's a defining trait/their most notable power, no, don't add it. --tjstrf talk 07:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Or use tjstrf's denial version of requirement. Either way, just don't slap it everywhere. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 07:22, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Provide me a complete list then of every Bleach character with that obvious capability and I will do it in the morning. If it's not too much trouble. I'm tired now. Lord Sesshomaru
Ikkaku Madarame, Yachiru Kusajishi, Yoruichi Shihouin: only them, and Yoruichi is debatable. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 07:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Poor Chad's being forgotten again... isn't it sad? I believe Ichigo also qualifies, though it's not a particularly notable skill for him compared to his speed or his reiatsu level. --tjstrf talk 08:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I thought he was covered. Anywho, I was focusing on the shinigami, and Ichigo could probably qualify seeing as how he blocked one of Yammy's punches. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 09:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, overslept! ;) Is that everyone or should I wait for another response? And as for the Arrancar categories? Lord Sesshomaru

I got Ichigo, Madarame and the other noted shinigami. Now just tell me what individual Vizard / Arrancar share the power? Yammy is one I believe, though I need confirmation. Lord Sesshomaru

Yes to Yammy, who has shown plenty of examples of superhuman strength. Possibly Kenpachi, Komamura, and Noitora. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 20:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)