Talk:Shawarma

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[edit] Shawarmas in Canada

Do we really need a city-by-city break down? I can't help but notice a lack of information on many major cities. Would it not be easier to say "Shawarmas are more readily available in larger, more multi-cultural Canadian cities. Google Maps reports 91 shawarma restaurants in Ottawa. Similar foods of Greek and Turkish origin are also widely available." Baribeau 21:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I find it very informative to have this information. The so '91' Shawarma places in Ottawa reflects this cities high Middle Eastern population.
I agree
I disagree. The fact that there is a high Middle Eastern population in Ottawa seems like it would more appropriately appear in an article on the demographics of Ottawa. I'm aware of one or two Shawarma places in Kitchener-Waterloo... should that fact be recorded here as well as it reflects (one would assume) KW's much lower Middle Eastern population? Is there a minimum number of Shawarma restaurants a city needs to have to have to qualify for inclusion on the list? I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but if every country on the list got the same treatment Canada does this page would be ridiculously long, and I honestly don't see "number of Shawarma restaurants in Ottawa" as a vital bit of information (particularly since someone could do a Google search to get more up-to-date information anyway). JPrice 17:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National Food

"Along with Falafel, Shawarma is considered the National Food of Israel." Is this really worth saying? I don't think this needs to be said.

Shwarma, gyro, and döner kebab are really the same food under different names, with regional/national variants. Shouldn't these three pages be unified?--Macrakis 04:17, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

whether unified or not, the article should be completely shrunk down a LOT. It's ridiculously detailed, and then the part with all the different national flags? not encylcopedic at all. It's a cheap food, and to earn an extra buck vendors cut corners like crazy, and it is completely suboptimal to cook meat on a toaster and serve it when you walk up rather than when it is ready.

Schawarma is not the same as a Döner Kebab in London. Döner Kebab’s are ubiquitous while the Schawarma is quite rare, mainly been found in the Edgware Road which is famous as an Arab district. The main difference, with Lamb as the meat, is that the Schawarma is made with layers of meat while the Döner is made of minced meat. 89.104.49.89 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Döner Kebab, Shawarma and Souvlaki (especially) are different. They are NOT the same. The meat is different, the bread is different. Why not merge this article with the sandwich article also if this is the logic to be applied? The different names also stir up national and ethnic pride - which name will you use for this new article? --Commking 7 December 2005

BTW, in Russia shaverma/shaurma is meat and some vegetables rolled into flat dough (lavash). It's quite popular street food, shaverma stands are plentiful. Grue 10:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I love chicken schawarma's. There is a restaurant in Dublin which claims to have the world's best schawarma. It's an unsubstantiated claim, but I'm inclined to agree.


[edit] Origin of term Shawarma

It comes from the turkish term 'çevirme' (read Chevirme which means Turning something) In turkish there are 2 terms: dönmek which means 'Turn itself' çevirmek (read 'Chevirmek' which means 'Turn something')

'mek' is the infinitif form: - if you write 'er' instead of the infinitif form you obtain the 'ing' form of the verb=> döner which means 'Turning itself' - if you delete the 'k' of the infinitf form, you obtain the noune related to the verb=> çevirme

In the past century, the skrew did not turn itself, so someone was turning it so Turks called it 'çevirme': but nowadays, it turns itself so Turks called it 'döner' whereas arabics continued using the old turkish term. Arabics do not not have 'V' sound, so they replace it by 'w' So 'Chevirme' became 'Chawarma' unsigned comment by User:82.231.203.175

[edit] Proposed merge

Disagree. --- bkeatsJanuary 18, 2008 (UTC)

The dish Shawarma is very different in fact from Doner Kebab. They look the same but their recipe is very different. Shawarma is made from slices of the meat stacked up, then roasted and cut. Doner by contrast is ground meat (burger meat or if you like Keema) which is put on a similar spit. Because in doner the meat has already been ground, the juices from the meat don't come out the same way they do in ready meat. When 'ready', unground meat is cooked on a spit it looks the same but tastes quite different. In this way doner is fairly similar to Gyro, but tastes completly different due to the way the meat is ground and readied for the spit. The sauces used are also very different. In the UK I understand that there is a major supplier of the ground beef for Doner on a spit for the many outlets in that country. The taste of doner is fairly standardised, but of shewarma is fluctuates a lot. Some of the worst shewarma I have tasted has been in Canada as well as at shops run by Indian/Pakistanis in Dubai. Some of the best shewarma has been in Lebanon, Saudi and shops run by Near East Arabs in London. The best Doner has been in Turkey followed by London. If we have an an article on "Meat cooked on a rotating stick" as suggested below, then we can introduce Sajji from the Baluch in Iran, Afghanistan, Central Asia and Pakistan and a variety of asado dishes found in Latin America. I had heard that the desert lizard of Saudi is roasted on a spit as well. On the other hand perhaps a better title would be "Middle Eastern meats cooked on a rotating stick". That would perhaps be more appropriate.Bkeats (talk) 13:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

