Talk:Shalosh regalim

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[edit] Name

I can appreciate putting this article at an English name, but should it not be "Three pilgrimage festivals"? The chaghim in question aren't about pilgrims, but about pilgrimages, and that is how they are most frequently referred to in English... Cheers, Tomer^talk 23:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I moved it. Tomer^talk 23:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Err Tomer: I Just came across this, and I must say that I have never in my fairly long life (bli ayin hara) ever heard of the "pilgrimage" festivals., and yes, it is correct English to say that these were the festivals of the pilgrims, or pilgrims' festivals, as well. And it is considered like talking about a significant gathering in the singular, as in "The Jew" meaning the Jewish nation or "Israelite" referring to all the Tribes and the Children of Israel. I await your response. Oh, what about Shalosh Regalim that would be just fine with me, it's the correct Hebrew and there should be no problem with it being the main name here either. See ya. IZAK 00:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey IZAK. As I said above, that is what, other than "pilgrimage feasts", the festivals are called in English. I only went with that instead of Shalosh Regalim because there exists an English name for them, namely, the three Pilgrimage festivals. (JE article on Pilgrimage, for reference.) Although googling these names indicates that it's not something I made up, comparing google counts in this case is rather uninformative, since so much of what can be found on the Internet written regarding these chaghim as shlosheth haregalim even in English, is a by-product of the prolific material on the internet written by Jews (and Evangelicals, who have a propensity for using Hebrew on occasion). While I'm normally in favor of using Hebrew, I have argued strongly (most memorably regarding Wojsko Polskie) in the past, that English should be used for article names, when such names exist...so for me to argue here in favor of either "shalosh regalim" or "shlosheth haregalim" would be painfully hypocritical. This stance obviously does not extend to naming articles based on translations, when there is no preëxistent English name...so, e.g., I would argue vehemently against any effort to move Hatiqwa to The Hope. Cheers, Tomer^talk 04:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I'm not sure whether you checked the history, but, prior to my having moved it, the article was called Three pilgrim festivals. Also, while the people who participated were certainly "pilgrims", the festivals are set apart because of their pilgrimage aspect. For other yamim tovim, there is no inherent requirement of pilgrimage. The laws regarding other yamim tovim, even those wherein the Temple ritual comprised an overwhelmingly central rôle, such as Y"K, were not accompanied by a requirement to make the journey to Yerushalayim. Instead these 3, which are often closely tied to harvest celebrations, are the only times during the year when the mitzva is to go up to the Temple. [At first blush, because of its close association with agriculture, 15 Shvat seems to be an exception, but 15 Shvat is a taxation/tithing-related day, not a harvest celebration.] OK, I've pontificated enough, and fear I'm dangerously close to "way off topic"... Cheers, Tomer^talk 04:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right, all I was saying was that the way I was taught it and always used it was as "The Three Pilgrim Festivals" (and I never saw the word "Pilgrimage" used.) And of course I know full well that they were making a "pilgrimage" but the holidays were about the "piligrims" and not about the "pilgrimage" (focus on who the people were vs. focus on what they did) and I miss that name, it's like suddenly finding that an old friend of yours has suddenly had an un-announced name-change operation. Yoish, what did you do...? IZAK 04:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, not to delve too deeply into the semantics of that course of reasoning, but the logical extension thereof is to start advocating that all Jewish holidays should instead be called "Jew holidays"... :-p Tomer^talk 05:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

No Tomer, what are you saying? Firstly you are ignoring common usage. Secondly, there are never exact comparisons, analogies or proofs when trying to translate and adapt words from Hebrew to English (or to any other language). Finally, let's get some others to give their input, ok? IZAK 16:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I support "pilgrimage" as a second choice. My first choice is definitely Shalosh regalim. Cf. Hajj lehavdil - crz crztalk 17:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I also go for Shalosh regalim. Just like we don't call Pesach, Sukkot, Yom Kippur etc by their English names. And, as crz points out, Hajj is also not written with an English name. So, who is going to change it to Shalosh regalim? Seems like we have a clear majority and clear precedent. --Chussid 17:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say Shalosh regalim, and if English were required then I'd say Three pilgrimage festivals. "Three pilgrim festivals" is not only grammatically incorrect, it also could be read to mean festivals celebrated by three pilgrims. Not only would I agree that Hajj is a model of a transliterated title, but Sukkot translates as "Feast of Booths", "Feast of Tabernacles" or just plain Tabernacles, and Shavuot has a perfectly valid English translation as Pentecost, and we don't seem to use any of those translations. Alansohn 18:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

So we have 4 who want it to be Shalosh regalim and 1 who might also agree to that. Someone care to find an administrator to move it? Crz can do it? --Chussid 18:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Only three pilgrims? Kind of a small festival there. Is it notable enough to be in Wikipedia? Most people I know can probably hold a festival in the back of their apartment and get thee pilgrims to come. Can they get an article too? "Last Saturday night my brother had a three-pilgrim poker party and..." Seems like you ought to need more than a three-pilgrim festival to deserve an article. Have a Tzom Kal for those who are observing the fast. Best, --Shirahadasha 19:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Seriously, agree it should be Three pilgramage festivals Unlike many Hebrew words, these have some currency in English (no doubt because the role pilgrimage has in Christianity). IZAK, Perhaps your Cheder teacher didn't speak perfect English. "Three pilgim festival", to a native English speaker, means festivals with three pilgrims. "Pilgramage" is needed to make a sensible English phrase.

The three pilgrim/pilgrimage festivals just doesn't seem right. Yes they are three holidays with pilgrimages, but it doesn't seem right for the title to be a description of the event rather than its name. Shalosh Regalim seems the least worst option IMO. Better would be something like, the three festivals but that's simply vague and not used anyways. Put me down for a neutral opinion, I wish more people would bring their opinions and ideas but it's quiet time now. --Shuki 19:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I done moved it. - crz crztalk 19:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

You moved it, but you didn't clean up the mess you made in the process. Now go through and edit the article to use your preferred name, go through English wikipedia and remove double redirects [and preferrably, all instances of single redirects as well], and go to the foreign language wikipedias and make their interwiki links point to the right place. I'd do it for you, but I think it's about time you learned that cleanly moving an article is not a simple matter of clicking on [move]. Tomer^talk 00:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I will do some of that too. If not today, then tomorrow. --Chussid 01:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Took me less time than it probably took you to write the above. --Chussid 01:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Doubtful, as I type pretty quickly. That said, if you take a split second to review Special:Whatlinkshere/Shalosh regalim, you'll quickly notice that the job is far from complete, as indicated by the fact that almost every single link to the article is via redirect. Just plain shoddy. Tomer^talk 02:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Single redirects are ok. If it annoys you, go ahead. --Chussid 02:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I need another hole in my head? Tomer^talk 01:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)