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Contents 1 Separate pages for video games? 2 Gibson 3 Boston link 4 Magic? 5 4th edition 6 Books Listing 7 Re: GURPS comparison 8 Earthdawn? 9 Riggers vs Deckers 10 Theoretical Trolls 11 Where the frag are archetype description? 12 Non Shadowrunner Player Characters 13 Merge with Dzoo-noo-qua 14 Seretech 15 Cyberpunk RPGs 16 Editions 17 Fourth Edition picture 18 Nigel D. Findley entry request 19 Seventh World 20 Shadowrun Duels 21 Paul Hume and Tom Dowd 22 Shadowrun-Online 23 Ares 24 S-Run link 25 Quote? 26 List of Shadowrun writers and illustrators 27 Wording Quibbles 27.1 "Sales were positive" 28 foreign languages 28.1 French SR 28.2 German SR 28.3 Figurines - Ral Partha & Grenadier

[edit] Separate pages for video games?

Does anybody think the Super Nintendo and Genesis versions of Shadowrun deserve their own pages? Both are hailed as great games (although usually by different groups of people as they are nearly opposite gameplay-wise), and have small cult followings, but neither was a real hit. --Furrykef 22:32, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Maybe they do, but that's not the point. The question isn't whether those pages should exist or not, but whether people are up to add content or not. We may agree on the creation of those pages, but someone has to start it. I haven't played any of those games, so there isn't much I can do myself. – Mackeriv 01:47, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If you want to make the pages, I think it should be done, since the NES game, for instance, is quite different than the RPG. —Philosupial 07:38, 24 June 2004

[edit] Gibson

Gibson has had a big influence on the game and the genre. It's been so long since I've read Neuromancer I can't remember specificly what is used in the game aside from the idea of the Matrix. Ideas? Thoughts? psyco_path_industries 08:21, 6 Aug 2004 (EST)

The first two off the top of my head: the nuyen currency and the street samurai. NewYen in Neuromancer was the illegal script used in most unrecorded transactions and heavily used amongst the underworld, while the phoentically-similar nuyen is the global currency in SR. Molly Millions is the quintessential street samurai, in fact, is even called that at one point in the Gibson book. Her look was originally appropriated into the street samurai archetype in the first SR editions, i.e. surgically-implanted mirrorshades, retractable claws, boosted reflexes.--YoungFreud 05:42, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thinking in terms of what Gibson specificly created that have shown up in SR i'd offer SR's AI "winternight" (vs wintermute), and monofiliment weapons. Question how do we go about turning that these alussions into the citations requested?

Though it doesn't pertain to the pen and paper game, but for what it's worth, the Genesis game often asks you to pick up clients with names/pseudonyms like "Alan Turing"; one of these names is "Nero Manser". The SNES version's main character is named Jake Armitage. - Furrykef 03:27, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Erm, isn't Winternight from SR a terorist organisation - not an AI ??

As for ideas from Gibson incorporated into SR, I'd go with global computer networks, character Roles, Street Samurai, street level high technology.

193.243.227.1 (talk) 13:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boston link

The Boston link could do with updating to point to the appropriate Boston article, but I'm not sure which it is. --John 23:26, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? WikidSmaht 07:45, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Magic?

Could someone who plays add a bit about magic? How it came around, how it blends with technology, etc.? A friend said I should study Shadowrun for a story i'm writing, but information on the backstory concerning magic is scarce. —WikidSmaht 18:18, 30 July 2005

Magic in Shadowrun just is. There really is no explanation on it's origins or how it came to be, but there are patterns. Historically, the global level of mana moves in 5000 year cycles (with the possibility of occasional spikes, like say the Dark Ages) with it very low in off cycles, and then in 2011 when the cycle changed and the mana levels shot straight up. Monsters showed up, people gave birth to elves and dwarfs, and occultists and mystics found that their rituals and spells showed very visible effects. A few years later, more creatures appeared and some people started turning into orks and trolls.

As for magic and technology, they really don't get along too well. A big thing in SR is a character's Essence rating, which shows how much of a character is natural. The idea is that the more Essence a character has, the stronger their spirit is connected to the world, and the more control over magic a mystically awakened character has. As someone replaces parts of their body with cyberware (replacing is the key word here), the more unnatural their body becomes and their Essence rating drops. A character must have a positive Essence rating to remain alive, or else there's not enough of the natural body for the spirit to attach to.

It is notable to mention that there is a procedure called cybermancy, where one's spirit is essentially "tricked" into thinking that there is enough of the body to stick around when in fact most of it has been replaced by cyberware. However, it is a very complex and expensive procedure that requires constant treatment and monitoring, and it creates a devastating effect upon one's emotional state and presence to the point where such subjects are fittingly labeled as "cyberzombies." In game terms, it allows characters to have so much cyberware that their Essence score goes into negative numbers. Of course, with all the logistics involved, it's really reserved for monster NPCs designed to wipe out high-level parties.