There should be a main article on the Doner page, with short articles on the other two pages. In other words, all the common material should be one page instead of repeated three times. 82.36.228.136 12:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I support the proposed merge in principle, but I would suggest that we need to:

  • agree where the merged article should reside
  • once agreement has been reached on merging and on where to merge to, develop the text of the merged article beforehand, perhaps on a user subpage. Palmiro | Talk 10:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. --Macrakis 14:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. --Mgreenbe 17:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a single article, perhaps "Meat cooked on a rotating stick". The three articles are all so similar, particularly in the introductory paragraph. I think it's important to stress that all three of these foods come from the same part of the world, consist of approximately the same things, and are generally served in the same way. In a country-by-country breakdown, variations can be spelled out: the changes made to doner in the UK and germany, historical doner in Turkey (L-shaped what?), the changes made to shawarma throught the ME, and the horrible things the US does to food in general. But the presence of three different articles makes it seem like the three are different in more than name. Right now it's like having different articles for "soda", "pop", and "soft drink" because the words are used in different places with slight variation in meaning. --Mgreenbe 09:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Against. --Commking 7 December 2005
Could you please explain your rationale? Please note that merging the articles does not imply that the food items are identical world-wide. But then, even articles with the same name aren't identical world-wide... Describing the variation would be part of the merged article. --Macrakis 04:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Weak Against. +MATIA ☎ 16:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
comment: There are three articles, about three similar but different things (or should I say dishes). The articles are big enough to justify being splitted, and I'm afraid that the suggested merge would cause more trouble in the future. The refferences in the see also section, with a more detailed common intro in the three articles (and then each article would have details about the specific variation) seems a better idea to me. +MATIA ☎ 16:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Names and differences: There is no consistent distinction among these dishes by name. Some places in the US make "gyros" with sliced meat, some with ground meat. Same thing for "shwarma" and "doner". As far as I can tell, in the US, the name used has more to do with the national background of the seller than the nature of the dish.
Same concept: It really is the same concept, just as "sausage" should not have separate articles under "wurst", "saucisson", "salumi", etc. although specific kinds like, say, "mortadella", "bratwurst", and "blood sausage" (boudin noir) might have additional information.
Size: I don't see that size justifies splitting. None of the articles is very large.
Trouble: Chauvinist editors may cause "trouble" in the future, but Wikipedia policy explicitly disapproves of content forking and POV forking.
Name The most natural name seems to be "d�ner kebab", since it is originally a Turkish dish. It is also one of the names in Greek (?????? /doner/ is even listed in the Babiniotis dictionary as a synonym of ?????). Of course, all the other names should redirect to it. --Macrakis 18:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
We shouldn't compare the situation in the states, but the original recipies for "shwarma", "gyros" and "doner". For example, I know gyros is sliced pork meat, what about shwarma and doner? +MATIA ☎ 19:05, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
We should consider the situation world-wide, including of course the situation in Turkey, Greece, and the Middle East, but also in Germany, England, the U.S., etc. As far as I know, both ?????? (doner) and ????? (gyros) in Greece are made with pork, and of course in Muslim and Jewish contexts, they are never made with pork. But then, they can be made with chicken etc. as well. All these variations are worth mentioning. --Macrakis 20:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
See also: Coca-Cola#Types_of_Coke and Pepsi#Types_of_Pepsi. In my opinion coca cola and pepsi are 99% (if not 100%) the same, yet they even have sub-articles for each diet, light, vanilla, etc. +MATIA ☎ 19:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
There is actually a Cola article which talks about the common issues. The Coca-cola article is mostly about the business history of Coca-cola, not about the beverage. If at some point someone writes 5 pages of meaty (!) material about (say) the social and gastronomic history of gyros in Thessaloniki, that might deserve its own WP page, just as there is already a page on a Canadian fast-food chain, the King of Donair. That doesn't reduce the need for a single page about the core concept, though. --Macrakis 20:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm against the merging of the three. They are not the same, but very similiar dishes. This is robbing the Turkish, the Arabs, and the Greeks of their individuality. I completely disagree with the lumping of "shawarma", "gyro" and "d�ner kebab" into one category. posted by User:Obscure41 on December 11 15:58
Thank you for your input. In the future, please don't remove notices that indicate an ongoing discussion — it makes it significantly more difficult to assume good faith; it is also helpful if you sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end.
To the point: in what way would these cultures be robbed of their individuality? While it is true the article would have a single name of the three, the others would redirect to it. The differences of each dish would be described. Could you please explain what is lost? --Mgreenbe 14:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. I am strongly for this. Through my travels, I have found as much variation between Doners than between Doners, Gyros, Shwarmas, etc. For example, here in Bulgaria, they roll up fries with the meat and salad! I think you'll have to agree that the "standard deviation" of the definition for any one of these dishes is about the same as that of the whole range. Froese 13:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Weak agreed. After reading this talk section, I was going to strongly agree. I've eaten gyros/d�ners in Germany, Turkey, Greece, several other European countries with Turkish immigrants, and also at a little Turkish caf� here in Anchorage, and (as I was surprised to discover in my travels) they really are the same thing. Like Froese said, they're different even from restaurant to restaurant even within one country. The biggest difficulty would be finding a better title than "Meat cooked on a rotating stick" (especially since many gyros-makers here in the U.S. grill individually-separated pieces of lamb, rather than on the more typical vertical spit). However, after perusing the actual articles themselves (of which I had only read the first couple paragraphs each), my support weakened. There's sufficient difference between the articles, especially in worldwide usage of both the food and the terms (i.e. gyros in the U.S., "Donairs" in Nova Scotia) that separate articles may be warranted. If we can figure out a way to effectively combine them without getting everyone's trains of thought confused, I'll be for merging them.cluth 02:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. In Denmark Shawarma and Kebab are considered the same. I only find it confusing to have to look at three pages. Look at the hotdog page, it has descriptions of regional varieties. The same ought to be possible with Kebab/shwarma/gyros. Vivitar

