Talk:Shen Kuo

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Featured article star Shen Kuo is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 28, 2007.

Contents

[edit] GA Nomination

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

[edit] Suggestions

The complaints I am voicing here are pretty much the same as in the last two articles (Su Song and Zhang Heng), with an addtional issue with images.

  • You need to indicate the name of the volumes in addition to the number for the Needham references.
  • You should add at least two more images if possible.

There are several problems with the prose in a few sections.

  • Unlike the other two, this article only has a lot of parantheses in the quotations. Nevertheless, I still think many of these should be removed. I don't think that their removal will affact the integrity of the quotations.
  • You are mixing Wade-Giles and Pinyin romanization. The majority of the article is in Pinyin, but you must convert the Wade-Giles into Pinyin before the article is passed. If you need assistance in this regard please let me know, as I can help convert the stuff.
  • I also feel that this article is too dependant on large block quotes. I think that the quotes should either be shortened so that they do not comprise the vast majority of The Scientific Writing and Theory sections and Philosophy section, or that these sections could be expanded to reduce their dependance on the quotations. Having the large quotes in the writing section, is in my opinion not an issue, that the topic addresses the writing itself.Zeus1234 04:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have indicated the names of the Needham volumes, added two more images, fixed many of the parentheses, and along with getting rid of some of the block quotes, provided more extensive prose to explain the ones I decided to keep. I also got rid of any random Wade-giles spelling, although the ones I have decided to keep are from direct quotations of Needham's books, and should not be reworded for sake of faithfulness to the actual quotations.PericlesofAthens 03:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The improvements are good. The article now meritcs GA status. Congratulations!Zeus1234 05:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed FAC

Ok, this is a great article, but the reason it has failed to be promoted for FA status is because one had problem with quotes of Shen's writing being in the article (saying that it added nothing to the article). I completely disagree. However, it just dawned on me, this entire time I could have easily placed all of the quotes in the Dream Pool Essays article that I created. That would have been a reasonable compromise. I will do that now.--PericlesofAthens 23:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's really stupid that one person can entirely derail a nomination. I personally think that while some of the quotes could be moved over, some of them should stay in the article. Zeus1234 00:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I think a good compromise would be to pare them down a lot, and keep them directly relevant to the subject at hand. (Where's the failed FAC tag? It provides a handy link to the nomination..) --Fang Aili talk 03:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless, all of the quotes have been moved into the Dream Pool Essays article, and any valuable information from the quotes have been converted into prose explanations.--PericlesofAthens 04:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and Fang, the link to the nomination page is hidden in the Good Article tag.--PericlesofAthens 04:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I think at least one of the quotes should be put back, just to show how he wrote about scientific subjects. The eclipse quote in particular is quite enlightening. The article was much better before.Zeus1234 04:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, apparently the Featured Article Director (user:Raul654) did not think so or share your sentiment, otherwise the article would have stayed as a candidate for at least an entire week (nominated May 1, booted on May 7).--PericlesofAthens 04:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it failed due to the quote, but rather because I was the only one who supported the article's promotion. Still, a bit bizarre it wasn't kept for longer. I do think that one quote would not hurt the article in any way. Perhaps renominate with one quote, and if people complain, then remove it. It certainly isn't the same as having tons of quotes as before. Zeus1234 06:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is really much better without the quotes. Because they're translations, we don't really learn anything about Shen's writing style, and they were sooooo long and filled with unneeded information. As for the rest of the article, there is a lot of awkward prose in there, for example:

From about 1040 AD, Shen's family moved around from Sichuan province to the international seaport at Xiamen as Shen's father accepted new posts of governance in each new territory. He observed not only the various towns and rural lands of China, but also the various aspects of his father's engagement in administrative governance.

It's not entirely clear what this is referring to. Did he move from Sichuan province to Xiamen, or did he move 'around' within an area defined by these two places? What were his father's posts? There's a double use of 'various' in the second sentence. 'Towns and rural lands' is clunky, and 'engagement in administrative governance' could be replaced with 'administrative career', or even just 'job'. The article's prose needs to be gone through with a fine toothcomb. Only then will it be feature-worthy.--Nydas(Talk) 08:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Nydas. I changed those sentences you had a problem with, and furthermore reworded an awkward sentence in the "Geological theory" section. However, like you said, this article needs a lot of copyediting review. I think I will call upon the magical League of Copyeditors for this one. Lol. :)--PericlesofAthens 12:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Since there's a list of all of the Dream Pool Essays subjects on its own article, they need not be included here (lists like that are generally frowned upon when it comes to FAs anyway). Cliff smith 02:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Very good point, I have kept that list in the Dream Pool Essays article, while deleting it from Shen Kuo's article. The article looks smoother now, too.--PericlesofAthens 03:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I just added some more valuable information to Shen's "Career and later life" section, outlining his professional relationship with Wang Anshi and his diplomatic embassy to the Liao Dynasty.--PericlesofAthens 04:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I just made some major improvements to the article. Have a look see...--PericlesofAthens 09:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I just edited the Scholary achievements section by placing Mathematics into its own sub-section. I am furthermore relieved to say that I believe everything that needs to be in Shen's article is definitely included, and at 49 kilobites, his article is about 1 kilobite shy of being either a bit too long or questionable enough to break up into separate articles (which would be unneccessary)--PericlesofAthens 22:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] X hundred years before Europe