The big thing to remember that magic in Shadowrun has a major attachment to life and living things. Emotional and environmental states also play a big part as well, with strong emotions and environmental conditions leaving impacts upon the Astral Plane. Places that see much joy and are naturally clean can leave an area astrally bright and warm, such as churches, concert halls, parks, and natural preserves. However, places that see or have seen much pain and suffering or have become heavily polluted can become mystically toxic, even for centuries for come, such as waste dumps, prisons, battlefields, and concentration camps being among the worst.

Naturally, the best thing to do is read the main rulebook and the biggest magic sourcebook (being Magic in the Shadows for third edition). You might want to wait until the end of the month when fourth edition comes out, however. --Paul Soth 07:07, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

blink Thanks! That was awesome! Some of that should definitely go in the article. Having it clear to those not familiar with the subject is a good thing. WikidSmaht 07:45, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Just to make this even more complicated now, I have noticed that the magic section of the entry refers to "Hermetic", "Shamanic" and "Somatic". With 4th edition and the new magic book imminent SR is moving away from all magic being categorised into one of these three "traditions". The players handbook merely gave details for these three as they were the popular ones of the time. If you have even a look at the previews of the new Street Magic book http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=136 it's clear that we are moving to a state where there are a stack load more traditions, each "equals" in significance to the old three... This would likely change the format of the current Magic section eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.157.122 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 3 August 2006

You may want to look at the SR3 core rule book. Just in the beggining it explains alot about the magic of shadowrun--Lostfang 16:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Should information be included about Aspected magic users? Grendelthorns 13:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 4th edition

I notice 4th edition's made some radical changes to the rules (edited dicepools, changes in profiles, no more rule of six, simplified combat etc). Would it maybe be a good idea to add a dedicated section about it? —Aratos 18:39, 18 September 2005

I think a revision overview of what changed in each edition would be useful. DamienG 12:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems as though some comment about the number of design oversights in SR4 is warranted as part of the "what's changed" section. It's unusual that a book that says "Fourth Edition" has first-edition rules in it and, consequently, the number of oversights that are typical with first editions. However, some people may think this is irrelevant, or may not agree that there's a large error rate.

I also wonder whether the scale of changes in SR4 isn't so large as to warrant having two separate pages, one for SR4 and one for SR1-3 (plus one for an overview of Shadowrun in general). As it stands, the page is an odd mixture of the two systems. For example, the Star Wars d6 and Star Wars d20 games have their own pages (with a common "Star Wars role-playing game" summary page), and I'm not convinced that SR4 is more related to SR3 mechanistically than SWd20 is to SWd6. There doesn't seem to be all that much that can be said about the rules of one that doesn't have to be corrected when talking about the other.

Ichoran 13:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

It's definately a worthwhile idea, but I'm not personally familiar enough with anything but 4th Edition to make appropriate comparisons. —159.37.7.48 11:25, 12 May 2006

[edit] Books Listing

I'm worried by the recent idea to start listing all the books for the game. Do you really think Wikipedia is the place to be listing this information when we can just link to [1] Ben W Bell 13:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a free, comprehensive encylopedia. By its very nature all the information exists some place or another - Wikipedia is neither a source for original thought nor a repository of links. Whilst at the moment they are just lists of titles there is no reason why they won't be further expanded upon and covered in-depth. ISee Resident Evil and its history for an example. If the list gets too long we'll throw it out into a separate article. DamienG 14:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't help thinking that by not putting the books into any particular category of listing, it's confusing matters a touch. I mean, there are books there from all the editions, a lot of which are compatible up until 3rd edition and others which aren't. Maybe I'm just looking into it too far. I mean, pretty much all of them'll probably be replaced now anyway. Aratos 18:36 28 September 2005 (BST)

No I think I didn't make my thoughts clear on this, completely my mistake. The problem I feel with the list getting fuller is it will start to take over the entire article. Lets see how it goes, though it should be easy to finish the list, but I think it should be hived off to a separate article otherwise the page is just a massive list with some text at the top. Ben W Bell 18:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Here you are, have fun :) —mattness 14:48, 27 October 2005

• ROC Novels*

5078 Never Deal With A Dragon (Secrets of Power Trilogy #1) 5087 Choose Your Enemies Carefully (Secrets of Power Trilogy #2). 5145 Find Your Own Truth - (Secrets of Power Trilogy #3). 5189 Into the Shadows 5199 Streets of Blood 5210 2XS 5218 Changeling 5220 Never Trust An Elf 5302 Shadowplay 5310 Night's Pawn 5313 Striper Assassin 5365 Fade to Black 5367 Lone Wolf 5374 Preying for Keeps 5377 The Lucifer Deck 5427 Nosferatu 5445 Burning Bright 5448 Who Hunts the Hunter? 5495 House of the Sun 5496 Worlds Without End 5537 Just Compensation 5539 Black Madonna 5542 Dead Air 5593 Steel Rain 5628 Shadowboxer 5629 Stranger Souls 5630 Headhunters 5631 Clockwork Asylum 5674 Beyond the Pale (also 5710) 5709 Bloodsport 5710 Beyond the Pale (also 5674) 5711 Technobabel 5712 Wolf and Raven 5713 Psychotrope 5714 The Terminus Experiment 5741 Run Hard, Die Fast 5742 Crossroads 5749 The Forever Drug 5775 Ragnarock 5819 Tails You Lose 5839 The Burning Time