:Dis-Agreed. So then, given the rationales on these pages, we should merge all food into one category because it's food. IE would you put cheeseburger on the sandwich page? Or put kebab on the hot-dog page? (Unsigned edit by 68.166.127.146) Anonymous votes don't count.

Those things that are common to or relevant to foods in general belong on the food page; the cheeseburger page does not need to repeat that cheeseburgers are eaten and digested, for example. How exactly to divide up the space of articles is not an exact science, of course. If you have substantive comments on why these three foods in particular shouldn't be merged, please write them below, preferably with a login so your vote can be counted. Thanks. --Macrakis 21:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Strong against. We're talking about three (or possibly four) different items: Shwarma, gyros, (tacos al pastor) and doner kebab. Similar items prepared in a similar manner, with some overlap in the names given them by vendors due to these similarities. However, as the articles demonstrate, there is enough difference between each of the dishes to warrant separate entries that reference one another. In addition, a title like "Meat cooked on a vertical rotisserie" is overly clumsy. (If a fitting title is found I'll change my vote to weak agree.)--Wasabe3543 09:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe you are mistaken about the history. It is not that the foods were developed independently and then the names came to overlap by accident. As far as I can tell, Doner kebab was the original version, developed somewhere in Turkey. It spread both west (to Greece) and east (to Lebanon). In Greece, in fact, it used to be called "doner" and the name "gyros" (a translation of 'doner') came later. The Arabic name is also apparently of Turkish origin (�evirme), meaning roughly the same thing ('turned' as opposed to 'turning'). I don't know anything about tacos al pastor. Over time, there have been many variants of sauces, serving styles, etc., just as some people eat hot dogs with relish and mustard, others with ketchup, and others with fried onions. Some hot dogs are made of pork, some of pork and beef, some of turkey, etc. Sometimes hot dogs are called frankfurters or wieners. Would you argue that there should be a "wiener" article about pork-based hotdog-type sausage with fried onions, a "frankfurter" article about beef-based hot dogs with mustard and relish, and a "hot dog" article about chicken-based hot dogs with ketchup??? These may even correspond to regional preferences.... --Macrakis 16:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't argue that way because it doesn't make sense. A frankfurter is a type of sausage that is a culinary specialty of Frankfurt am Main. A wiener, or more correctly wienerwurst, is a very similar sausage from vienna. A hot dog uses a type of sausage similar to a frankfurter or wienerwurst. Therefore, a hot dog is called a frankfurter or wiener as a form of synecdoche. Toppings have nothing to do with it. Gyro, Shwarma, doner, etc. indicate a sandwich with shaved meat with specific (often similar) toppings. And there's still the problem of what to call the article should all four be merged together. My preference is to keep them separate and note the similarities/influences. --Wasabe3543 03:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree entirely that "toppings have nothing to do with it" for hot dogs. In fact, that was exactly my point. The same thing holds for d�ner kebab, which is a name for the meat. D�ner can be served on a dinner plate, or in a sandwich, just as frankfurter and wiener sausages can. D�ner/gyros/shwarma by itself is not a sandwich, but a meat. By synecdoche, as you say, they have come to also mean the sandwiches made with it. As has been noted by other editors above, there is not at all a one-to-one relationship between the names and the garnishes. In fact, as far as I can tell, the name depends only on the ethnicity of the vendor or local tradition. Locally, there may be systematic differences, e.g. that d�ner is served with chopped salad and gyros is served with sliced tomatoes and tzatziki or whatever, but in some other city, it may be the other way around. --Macrakis 15:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Well what about merging spaghetti with ramen? Same stuff, just different toppings.
Strongly against If you do not know the difference between Shawarma, donair, taco el pasor, and gyro, you have no reason to be editing this article. eternalsleeper

Macrakis, you seem to be the one mistaken about the history. While the original turkish doner kebab may have come first and influenced shwarma and gyros (as well as "german" doner kebab itself), the modern version of the doner kebab was only developed in the early 1970s in Germany. The doner kebab article says as much. Gyros developed around the same time in the US, based on the Greek version of the doner kebab. Multiple sources (eg, the OED, the Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink) support the gyro as a US creation. So gyros and european-style doner were developed around the same time, both being influenced both by the classic Turkish dish as well as the practice dating from the 60s of putting doner kebab in a pita (leading to early gyros also being called doner kebab). While the inspiration may be essentially the same, modern gyros and doner kebabs are the creations of (Turkish/Greek) immigrant communities in the early 1970s who were trying to suit local (German/US) tastes. The convergence in names and toppings/prep styles for the most part seems to have come afterward.--Wasabe3543 11:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you would like the articles to cover only the "modern" d�ner (by which I think you mean the d�ner sandwich in particular). But this is an encyclopedia, and it should cover all the versions.