There are too many examples of things being hundreds of years before Europe, especially in the introduction. This is arguably Eurocentric, given that stuff about Newton or whoever won't have 'hundreds of years before China' all over the place.--Nydas(Talk) 15:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. When I edit over a long period of time I really don't notice that type of thing, yet I suppose you are right.--PericlesofAthens 19:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I edited one example of what you said, but really, all of the others (and there are only a few as far as I can see) are necessary within understanding context. Such as comparing the intensive astronomical map plotting of planetary motions to the later work of Tycho Brahe (a good comparison).--PericlesofAthens 19:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Btw, Isaac Newton's wiki article is incredibly well-written.--PericlesofAthens 19:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Nydas, I think this is acceptable for cases where things were demonstrably independently discovered in two locations. Similarly, the article about Daimler references Benz. I think if discoveries had been made in Asia after they were made in Europe, we would similarly reference it, and likewise for any other region of the world. It may be true that some of the articles about Tycho Brahe etc. do not fully take into account earlier developments in China. This should be rectified. 82.71.48.158 21:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article Status

I just want to say thank you to everyone who supported this article, my very first article brought up to featured article status! It was a pain in the butt and required lots of patience and hard work, but it was worth it. And in the afterlife, Shen Kuo totally owes me. Lol.--PericlesofAthens 19:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Today's Featured Article

Awesome! I'm glad that this article has been chosen to be featured on the main page! I'm also thrilled that my work will be advertised a bit. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a remarkable piece of work which no doubt will continue to grow and even improve. Hats off to you. Alpheus 04:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ahistorical drawing???

The drawing of Shen Kuo is unreferenced and is apparently based on nothing more than the author's imaginings. If so, I believe that it is inappropriate to publish this in our encyclopedia. We should leave the fantasy to the History Channel and stick to the facts -- and if there is no visual record of how he looked, we need to leave it at that. Madman 03:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Not quite. It's based off of a sculpted bust of Shen's head. I wouldn't expect you to know that unless you read the Featured Article Candidate page for this article, so I'll let that slide. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
If it is based on a bust of Shen Kuo, it should say that somewhere, describing when the bust was created as well. We need to reference images just like we reference words. Thanks, Madman 04:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Found the source

The picture comes from this source here: www.phil.pku.edu.cn, or the Department of Philosophy at the University of Peking. The specific image is found here.

Unfortunately they do not date the bust, but it looks modern, 20th century. Chinese in pre-modern China always had their portraits taken in the form of painting, never with busts really. Sculpting was not as highly revered by the cultured scholar official as painting was. Statues were reserved for more religious and aesthetic purposes (although tomb sculptures and statues were made to reflect how personal attendants and real soldiers actually looked). I tried to edit the page to include this web source, but I am blocked from doing so, since it is being featured on the main page at the moment.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional comment

I have to agree with madman. I think the lack of an 11th century source for the bust from which the drawing was produced should be clearly stated in the image caption. Something along the lines of, "this drawing is based on a bust of unknown providence and may not reflect Shen Kuo's true likeness". At least as a footnote. 82.71.48.158 21:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The bust clearly looks modern. The portrait sculpture was I think completely unknown in China at this date. We should caption the drawing "modern artist's impression" or similar, and not in a note. Johnbod 21:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I have added "modern artist's impression" to the caption. Sorry, but we need to be straightforward. Madman 23:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Good. 82.71.48.158 01:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Front page error

On the main page, it says that the guy lived from 960–1279, though the information in the actual article does not show this outrageous number. I guess that's one way to get people to look inside! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.190.174.43 (talk) 04:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Those are the dates for the Song Dynasty. Zagalejo^^^ 05:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
On the main page, it says that the guy lived from 960–1279
Haha! Man. He must have found the Taoist elixir of immortality...and then ran out of it when he was about three hundred and nineteen years old. Lol! That's ok, we all make mistakes. It is misleading to the eye though, since the main page does not give the dates for his life, yet the article does.--Pericles of AthensTalk 08:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] True vs. magnetic north