• FASA Sourcebooks*

7002 Shadowrun Gamemaster Screen 7003 Shadowrun Quick Start Rules 7100 Shadowrun (First Edition Miękka okładka) 7101 Shadowrun (First Edition Twarda okładka) 7102 SR1 GM Screen 7103 Sprawl Sites 7104 Street Samurai Catalog 7105 Paranormal Animals of North America 7106 The Grimoire 7107 Virtual Realities 7108 Rigger Black Book 7109 Shadowbeat 7110 Shadowtech 7112 Paranormal Animals of Europe 7113 Corporate Shadowfiles 7114 Fields of Fire 7115 Lone Star 7116 Prime Runners 7117 Bug City 7118 Corporate Security Handbook 7119 Cybertechnology 7120 Awakenings 7121 Threats 7122 Portfolio of a Dragon Dunkelzahns Secrets 7123 Underworld Sourcebook 7124 Cyberpirates 7125 Corporate Download 7201 Seattle Sourcebook 7202 Native American Nations Volume One 7203 London Sourcebook 7204 Germany Sourcebook 7205 Universal Brotherhood 7206 Neo-Anarchists Guide to North America 7207 Native American Nations Volume Two 7208 The Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life 7209 California Free State 7210 Tir Tairngire 7211 Tir na nOg 7212 Denver: The City of Shadows 7213 Aztlan 7214 Target: UCAS 7215 Target: Smugglers Havens 7216 New Seattle 7219 Target: Matrix 7301 DNA/DOA 7302 Mercurial 7303 Dreamchipper 7304 Queen Euphoria 7305 Bottled Demon 7306 Harlequin 7307 Dragon Hunt 7308 Total Eclipse 7309 Imago 7310 Elven Fire 7311 Ivy&Chrome 7312 One Stage Before 7313 Dark Angel 7314 A Killing Glare 7315 Celtic Double Cross 7316 Eye Witness 7317 Paradise Lost 7318 Divided Assets 7319 Double Exposure 7320 Harlequins Back 7322 Super Tuesday 7323 Shadows of the Underworld 7324 Predator and Prey 7325 Missions 7326 Mob War 7327 Blood in the Boardroom 7328 Renraku Arcology: Shutdown 7329 First Run 7330 Corporate Punishment 7331 Brainscan 7401 Sprawl Maps 7601 Into The Shadows 7701 High Tech and Low Life - The Art of Shadowrun 7900 Shadowrun Second Edition (hard cover) 7901 Shadowrun Second Edition (soft cover) 7902 SR2 GM Screen 7903 Grimoire Second Edition 7904 Virtual Realities 2.0 7905 Shadowrun Companion: Beyond the Shadows 7906 Rigger 2 7909 Matrix

• Fan Pro*

10650 Year of the Comet 10651 Target: Awakened Lands 10652 Threats 2 10653 Target: Wastelands 10654 Wake of the Comet 10655 Shadows of North America 10656 Shadowrun Companion 10657 New Seattle 10658 Magic in the Shadows 10659 Cannon Companion 10660 Shadowrun Third Edition 10662 Rigger 3 Revised 10663 Man and Machine 10664 State of the Art 2063 10665 Survival of the Fittest 10666 Dragons of the Sixth World 10667 Sprawl Survival Guide 10673 The Shadowrun Character Dossier 25002 Shadows of Europe 25003 Mr Johnsons Little Black Book 25004 State of the Art 2064 25006 Loose Alliance 25007 Shadows of Asia 25011 Shadows of Latin America 25014 System Failure 26000 Shadowrun Fourth Edition

[edit] Re: GURPS comparison

I intentionally removed the reference to the system being as flexible as GURPS because Shadowrun character creation ISN'T as flexible as GURPS. GURPS is designed to allow any kind of creature or character to be built under a certain number of points; Shadowrun limits player characters to encourage cohesiveness. As a comparison, GURPS devotes an entire book (in a pair of core books) to creating characters alone, while Shadowrun uses a few chapters mixed in with setting and game systems. Not to be detrimental--Shadowrun's system encourages cohesiveness and viability, wheras GURPS's encourages experimentation. I do apologize for removing the comment without due warning, though. Is it possible to change it now that I've explained why? Alderson Disc 22:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

But the system itself IS as flexable as GURPS, regardless of what they encoruage you to do...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.102.41 (talk • contribs) 15:08, 15 January 2006

The degree of flexiblity depends on which edition of Shadowrun one is talking about, and whether one is using the default or optional (SR Companion) methods of character creation. The Shadowrun system is skill-based rather than class-based, which increases flexibility, but I agree that character creation in GURPS is more flexible than character creation in any Shadowrun edition. Ichoran 05:21, 12 February 2006

Which is natural, since this is the Generic Universal Role-Playing System we're talking about - it's supposed to be more flexible than anything else out there. Empath 12:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earthdawn?