There is a Turkish dish called d�ner kebab which has become very popular around the world, in various variants and under different names. In sit-down restaurants in Turkey and abroad, it is served on a plate, typically on top of a piece of pita and sometimes sauced with a yoghurt-based sauce. In take-out and street-food establishments, it is served in a pita sandwich with vegetables and sauce (what exactly those vegetables and sauce are varies). In Greece, the dish took the name gyros, presumably as a matter of linguistic purism. In Arabic-speaking countries, it is called by a different Turkish name for the dish, �evirme, spelled shawarma. The dish is attested from quite far back:

  • 1770: A d�ner kebab spit figures in the inventory of a tavern in Bosnia (The Melting Pot: Balkan Food & Cookery, Maria Kaneva-Johnson)
  • 1938 "tchevir me kebab" s.v. kebab Larousse Gastronomique (1961 English translation of 1938 edition) "Place on an upright spit some thin slices of mutton, alternating with pieces of mutton fat. This spit turns itself in front of an upright grill. As the meat is cooked the pieces are slit lengthwise and taken off the spit one after the other. This is served with yoghourt, pilaf of rice, etc."
  • 1959 "d�ner kebab" -- in Concise Oxford Turkish Dictionary, 1959 (s.v. kebab), see also �evirme (shwarma).
  • 1967 "???????" [doneri] ?.?. ?????????, ??????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????????? (Etymological dictionary of Modern Greek) (2nd edition)
  • 1998 doner given as a synonym for gyros in ?????? ??? ?????? ???????????. "????? ?? ????" (gyros with pita) given as one way of serving it

The claim that the d�ner sandwich was invented in Kreuzberg in the 1970's seems to come from the German Wikipedia, but I have not seen good evidence of it elsewhere. Similarly, the claim that immigrant communities invented the sandwich form seems unlikely. I remember clearly having souvlaki sandwiches exactly like this (onions, tomatoes, tzatziki) in Greece in the 1960's, and it hardly seems surprising that d�ner would be served the same way.

As for the difference between d�ner, gyros, and shwarma, I agree that there are many variations. However, as others have confirmed in the discussion above, there is no systematic correspondence between the variant and the name. As far as I can tell, it is a matter of which immigrant group arrived in a given area first and established the name (called gyros in New York, but d�ner in Germany), or naming it in one's own language (Greeks call it gyros, Turks call it d�ner). I would certainly be interested in better evidence all around! --Macrakis 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I am aware that there is also ersatz d�ner meat which is cooked on a griddle rather than shaved off a rotating vertical spit, just as there are ersatz frankfurters made of chicken or tofu. That doesn't change the central definition.... --Macrakis 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The doner article should cover all versions, which it currently does. Turkish guest workers in Germany in the 70s are quite commonly given as the source of the German doner sandwich. From The Week in Germany (May 31, 1996): The D�ner, a relative of the Greek gyro, is a pocket of Turkish bread filled with spicy grilled meat, salad and a yogurt sauce. Turkish �guest workers� introduced Germany to the D�ner, and since the early 1970s it has progressed from an exotic ethnic specialty to a fast food staple.[1] This[2] article attributes the doner sandwich to Turkish immigrants, using as its source a case study by Ayse S. �aglar, "Mc Kebap: D�ner Kebap and the Social Positioning Struggle of German Turks," from Changing Food Habits: Case Studies from Africa, South America and Europe as well as Eberhard Seidel-Pielen's Aufgespie�t: Wie der D�ner �ber die Deutschen kam. The latter publication is listed as the reference work for the German doner article.--Wasabe3543 05:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the references. I somehow overlooked the ref in the de.wikipedia article. I agree entirely with you that the doner article should cover all versions, as it currently does. I reviewing the shwarma and gyros pages, my impression is that they are mostly duplicates of the doner kebab page, with some additional information about variants. So I would think that merging all three into doner kebab would be the right solution. I still don't understand why you think that is a bad idea. --Macrakis 16:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Shwarma is too disimilar to be merged. Shwarma mostly refers to marinated chicken, the other two traditionally to seasoned goat or beef. So not only is the meat different but how its prepared. I might agree that in most circumstances donair and gyros are similar enought to warrant discussions of a merger, I would think it more accrute to keep them seperate. Although Gyros and Donair meat are similar in make-up they are not the same. Futher, the topings are also traditionally different, gyros with tadziki, donair with garlic sauce. So in summary, all three are the same in that they are meat served in a pita originating from the eastern mediterranean. That's it. To me, they are about as similar as hotdogs and hamburgers. (oh and Shisk Taouk is different from Shwarma, Montrealers know that). (unsigned comment by User:DSixy 2006-01-03 21:11:46)