Did Shen try to measure longitude by the difference between true and magnetic north, and if so, did he succeed? To measure travels east or west would have been a very important advance, and seems well within his capabilities once he had accurately established true north as opposed to the position of Polaris.70.15.116.59 17:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response number 1

After explaining the early history of map making and grid making in Chinese cartography from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD, Needham states on pages 542-544 of his 3rd volume:

The mention of astronomical aspects of the map grid raises at one the question to what extent the Chinese cartography of Phei Hsiu [Pinyin: Pei Xiu] and Chang Heng [Pinyin: Zhang Heng] was keyed to celestial phenomena. In this respect there would seem to have been little difference between the Chinese and the Greeks, for while the latter used the gnomon shadow and the length of the solstitial day to determine latitude, the former were also perfectly aware that the shadow length varied continuously in the north-south line. The Chou Li [Pinyin: Zhou Li ] says that the Surveyors (Thu Fang Shih) [Pinyin: Tu Fang Shi] concern themselves with the method of the gnomon shadow template for determining the sun's shadow length, and by its aid measure the earth, constituting fiefs and principalities, i.e. presumably fixing their boundaries. As for longitude, the Chinese were no worse off than the Greeks. Its measurement with any degree of accuracy did not become possible until the 18th century, with the invention of the marine chronometer. Throughout antiquity and the middle ages, dead reckoning was the only way [and then Needham's B footnote refers to ancient Chinese odometers from the Han Dynasty.

According to Needham in his 3rd volume, on page 357, about celestial longitude:

Traditional Chinese astronomy never extended the ecliptic degrees to form 'segments' of celestial longitude radiating from the pole of the ecliptic in the same way as they thought of the hsiu [lunar mansion] as segments of what we should call right ascension...What the Chinese wished to determine was not, of course, as Maspero well says, the celestial longitude of the observed star, but the longitude of the point of intersection of its hour-circle with the ecliptic. Movements of sun and moon on the ecliptic were thus also reduced to terms of equatorial hsiu.

I will write more once I read more about developments in the following Tang and Song dynasties. Hold on to your bootstraps!--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

In the book by Chinese Studies in the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology Dainian Fan and Robert Sonné Cohen, they have this to say of Shen Kuo's work with latitude on page 431:

Shen Kuo (1031-1096) and Guo Shoujing (1231-1316) are representative of Song and Yuan astronomers. In On the Armillary Sphere (Hun Yi Yi) Shen Kuo noted, "In a distance of only 500 li between north and south, there is more than one degree deviation in the North Pole." During the process of compiling and editing the Works and Days Calendar (Shou Shi Li), Guo Shoujing measured on the spot the height of the North Pole at 27 places with different latitudes. The data varied from 15 degrees (in the South China Sea) to 65 degrees (in the North China Sea). Obviously, they accepted the deviation between the height of the North Pole in the south and in the north as natural and did not consider it worthwhile to search for its causes. Great scientists like Shen Kuo and Guo Shoujing were not even aware that this is an important matter related to the shape of the earth. If a spherical earth hypothesis had existed in ancient China, this could not have happened.

So although Shen Kuo reasoned that celestial bodies such as the sun and moon were spherical, it appears he held the old Chinese notion that "heaven is round, earth is flat." A shame. The text goes on to say that the first Chinese person to introduce the idea of a round earth into the Chinese intellectual sphere was Xu Guangqi in the early 17th century, after being tutored by Matteo Ricci.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming convention

Maybe to English speakers it sounds like chinky-ching-chong but Shen is the surname and Kuo is the first informal name. This article continually refers to him as Kuo. That would be like saying in the Albert Einstein article, "Albert did this and that." Or referring to Thomas Edison as Tom. Or Linnaeus as Carl. Or Washington as Georgie. Using a first name is for best friends and your mom. And Kuo is rarely (if ever) a Chinese surname. Maybe if this was an Icelandic article using the first name would be fine, I don't think it is. Fix it. .:DavuMaya:. 18:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Lol. Thanks for bringing this to attention. I fixed all the loose and single "Kuos" lingering about without a "Shen" before it, simply replacing them with "Shen" or "Shen Kuo" or "him" or "he." If you can find anymore, feel free to fix them.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

I just made some major edits to the article, creating a new sub-section and expanding several others. I hope people enjoy the read!--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)