Is Earthdawn REALLY the past of the Sixth World? I thought that was retconned away, or just "flavourful" speculation? MasterGrazzt 23:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is. It may not have originally been designed that way, but it became that way. In Shadowrun there is the dangers of the Horrors coming through again, in fact there was a big plot arc about them trying to come through early which resulted in Dunklezahns death. There are a lot of characters which appear in both, mainly the great dragons but also a few elves. Ben W Bell 08:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

it in the book worlds without end and a little bit in black madonna too also nomads are horrors.Ansolin 05:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the phrasing of the links to Earthdawn section from 'was retroactively linked to' in favor of 'is linked to.' Earthdawn was designed from the start to be linked the Shadowrun, and there was nothing retroactive about it. Also, considering that Earthdawn and Shadowrun are still linked, the past tense seemed odd. -18:42, September 9. 2007

As noted above, Earthdawn was designed to be the 4th World to Shadowrun's 6th World. The reason they were always coy about confirming this is that Microsoft owns a piece of the Shadowrun IP (Intellectual Property), and if they ever officially linked them in public, then Microsoft could claim it is all one IP and therefore that Microsoft owns part of Earthdawn. —MJBurrage • TALK • 03:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

To my understanding Microsoft doesn't really "own" any of the Shadowrun property, it just has the sole ownership rights to producing electronic software based on the universe and several other FASA properties through its ownership of FASA Interactive. It doesn't have ownership of the IP itself or any of it. Ben W Bell talk 12:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that it is not a percentage thing (I.E. Microsoft does not own say 20% of Shadowrun), but rather that Microsoft owns all the computer/video game rights to Shadowrun through FASA Interactive. So Microsoft can do anything they want to or with Shadowrun in a computer game, but they have no say about non-computer games. If Earthdawn was offically part of the older Shadowrun IP then Microsoft could claim the same computer game rights for Earthdawn. —MJBurrage • TALK • 15:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

And mine is that perhaps Microsoft perhaps did not own such rights when Earthdawn came out (mid 90's). In any case, it was announced, Earthdawn fans rejoiced, but not Shadowrun fans. Focus on the angle was phased out due to bad reception, afaik. Arasaka 02:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Riggers vs Deckers

I have begun reading through the fourth edition book and I am having trouble understanding the difference between these two seperate classes. Can someone please explain the difference to me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.200.245.25 (talk • contribs) 2135, 3 January 2006

Um technically speaking in 4th edition there isn't really a difference, they have both been condensed into the Hacker character type. If you want some better answers to specific Shadowrun questions you're better off asking at Dumpshock Forums the Shadowrun forums. Ben W Bell 08:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

There's enough of a difference between Riggers and Hackers in SR4 to warrant keeping them as seperate archetypes (rather than mashing them together.) Both use their commlinks in order to manipulate things via the wireless Matrix, however, Riggers tend to focus on the remote control of vehicles and drones, while Hackers tend to focus on manipulating the Matrix, as well as the code and the hosts within it. Also, Riggers tend to focus on the Electronic Warfare skill rather than Hacking. While there is still plenty of overlap between the two, I don't think putting them into one catch-all category is justifiable. Abschalten 14:50 EST, 25 January 2006

Riggers tend to do the following. Riggers control vehicles by jacking into them or via remote control deck. Riggers control drones by remote control deck. Most of the time when multiple vehicles and drones are run by the same Rigger (Or many riggers on one team) they form a vast tactical network providing bonuses to the Rigger, other vehicles and drones, and team members equipped with tactical computers. A little known fact about Riggers is that Riggers tend to be the head of all security inside buildings or facilities and not Deckers. This is mostly because Riggers are used to receiving data from multiple sources at once and dealing with information sharing. Remote turrets, guard squads, traps, doors and elevators (Just to name a few) are the security Rigger's tools. Woe to the Shadowrunners that go up against a well prepared Rigger.

Now a Decker on the other hand, they have their hands full with the Matrix. They are arguably the masters of the Matrix. They can write code on the fly or have programs that can do almost anything. They can enter a system, locate data, view cameras, steal plans, decrypt and read data, open doors, and a thousand other things. If it is connected to the Matrix chances are a Decker can manipulate, destroy, or steal it. Deckers can "make" a back door in programming making it easier to enter a particularly secure area in the future. Deckers commonly act as information brokers; If you have the nuyen they can get you in the know, and quick. If the Decker doesn't know about what it is you seek, they can find out, after all every thing in the matrix is at their disposal. Building blue prints, dossiers on criminals or Shadowrunners, Lonestar employee records, and megacorp paydata are all obtainable to a good Decker.--Lostfang 16:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

4th Edition eliminated the term "Decker"; Deckers were so called because of their cyberdecks, and absorbing the 'deck's hacking capability into the standard commlink made the term obsolete. So now they're just "hackers". Technically. ;)

MurderMunkey 4:14, 9 September 2006

Remote Control Decks were also removed. The closest remaining is the Control Rig, a piece of cyberware that just gives you a bonus on controlling drones and vehicles. And possibly a riggable security setup, but the rules for those are almost entirely absent from the 4E core. [[unsigned|64.81.69.13|14:55, 27 September 2006}}