This is in fact yet further evidence in favour of the merge, and yet another case of how the supposed differences between what some people think of as shawarma/doner/gyros are not at all consistent. The term "shawarma" is in general use, and in this form originates, in the the Arab world, and there it refers to any sort of meat grilled in this way: most commonly lamb, beef, veal, turkey or chicken, but also in unusual cases sausage (I've seen this in Beirut) and fish (seen this in a Damascus restaurant, or rather, I saw a sign advertising it). In the English-speaking world, the only place I'm familiar with is Dublin, and here "shawarma" is used to refer to either meat or chicken interchangeably. In Dublin, the difference between "shawarma" and "doner" seems to be one of whether the shop is run by Arabs or not. Palmiro | Talk 21:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree. I did a little "research" on the web and it seems that most people use the terms interchangably. It seems that doner is the original form and the others were derived from it. The article should be called Doner Kebab and the other terms redirected to it. I've seen other articles done like that.Anthopos 04:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Theoretically agree because "there is no systematic correspondence between the variant and the name" but good luck on a single title. It's true that the doner kebab form predominates in UK/Ireland but it is unknown in much of the US where gyro reigns. LuiKhuntek 08:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I am against it because I think that the ethnical aspect has so far been overlooked. We seem to agree that these recipes are similar albeit not identical even within one country. So, why not leave each group its own "meat on the stick"? --Hjslaw 15:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Because it leaves us with three different articles about the same thing. Palmiro | Talk 16:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It boggles my mind that someone suggested that this article be merged with Gyros. They are completly different foods! Gyros is greasy and Americanized, Shawarma is dryer and very Middle Eastern. Let's merge hot dogs and bratrwurst, why don't we, they are both kind of similar!

I'm against merging these articles, because they are three different foods. Rhobite 00:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Against: I too feel that they are too different to merge. Although some restaurants dilute the names by using different names for the same thing or the same name for different things, they really are different foods. Just because a certain Mexican restaurant might use the same meat in both it tacos and enchiladas, doesn't make them the same food.

This is rather frustrating. Lots of people seem to oppose the proposed merge on the grounds that the articles are about different foodstuffs, but nobody seems able to explain what the supposed differences are. Palmiro | Talk 00:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I consider those votes essentially unjustified. No one has come up with a convincing argument. I think there are two possible courses: RfC and action. Anything to stop the inertia. --Mgreenbe 00:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
You think we should discount votes because you don't like the rationale? Come on. For your next act, maybe you should try merging Lo mein with Spaghetti. Rhobite 03:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Please be civil and assume good faith; I, like you, want the best for these articles. I, like you, acknowledge that these foods are national treasures. I would discount votes not because of my opinion, but because of insufficient evidence. The pro-merge argument is that there is no fundamental difference and that a combined article would present the information more clearly. Any vote against merging should provide one; as Palmiro noted above, no one has done so. --Mgreenbe 15:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Against. I can't comment on döner kebab (though from the article, it does appear quite similar to shawarma), but having eaten my share of shawarma and gyros, I'd say they are definitely different things. Shawarma uses a thin lebanese bread; gyros uses a thicker, softer pita. The texture of the meat is different -- shawarma meat is slightly crispy. The sauces and other fillings are different, too -- I've never encountered french fries or tahini in gyros. Nath 06:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

While this is certainly true where you have been, in Israel shawarma is served in thick, fluffy pita (usually). Here they serve it crispy and not. I've seen tahini in gyros (in the States). Can you cite a global distinguishing factor? --Mgreenbe 09:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
In both Syria and Lebanon, two types of bread are available for shawarma (and for falafel). One is called, in Syria anyway, khubz siyahi (tourist bread), and is essentially pita, though the individual breads are at least 20cm in diameter while a lot of pitas I have seen in other countries are much smaller. The other is called khubz 3arabi (Arab bread) in both countries, and is much thinner, composed of one layer rather than the two of pita/siyahi bread, and slightly bubbly and stretchy in texture. But whichever sort of bread you eat it on, or even if you just buy a kilo of the grilled meat and take it away and gobble it at home, it's still called shawarma. Palmiro | Talk 12:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


Strongly against I won't comment on gyros, because I have never visited Greece and therefore cannot be sure of what it is really like. The only thing I can say is that, in France, people call "sandwich grec" what I believe is döner kebab (shawarmas are harder to find and are not as famous, but are sold under the name of shawarma).

What is certain is that döner and shawarma ARE different. The bread is not the same (arabic flat bread for shawarmas, pita bread for döners), the sauces differ (hummos or tahine for shawarmas, spicy sauce or white sauce for döners). Most important, the meats don't have the same taste, surely because they are not prepared in the same way (I don't know the recipes, so I can't be more precise, sorry).

Of course, sometimes you might buy a sandwich looking and tasting like a döner under the name shawarma (and vice versa). This simply means that the recipe has been adapted to local tastes, or that the product has been sold under the wrong name, just to please the customer (yes...that's marketing). Still, having eaten döner in Turkey and shawarma in arabic countries, I can tell you that the two are different.

