Talk:Sheikh Abdul Halim

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[edit] Succession box

User:Apoivre, why have you removed the succession box for Chechen presidents? —thames 17:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Two reasons. 1. Redundancy: the box doesn't contain any info that's not in the article(s) 2. AFAIK, infoboxes like these are used for legitimate governments. If you put an infobox for "presidents" of Ichkeria, why don't put one for the Dominion of Melchizedek, etc? There are lots of wannabe governments out there --apoivre 12:00, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, unlike the Dominion of Melchizedek, the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria did exist as a fully sovereign state from 1991 to 1998, when Russia invaded. It had government agencies, documents, passports, currency, et cetera.

According to Wikipedia, sovereignty "is the exclusive right to exercise supreme authority over a geographic region, group of people, or oneself". Of the three, only the latter may be true of the CRI for most of the period you're referring to.--apoivre 17:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This is similar to other sovereign if unrecognized nations, like Transnistria, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, and even Taiwan - the world doesn't consider it to exist, even if it is obviously there.

I'm not so sure the ex-Soviet breakaway territories should have it either but anyway - Transnistria, Abkhazia, Nagorno Karabakh and Taiwan have one thing Ichkeria doesn't - territory (the "geographic region" part in the Britannica/Wikipedia definition of sovereignty above). Although I'm not so sure about, say, "exclusivity" in the case of NK (vis-à-vis Armenia). --apoivre 17:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Now, since 1998, the Russians have toppled the government, but it still exists in a manner similar to the Palestinian Authority - it has control over people, resources, et cetera. It may not be a country, but it is a political entity, and it does have a president.

It doesn't have control over people, resources, et cetera - unless you know something nobody else does.--apoivre 17:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

As for the redundancy: most articles on Wikipedia using succession boxes could be deemed redundant. However, in case you do not want to read all the text involved, you can skip down to the bottom and continue along. This is particularly useful with Presidents of the United States and Prime Ministers of Canada and such. I don't have time to read all of that stuff, which undoubtably would mention the successor and predecessor. So: I go to the succession box. Woohoo. - Gavin 12:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

If you click on the "President of the United States" in the relevant infobox you get this page with a lot of useful info (requirements to hold office, elections, presidential powers, order of succession, etc), facts, trivia and links. If you click on "Pres. of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria" in the infobox I removed, you get back to the "Ichkeria" page. (Same with Transnistria - I'm too lazy to check others). If you can start a page on "President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria" with as much useful content as that on the POTUS (not amusing trivia like the office of the President of Ichkeria was instituted by a hardcore Communist colonel and Cold War hero who staged a coup d'état in his native land and now a separatist propaganda website tells us the President is this guy nobody has ever heard of) and add something like "unrecognized" in the infobox header and remove the second infobox with the same info - then go for it. --apoivre 17:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Gavin. Even though Ichkeria may not have been recognized as a state in the international community, it was still allowed to have an autonomous political system within the Russian Federation for several years. The President of a substate entity can still legitimately have a succession box in wikipedia. Governors of U.S. states can have succession boxes, I don't see why the Chechen Republic's government (or government-in-exile as it stands now) couldn't have a succession box of its own. —thames 13:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Ichkeria is not a substate entity within the Russian Federation. Chechen Republic is. Ichkeria was only allowed to have an autonomous political system from 1996 to 1999. It is no longer. If someone sets up a website claiming that a certain Wikipedia user apoivre is the rightful King of Aragon - do I get a page in Wikipedia and an infobox? Like, you know, preceded by Philip V of Spain and whatnot? Or do I have to kill and kidnap and blow things up to merit the honor? --apoivre 17:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Ichkeria was permitted by the Russian government to have an autonomous government from 1996 to 1999, it is true. However, Ichkeria had been "autonomous" since 1991 - I would go so far as to say it was sovereign. Because, y'see, whether Russia "allowed" it to or not, Ichkeria was, in fact, autonomous. This is because it did, in fact, have the exclusive right to supreme authority over its people, territory, resources, et cetera.

It neither exercised this authority -- for most of the time only the teips did, each within its traditional territory, -- nor did it have the right (it's your wording, not mine) to it, exclusive or otherwise.--apoivre 12:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Russia had no actual power within the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria's borders. Even if it claimed to have such power, this was not truly the case. If, in some random and extreme example, South Africa claimed to have the exclusive right to all of Canada, this would not be the case. It does not control Canada until it has toppled the government and exercised its force on that nation. From 1991 to 1999, Russia did not exercise any force on Chechnya. It had no right to that nation.

From 1996 to 1999, yes. From 1991? - are you kidding or what? --apoivre 12:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, since 1999, I will admit that Russia has since managed to take control of the Ichkerian territories, and that the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria is no longer a sovereign nation. However, like the Palestinian Authority, it remains as a political and military organization. The Beslan incident was believed to have been organized by Aslan Maskhadov through the Ichkerian forces. They have people - many Chechnyan people proclaiming continued loyalty to the Chechen Republic, just as some Palestinians might proclaim loyalty to the Palestinian Authority.

Like how many? What are your sources? (oh, and its Chechen, not Chechnyan) --apoivre 12:48, 27 July

2005 (UTC)

No, NOT Aslan Maskhadov. Shamil Basayev. Geez. --Kocoum 09:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

They have resources. They have a command structure. (Aslan Maskhadov died fighting as a general for his forces, and he had several other forces under his control.) It is, in effect, a government-in-exile. Governments-in-exile, like other governments, can have leaders. And! If you want to travel quickly through such leaders... you have sucession boxes. - Gavin 18:50 26 July 2005 (UTC)

May I be allowed to quote His Majesty King of Aragon Apoivre I? - "If you can start a page on "President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria" with as much useful content as that on the POTUS (not amusing trivia like the office of the President of Ichkeria was instituted by a hardcore Communist colonel and Cold War hero who staged a coup d'état in his native land and now a separatist propaganda website tells us the President is this guy nobody has ever heard of) and add something like "unrecognized" in the infobox header and remove the second infobox with the same info - then go for it. " If not, not, as we say in Aragon :) --apoivre 12:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

First of all, general not colonel (colonel was elected). Two, not a communist - it happened during the communist coup(against Gorbachev) and Dudayev's supporters actually stormed the local Soviet and killed the Communist Party leader in Grozny. (Before that, he supported the Estionian independence movement against Soviet Union - his base was in Estonia and he ordered the Estionian flags to replace the Soviet ones). He then changed the former Soviet building into his Presidential Palace. --Kocoum 09:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Apoivre, if you direct your attention to the Yasser Arafat and Władysław Raczkiewicz articles, down at the bottom you will see succession boxes. Neither of these people were actual leaders of states. But they were leaders of political organizations, and there was a distinct line of succession. The same applies to the so-called Presidents of Ichkeria--they are leaders of a political organization, and there is a distinct line of succession. I am putting the succession boxes back, without further delay. —thames 14:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Is this guy linked with bin laden --->No. At least he denies any links. Him and his predecessors are against bin laden.