Actually, by that logic MurderMunkey, "new" Deckers would be called Commers or Linkers [from Commlink]

I remem reading that the main reason Deckers and Riggers have been rolled into 1 is that they were the least popular Roles - taking too much time and effort to be used in a Session

193.243.227.1 (talk) 13:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Theoretical Trolls

This might be of lesser importance, but does anyone have a link explaining what a theoretical troll is? I tried to google, but found nothing but copies of this wikipedia page. The term doesn't seem to be used anywhere else on the net. I don't doubt the concept exists, played a campaign with a damn near unkillable troll in 1st edition, but does it have the wrong name here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.166.164 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 8 January 2006

A Theoretical Troll refers to the unfortunate tendency for some players to "min-max", which means to build a character that stays within the letter of the rules, but they exploit every little possible loop hole to make the most powerful characters possible. In First Edition Shadowrun, it seemed as though the publishers needed to reinforce just how brick-wall-like Trolls were, and they unintentionally built exploits into the system for them. However, I would like to point out that Theoretical Trolls exist only by the good graces of each individual GM. No game system can cover all the bases, and since no RPG will ever claim to have indisputable rules, the GM's must be "middle managers", and enforce their own rules, and their own world. I hope this helped.

~Tim 15:46, 18 January 2006

That said, it's worth noting that some systems are easier to exploit than others. One of the main trends in games as editions progress is that areas which are too easy to exploit are discovered and modified. It's of benefit to GMs and players alike for the GM not to have to be the one keeping the Theoretical Troll theoretical--it's work that the rules should do for you. So it's sensible to view Theoretical Trolls as a bad thing, all else being equal.

~Ichoran 05:14, 12 February 2006

A user called Max Overload removed the Flaws section (which included the Theoretical Troll) on 2007 January 22 at 13:57 with no explanation. Any objections to reverting the deletion? Urshanabi 00:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where the frag are archetype description?

Well? I can't find good definition of riggers, deckers etc. :( ~mattness 07:39, 18 January 2006

Riggers (in SR3) are people who specialize in vehicle operations. They are specialized due to specific cyberware that they have had installed in themselves. This cyberware consists mainly of a "Vehicle Control Rig", which is a high-essence unit that lets you "plug in" directly to the vehicle and you effectively become that vehicle, with all of your five senses being tied directly to the vehicle... you feel the road as if you were the car.

Deckers are what we call today "Hackers". They use a "Cyberterminal" (colloquially known as a "deck", hence their name). They are the ones you turn to when you want computer systems hacked into, basically. Fourth Edition makes it MUCH easier for any character to run in the "Matrix", which is what the Global Internet is called in Shadowrun (this name predates Matrix the movie). I hope this helps. Any other definitions you'd like? Oh, and by the way, both Deckers and Riggers have effectively been replaced by 4th Edition Hackers... as in they use the same hardware/software/units to accomplish thier tasks, minus a much smaller-essence-cost control rig. This is a good thing, because prior to 4th Edition, riggers were mostly ignored or NPCd due to the huge sacrifices players would have to deal with to play one.

P.S. You can find a lot more about the different stereotypical shadowrunner types on pg. 11 of Shadowrun, 3rd edition. I think that's what you were asking for in the first place.

~Tim 17:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tim, Thank you greatly (I knew, what deckers & riggers are. But I need good definition to explain this to folks in Poland). But why, for G... sake there is no fine definition on wiki?!

Wish you best ~mattness 17:31, 30 January 2006

http://members.tripod.com/~MegaPunx/rpg/shadowrun.html - under shadowrunrun types are pretty good IMHO definition of runner types. Does anybody will add something like that to wiki?

~mattness 19:42, 14 February 2006

See rigger-decker above that should help.--Lostfang 16:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non Shadowrunner Player Characters

Shadowrun's basic system does make it possible to create almost any kind of character you'd like in the Sixth World, but if you're looking to play characters that aren't Shadowrunners, you really have to work to get out from under the Shadowrun paradigm. As an example of what I mean, I tried to GM a game where the player characters were all members of a Sioux tribe that were under pressure from the Tribal council to leave thier land, and were effectively being forced out. It didn't work out as well as I would have liked simply because we all, players and I both, had a hard time getting out of the "we're all shadowrunners" mind-set. Let's face it, the character generation system definately leads into making that type of character. A good first step out of that setting would be to create an entirely new Skills set, one that expresses the type of characters you'd like in your game. It helped tremendously with my game. ~Tim 15:38, 18 January 2006

Shadowrun used to encourage charater types other than the now-prevalent criminals and mercenaries - Rockers, Detectives, etc [admittedly, inspired by CP 2020 and others]. Shadowrun used to be a world to explore and full of different peoples, but has degenerated to a game where anything other than crims'n'mercs are discouraged.193.243.227.1 09:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, all these characters have been shadowrunners as well who just happened to come from different backgrounds or have another job on the side. The really different types were usually introduce in the various Companion Sourcebooks (which is still to come for SR4). But who keeps you from creating a detective now? It is still completely possible within the rules, and to be honest I've always thought the idea of rockers a bit ridiculous (at least the more famous ones can't afford to run the shadows).