Therefore the absence of a "global distinguishing factor", as stressed by Mgreenbe, does not seem relevant: although the recipe might have been changed locally (to please tourists or local consumers), the dishes were (and still are) different originally. The names we can find in other countries are mostly the result of history: Germans will talk of döner because of the important turkish immigration there, French of "sandwich grec" for another reason and so on. As a result it was easier for newcomers to sell their national dish under an unaccurate name. The fact that people might mistake one for the other is precisely why there should be distinct articles: an encyclopaedia has a duty to help us do away with our mistakes. Sami E. K. 23:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

And how will we determine what the "authentic" döner and shawarma are? Is the gold standard of döner to be found at Orhan's stall in the Bursa market? Kemal's restaurant in Antalya? or maybe even Murat's stand in Berlin? Is the gold standard of shawarma in Beirut? Baghdad? Alexandria? or maybe even Los Angeles? --Macrakis 16:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I've created a new category Category:Middle Eastern grilled meats and placed a number of articles in that category. Hope it helps to consolidate them for readers' convenience. --Aquarius Rising 21:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

strongly against, mainly for political reasons. merging shawarma, döners, and gyros opens a can of worms regarding at least greek and turkish national pride that there is just no reason to open. while there are a lot of simmilarities between these foods, i think each is just distinctive enough to support seperate articles. while i am neither greek nor turkish nor lebanese nor etc., i think that the cools of each nation and/or the emmigrants from that nation reinventing the dish have something to be proud of, and they deserve their own articles. i personally feel that i'd rather my national food have an artilce in itself, rather than being a footnote in someone else's article. just my 2¢. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.182.163.125 (talk) 19:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To-the-point discussion

Against, because the differences between the three dishes are big enough to have three articles. --Nina 14:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you please explain what the general differences are? We haven't been able to find globally distinguishing characteristics over the course of more than a month. --Mgreenbe 15:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The dishes are similar, but they use different meats (chicken, pork an beef/ calf) and different spices. The vegetables and sauces are different as well. Just because the meat is made on a Rotisserie doesn't make them taste the same. They're prevalent in different countries with different cultures. --Nina 23:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite a general rule? The only I can think of is that gyros can be pork, but the others are generally not. This singular difference warrants a mention, but not necessarily different articles. --Mgreenbe 01:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Döner is beef, gyros is pork, shawarma is chicken. If you want to point out the similarities, extend the article about rotisserie. Up to now, I haven't even read a reasonable lemma to merge these three articles. --Nina 10:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Have you read this article? Shawarma can be lamb, beef, chicken, sausage, fish or even turkey. Palmiro | Talk 14:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem I have is that for every assignation like that, there seems to be another. In the US, gyros is beef or lamb — rarely pork (usually called souvlaki instead), never chicken. In France gyros is usually beef, sometimes lamb; I never saw pork (but I'm sure it's there somewhere). In Israel shawarma is often chicken, but some of the best of it is lamb. I'm not sure that I'd be able to readily tell the difference between French gyros and Israeli lamb shawarma. The pictures on doner kebab all could be shawarma here in Israel; the sliced UK portion could easily be gyros in the States. The etymology has already been discussed, and the dishes seem to have a common origin.
The merged articles would first describe the common traits: rotating meat on a stick, the knife used to cut it, and the frequent use of pocket bread. Then there would be a brief etymology section, followed by a country-by-country breakdown (a la street food) describing what each word means in each country. I think this is the only way to get a reasonably sized, informative article out of this topic. This kind of thorough detail would allow the unified article to easily reach featured status; as it stands, none of these three have much potential. --Mgreenbe 12:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The original ingredients should be described in each article, and the exceptions or variations that appear in different countries should be mentioned. The fact that there are so many variations can rather be interpreted as a reason for keeping three articles, because otherwise it would be too confusing. And there is still no suggestion for a name of the merged article... --Nina 13:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest the name Döner kebab, gyros, and shawarma; naturally, the three would all redirect to that. Unified treatment allows:
  1. a single history and etymology section,
  2. the reader to evaluate what makes each country's version different, rather than the misleading "similar foods" section,
  3. a much clearer presentation for countries with name ambiguities, such as Australia or Germany, and
  4. us to manage a single page, rather than three. --Mgreenbe 14:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly with this rationale, though I think the page could equally just be merged to Döner kebab as that appears to be the original name as well as the one most widely used in the country of origin. But if the longer one is better for dealing with patriotic sensibilities, so be it. Palmiro | Talk 14:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
And why not write the etymology and single history to the article rotisserie? Sorry, but if you want to merge these three dishes you have to merge the lahmacun and pizza-articles as well. --Nina 22:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
But that's readily differentiable from pizza. But here's an idea: given a name we can all agree on, why not use a pizza-style format? An overall description, and then a list of links to specific articles? I wouldn't be against using rotisserie, but I would certainly prefer something more specific. By-the-by, I've added a link to lahmacun at pizza under a heading "similar dishes". And pide really needs its own article...volunteers? --Mgreenbe 22:29, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, don't forget merging Tarte flambée with pizza as well ;o) --Nina 22:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested to see the history, but the analogy — while better than lo mein vs. spaghetti — seems pretty weak. There are definitive demarcations between the Alsacian tarte and pizza. (Sounds good...if only I could get a real oven, crème fraîche, and bacon!) But I will dutifully add it to pizza's listings. :) --Mgreenbe 23:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I managed to buy, not just ham, but Danish ham the other day. I felt like a real rebel! Palmiro | Talk 20:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just recognized the whole mess: Category:Pizza. So, merging hawaiian pizza, California-style pizza, Stuffed crust pizza, St. Louis-style pizza - just to name a few- would have my strong support. But shawarma/döner/gyros are far too different. --Nina 23:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

But the sorts of pizza you name are all clearly different sorts of pizza. Whereas doner kebab, shawarma and gyros are, as far as anyone can tell, the Turkish, Arabic and Greek names respectively for the same thing, which exists in various forms none of which appear to be particularly closely associated with any one name. Palmiro | Talk 17:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

And why can't you see them as different sorts of the same thing as well? With even completetly different names? Prevalent in different countries? --Nina 20:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

If anyone could show that the different names actually do correspond to different kinds of grilled meat, or even different ways of serving it, I would be convinced. But that doesn;t appear to be possible. I strongly suspect that if you plonked a Palestinian down in front of a doner kebab shop in Ankara or a gyros shop in Thessaloniki, pointed at the meat being grilled, and said "shu haad"? he or she would say "shawarma". And ditto for a Turk in Jerusalem or a Greek in Damascus. Palmiro | Talk 12:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
But then they would taste it and change they're minds. If you taste the three things, they are completely different. True, they look similar and are made similarly, but they are undoubtably very different. —Daniel (‽) 13:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the taste is quite different. Shoarma has a different set of spices than Gyros, as far as I've tasted it, over the world. And I've had plenty of Gyros-pita in Greece that wasn't made of ground meat. Actually the only of the three under discussion here that I've seen with ground meat is Doner. In the Netherlands Shoarma is usually served with pita, Gyros is usually part of a larger dish, and Doner is usually served more like a burrito, with a much larger and flatter bread that is wrapped around. Drwilco 01:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I Say This

  Gyro meat is made with lamb. Donair's are made with Beef. Gyro sauce is made with yogurt.

Donair sauce is made with evaporated milk. Not to mention the spices, toppings, bread and so on

are NOT the same.

[edit] Image

Image:Shawarma.jpg was deleted as unsourced. Anyone have a picture handy? --Mgreenbe 11:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Increasing diversity - current developments

Fish shawarma is now available in quite a few places in Damascus, and one or two have now started offering sujuq (sausage) shawarma as well. Meanwhile, apparently as a result of bird flu, chicken shawarma is far less popular than before, and many places that used only have chicken (in Syria, most places that only had one kind of shawarma had chicken) are now offering lamb instead or both. One largeish restaurant that used have lamb and chicken now also has fish and sausage. Fish shawarma is quite nice, actually. Haven't tried the sausage yet. Palmiro | Talk 14:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Update: sausage shawarma is really tasty. Palmiro | Talk 13:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
My envy is boundless. What does sausage consist of under halal? Under kashrut, it tends to be beef with synthetic skin; proper kishkas are less popular. --Mgreenbe 14:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Spicy beef, normally. It's seen as an Armenian speciality here, but although the Armenians are Christians they've enough of an eye to the main chance to ensure the general marketability of their sausages. Not sure about the skin. Palmiro | Talk 14:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just looked at the Kishka article. It has possibly the most bizarre, even surreal, table of contents of any Wikipedia article. Incidentally, an entirely unrelated kishke is a sort of meze dish here consisting of, if I remember right, labne, labne-soaked ka'k, walnuts and sometimes mint or other herbs, and is most delicious. Palmiro | Talk 14:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is a Schwarma the same as this?

I was looking at the Schwarma article and it looks like it's about the same thing as a Shawarma, just an alternate spelling. Is that true, or are there any real differences? If not, then it might be useful to just merge that article into this one and put a redirect in place of Schwarma. --Elkman - (talk) 14:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they should be merged. Palmiro | Talk 11:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that :) --Nina 19:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Hurray! ;) Palmiro | Talk 22:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I made a redirect page. Is Schwarma just a typo missing an A or is it an alternative spelling? --Nina 07:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It's an alternative transliteration into English. So is shwarma. There are lots of Arabic words that appear in quite a few different shapes in English, as there are different translation systems and then sometimes people try to transliterate the literary Arabic form and sometimes they try to transliterate the pronunciation of some particular colloquial dialect. This is always a problem. Palmiro | Talk 14:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Strongly disagree

After I tasted a many of different Schawarma Gyros... and all the other similare looking - but very different tasting - I strongly disagree on merging the articles together. In addition to all the reasons given above, the taste is very different between the Shawarma as you find it in Lebanon (or Lebanese restaurants) (and other middle eastern countries (Syria, Palestine, Jordan..) and what you find in Greece, Turkie and North Africa.