217.10.60.85 10:12, 22 August 2007

As mentioned by the original commenter, the rules don't really cater for anything beyond the crims'n'mercs type game. It used to have Tribal characters as viable archetypes [not least because AmerIndian culture was a very big part of SR].

To say that characters beyond mercs'n'crims are possible within the rules as long as you're willing and able to write such rules from scratch and provide information and background to bring them to anything like the level of the crims'n'mercs is 1) agreeing there's a problem, as those options, skills and background should be available 2) is like saying any word is the same as another - since using the alphabet, you can create any word you like.

Also, considering that cyberpunk is a genre and encompasses all sorts of characters and archetypes and plots [archetypes: mercenaries, soldiers, policemen, doctors, scientists, hackers, athletes, drivers, pilots, children, mutants, robots, jounalists, poets, superheroes, martial artists, tribals, pirates, corporates - plots: love, honour, vengence, revenge, theft, murder, investigation, gathering knowledge, unearthing secrets, stealth] SR is redefining cyberpunk to mean gun/spell/martial arts/metalware toting mercs'n'crims.

Every other cyberpunk rpg available offers more varied characters and archetypes than SR does.

Also, Bugglegum Crisis is generally seen as a template or archetypal cyberpunk manga and has someone mixing her music career with Boomer hunting and Hardsuit wearing, a junior police officer mixing her job with hacking and Hardsuit wearing, a corporate/shop owner with PR work and Hardsuit wearing - definitely more than just mercs'n'crims.

193.243.227.1 11:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you're mixing two different aspects here: Archetypes and rules.

I completely agree that the rules cater almost exclusively to shadowrunner characters. Additional rules for playing reporters, DocWagon employees, policemen, gangers, etc. have existed for both SR2 and SR3 (in the corresponding companion books) and will probably be introduced in the SR4 companion. So if you want to center your game around these concepts, then yes, you either need to wait for these rules or make them up (or adapt older versions).

If on the other side you want to play a shadowrunner with a different background, then the existing rules should be fine. Everyone can build shadowrunner characters, who are / were also working as rockers, detectives, etc. However, I strongly disagree if you say that just having Tribal character (or similar) archetypes in the main book is sufficient for playing alternative campaigns and that not having them there makes a difference concerning the game style that is encouraged/discouraged.

217.10.60.85 16:08, 29 August 2007

I've never had any trouble playing non-Shadowrunners with SR2 or SR3 rules. The rules were sufficiently flexible to handle any profession with some level of talent; it wasn't particularly good at handling children since the mechanics grew rather flaky when there were only a couple of dice being used. And although there aren't specific rules for filing legal briefs, extinguishing fires, and the like, a competent GM can handle all of that without undue difficulty. I am much less confident that SR4 will be as flexible, since the new WoD-style system still breaks just as badly for small numbers of dice, but no longer scales up well either. I wouldn't want to try to play an olympic athlete with SR4. Still, if you stay within the range where the rules work best, there's no reason you can't be doing crime scene investigations instead of sneaking through a corp. facility. Again, that's mostly up to the GM. 128.177.16.8 19:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Dzoo-noo-qua

I disagree with this proposed merger. If you merge that in then you need to have any future Shadowrun specific items in this article and it will get too large. The page is already getting large and some bits need splitting off. Maybe move it into a Races of Shadowrun article with the rest of the race information off the main page, but don't put it into the main article. Ben W Bell 08:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it could be merged into the HMHVV article (which covers Shadowrun vampirism, of which the Dzoo is a variant). I'm going to propose that link in the afor mentioned article. Donovan Ravenhull 15:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seretech

Below is the content from the Seretech article. I made it into a redirect here because it does not appear to need its own article. I suggest incorporating it into this article or one of its sub articles, if it has any. -- Kjkolb 13:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Seretech is a fictional medical company in the roleplaying game Shadowrun. It plays an important role in the overaching story of the game world, and helps to usher in the era of super powerful "Megacorps." In the future world the Megacorps partially replace government across the world, totally in some areas.

I, for one, do not think it is notable enough for it's own article. I'm an advid Shadowrun fan who has contributed to these pages, but I think this one is a bit much. Keep it as a footnote to the Shadowrun Timeline, which is how it is usually limited to in the source material. Donovan Ravenhull 15:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyberpunk RPGs

The following sentence is in the article:

Magic is the element that separates Shadowrun from other cyberpunk roleplaying games.