[edit] shawarma around the globe

Shouldn't we be listing the ocuntries where it's most prominent (Turkey , egypt , israel etc) and countries where there are only a few resturants in the end of the list ?

I agree, but shawarma is most prominent in Turkey, Lebanon and Syria.--Beyrouthhh (talk) 11:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A misplaced comment about "Shawarma King" in Kalamazoo, MI

This edit is a little step towards factual accuracy but in its current form it belongs here and not in the article. The anonymous submitter who has mentioned Shawarma King is most likely unreachable now. --saimhe 11:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Shawarma King is a restaurant in Ottawa. Perhaps this was made to reference this. --dowboy98 3:11pm, 09 June 2007 (EST)

[edit] Human Shawarma?

I'm a big shawarma aficionado (hence my username.) I don't know about any of you, but I've heard of a small town in the mountains of Anatolia where they take the elderly, too old to work, and make shawarma out of them; it's an age-old tradition. This is not a joke... has anyone else ever heard of this? Maybe it should be included in the article. St. Christopher Spins the Meat 02:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Fellow editors, please ignore this trolling. --Macrakis 13:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Listing of particular well-known Shawarma Places

Who is in favor of removing the specific names of Shawarma restaurants on this article. I think it should be mentioned.

eternalsleeper
In this edit, I recently removed references to a number of shawarma restaurants in various places. Clearly, WP will never be a complete directory of shawarma restaurants, and indeed Wikipedia policy says explicitly that Wikipedia is not a directory. It is possible that some of the listed shawarma restaurants are notable in some way, but there is not even a claim of notability consistent with Wikipedia policy. That Ahmed's is a favorite shawarma restaurant at State U. in Anytown, USA is simply not encyclopedic information, at least in the shawarma article. Should we also have a list of all French restaurants in Anytown in the French cuisine article, a list of all pizza restaurants in Anytown in the pizza article, etc.? Common sense and Wikipedia policy says that this information doesn't belong here. --Macrakis 00:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes that make sense not mentining specific restaurants by name. It could be the restaurant operators who are posting their own information. But having lived in Ottawa, Montreal and spent a great deal of time in Toronto, the statements are accurate. However, i do not think you should remove something such as "Amirs is the largest Shawarma chain in Montreal." As one shouldn't remove "Mcdonalds is the largest hamburger chain in the world." eternalsleeper
When Amir's becomes the largest shawarma chain in the world, or even in Canada, it might be notable enough to rate a special mention in the shawarma article. However, until then, I don't see the rationale. Should the pizza article mention the largest pizza chain in each metropolitan area of the world? --Macrakis 17:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I think they should be removed. It's advertising and clutters up the page. 171.66.237.20 23:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do we even need a section describing all the places in the world where you can get shawarma? It isn't exactly a rare delicacy.. can we just assume that you can get it in most places? Rhobite 01:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think this all started when people noticed that the shawarma as described in the article was different from the shawarma with which they were familiar. There are certainly differences, some regional, some ethnic, some individual, and people seem to be very attached to them. I certainly agree we should get rid of the micro-description of shawarma variants and just summarize them.

There are also differences between shawarma, doner kebab, and gyros, but they are clearly the same food with variations. Nonetheless, from each ethnic community, there are loud defenders of the status quo of one article per name. Isn't it amusing how this article often says things like "in MyCity, shawarma is called donair/kebab/gyro".... Sigh. --Macrakis 16:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The "Around the world" section is lame and should be deleted. It's totally unencyclopedic and there's a lot of vague advertising. 24.6.86.209 01:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

There are almost no sources for the "Around the world" section so most of the info is unverifiable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The shawarma shop in the "University District in Seattle" must be Alladin's Gyro-cery, which has been a local institution for at least 22 years. Note that even though it's an Arabic shop the sandwich is still called a gyros. However, I wouldn't call it notable for Wikipedia. There are now several shawarma/gyros/kebab restaurants in both the University District and Capitol Hill. In fact, the number increased significantly over the past year. Is that happening elsewhere in the US too? --Sluggoster 08:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Greek Gyros:

I was looking for the defition of shawarma, and I came up with a comparison with the Greek Gyros which as is it described it is made with ground meat. I just came from Greece, and NEVER was I served a REAL gyros with ground meat. It contains meat fillets in Greece too.

Thanks Eleni —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.171.219 (talk) 16:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shoarma in the Netherlands

The remark about snackbars serving shoarma is incorrect. I was born & raised in the Netherlands and still live there, and have yet to come across a snackbar that sells shoarma. There are tons of special shoarma restaurants that quite resemble a snackbar (there isn't any other kind of shoarma restaurant that I'm aware of), maybe that's the source of the confusion.

It might very well be that there are snackbars that serve shoarma, but if they exist they would probably be considered uncommon enough that it should not be mentioned here. Drwilco 00:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] If this merge isn't going to happen...=

Then remove the comment in the intro where it says in the intro that shawarma and donair are the same thing! Instead the article should clearly state that shawarma is part of a family of middle-eastern grilled meats, and state the differences. Kevlar67 (talk) 19:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)