First of all, I didn't know that there were other cyberpunk roleplaying games. If so, then some of this text should link to a category of such games, or if there are very few, link to individual games. If you are including any of the universal RPGs in the cyberpunk category, then those will also support magic. This is just a request for a repair. Val42 17:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added a small bracketed section to list a few others. I've also created a new Cyberpunk role-playing games category. Ben W Bell talk 06:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editions

I realize how important the 4th Edition notes are, because it's so different from previous editions, so would it also be helpful to include changes in the other editions in their own sections? (2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, or an Edition History like the D&D article) I don't know all the changes between 2nd and 3rd editions. --70.142.40.34 17:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I could compare 2nd and 3rd editions, but aside from a change to the initiative system and some moderately important changes to the magic system, the games differ in really minor details. Even the initiative and magic changes are too specific to fit into the general discussion on the page. The change from 1st edition was a bit larger, but I don't have the first edition, so I can't help with that comparison. Anyway, if someone is an expert with all three, a few words about earlier changes would be great, but by far the largest changes (e.g. using totally different mechanics) happened between 3rd and 4th ed..

Ichoran 18:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fourth Edition picture

Wouldn't it be better to upload this larger cover image? [2] I don't know if it's acceptable under Wikipedia's copyright policy (or what low-resolution means), but there's already a large version of the 3rd edition cover. --70.143.33.216 02:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nigel D. Findley entry request

guys, I have a request. My English is too poor and wiki skills to lame, but Findley did very much for Shadowrun. If you don't know - he's dead (died in 2004 iirc). Could anybody be so kind and made an entry about him? TIA --mattness 20:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I added what I could but my wiki skills are fresh and lame. Can anyone help me out? throw you sig on it if you want :)--Lostfang 16:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seventh World

The Seventh World is due to begin on April 4, 7137 AD. Has anybody done any stories or scenarios set at or near this date? Would anybody have any interest in such scenarios? The Seventh World would end in about the year 12,263 AD. Is there any interest in scenarios set in that year? I'm not volunteering, I'm just wondering. Thanks.
:)--NotWillDecker 17:01 18 August 2006

dont think so wouldent it be magic free anyway (little boring).Ansolin 06:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shadowrun Duels

Does anyone have an info on this game by the makers of Heroclix? I understand it was similar to other clix games but used action figure sized figures rather than 30 mm ministure size. It would great to see a little on this added to the article. - Waza 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I made a start at Shadowrun Duels. —MJBurrage • TALK • 07:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Hume and Tom Dowd

It's funny, unless it's a joke. I just killed the links to Paul Hume and Tom Dowd in the infobox, because apparently, those links led to music personlities, not RPG designers. Now, I wonder if both homonyms having bios as noteworthy figures in the world of music, one as a journalist and scholar, the other as an engineer and producer is a coincidence, of if somebody made a bad joke or what. If anybody who knows enough about the Shadowrun authors to make a bio, or add the RPG related stuff to the article of the musicians if in fact it was really them, that would be appreciated. My own knowledge on the matter being quite insufficient. --Svartalf 10:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's just a coincidence. Paul Hume and Tom Dowd are in the family of people responsible for making Shadowrun what it is now. I assume that someone linked to those pages without looking. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about them to create decent bio pages. EvilCouch 06:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shadowrun-Online

The MMORPG project Shadowrun-Online is not listed in the article because of a few reasons:

• There is no publisher, which puts its release in question.
• It has not been approved by Wizkids or Microsoft, which puts the possibility of them getting sued into oblivion into the mix
• The development team that's making it "SmartFatGuys Studios" returns no hits on Google leading me to believe that they've never made a commercial game before.
• Further digging into it find the following statement "Disclaimer: The intent of this project is solely to create a game concept proposal for submission to Microsoft Game Studios" Which means that this is not even a game in the production process.

Please do not re-add the site in the links section until there is any light at the end of the tunnel. As much as I would love to see and play a Shadowrun MMO, Shadowrun-Online is not a game or even a game in development and doesn't merit being listed in the Wikipedia. EvilCouch 13:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Wikipedia should inform, right? If somebody wants to create Shadowrun-Online page in wikipedia - why not? But, IMHO, it should be informative (just info about this project: what they plan to do, what they achieve, etc.). The only problem is maintain NPOV (it can be easy resolve, by adding information, and controversy, which EvilCouch pointed [out]). –mattness 23:00, 5 January 2007

Well, the Shadowrun Online Project has been shut down by Microsoft because they were not authorized to develop the game. I've added a link to Shadowrun Awakened because this Open Source Project has Microsoft's Approval. CrisLander 01:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Link to Shadowrun: Awakened removed. Any notes as to why?

I removed the link as it is a non-notable production that may not see light of day and is not approved or endorsed by Microsoft as clearly stated on their main page. Ben W Bell talk 07:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

But it is approved by Microsoft. you can clearly see it in the website's FAQ. It says: "As of May 2007, we have a non-commercial agreement with Microsoft allowing us to make a free Shadowrun MMO." You can also see a transcript of the actual e-mail from FASA Interactive here. CrisLander 16:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yet the front page of the entire project very clearly states. "WizKids LLC and Microsoft Corp. do not endorse, and are not affiliated with this project in any official capacity whatsoever." In addition it doesn't seem notable as, like most of these projects approved or not, it stands a very low chance of anything actually coming of it. Ben W Bell talk 17:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Per their Sourceforge account, they're not out of the planning stages. While I'd like to see a Shadowrun MMO as much as the next guy, this project isn't even an infant or an embyro at the moment. It's a spermatoza or an unfertilized egg. EvilCouch 09:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

But the point is, regardless of how far into development, or how probable it is that the game is developed, the fact, right now, is that it is approved by Microsoft and it is in development. If the project is abandoned or shut down, then I'm all for removing the link, but until then, it should remain there. CrisLander 23:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The point is Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. A project like this that is unlikely to come to fruition (though it may indeed) isn't eligible. Also the link adds nothing encycloapedic to the article, it's just a link to a potential game that hasn't been released and as such adds nothing under WP:EL. Wikipedia is not a collection of links related to topics, it's an encyclopaedia. Ben W Bell talk 06:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That is true, so the summary is anything that is not real of fact; that hasn't been proved to work. Is not allowed on wikipedia? If so why is timetravel on wikipedia? As mattness pointed out, wikipendia is to inform. Not for those who don't think something to happen to pass judgement. Hence any Shadowrun material should be included. Such as the SRO and SRA material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.49.16 (talk) 18:15, 2 July 2007(PDT)

No, because those projects are, at the moment, entirely superfluous. I could say that I'm starting a Shadowrun video game and create a project page on Sourceforge, too. Does that mean that my project deserves inclusion in an encyclopedia? No. And until either of those projects have anything substantial, they don't either. A couple of fairly primitive models and concept art is not a project that merits mention in an encyclopedia. I don't know how versed you are in the hobbyist game development scene you are, but there are thousands of total conversion mods and games that are announced every year. I would say that of those, roughly 90% produce absolutely nothing playable. There is no indication at this point that SRA is in that 10% at this point and every indication at this point that SRO is in the 90%. EvilCouch 05:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

In both cases Shadowrun Online and Shadowrun Awakened, the projects are just not notable enough to be included. I realize that the WP guideline is generally meant for whether an article is notable, but it is a good guideline for this issue as well. If any of these independent projects were covered in reliable sources, then it would be appropriate to include them as specific links. As it is, a line in the computer game section mentioning that there are fan-based independent projects to develop a MMORPG would be fine, but no one of them is notable enough to link to. For the record I would love for one of them to succeed, but that is a different concern than what goes in an encyclopedia article. —MJBurrage • TALK • 09:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Shadowrun Online should never be mentioned again as Microsoft went in and yanked the plug from them. Professionals trying to develop a game for sale using someone elses IP! It was inevitable that it would happen, but it doesn't deserve mention in a encyclopaedia article. Shadowrun Awakened has no more status that a fan made mod to any game, unless it's released and is very successful then it doesn't deserve mention in an encyclopaedic entry. Ben W Bell talk 10:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Dudes, all that "I'm the Wiki editor, I know better than you" has really gone to your heads. Obviously Shadowrun Online should not be mentioned because Microsoft pulled the plug on it, but what about Shadowrun Awakened? One of you says "I could say that I'm starting a Shadowrun video game and create a project page on Sourceforge, too. Does that mean that my project deserves inclusion in an encyclopedia?" Not the same situation, because you don't have permission from Microsoft. Another of you says "unless it's released and is very successful then it doesn't deserve mention in an encyclopaedic entry." What, so if the game sucks then it doesn't deserve to be mentioned? Maybe we should remove entries for Gigli, I mean, that movie wasn't very successful either. What about "From Justin to Kelly"? That movie really bombed. Should it be deleted too, oh so wise wikipedia editors? Because according to what you just said, yes, it should. What about 2020, taking one random entry? "Schapelle Corby to be released from prison for drug trafficking in Indonesia". "February 20, 2020 (the 5th Day of the Week) at Time: 20:20:20, the date will read 2020-02-20 20:20:20." Gosh, I mean, these are really important things! Never mind that they haven't happened yet, they really deserve to be in a wiki entry!

I could point you to several entries of unreleased projects. There are entries for unreleased movies, TV shows, comics, books, and yes, video games. I could point you to "Mushroom Men", another game that isn't even out of the concept art stage, yet it has a wiki entry. Maybe we should go and delete it, huh? I mean, it hasn't been released, and it could very well suck. What's the difference? "Mushroom Men" will be distributed by the Gamecock Media Group, therefore it's worthwhile? Well, Shadowrun Awakened has authorization from Microsoft to work on the project, but according to you, it is not worthy of an entry.

Get real. There may be wikipedia guidelines, but they are rarely enforced. There are thousands of entries that should be deleted if one were to stick to your couple points here. Not to mention, this isn't even about an entry, it's about a link in the "Unofficial Sites". 84.76.145.134 08:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Simple question. Does the external link add any encyclopaedic content that would serve to enhance the article on the Shadowrun Role-playing Game? Simple answer, no. It simply doesn't comply with the WP:EL policies. While Awakened may be authorised by Microsoft at this stage there is no evidence that it is anything more than a fan game being developed by fans for fun, with no evidence to provide strong support that it is in anyway notable or evidence that it will actually be released as most fan produced mod type material never gets released. Ben W Bell talk 10:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So what criteria are you willing to accept before this project meets your approval? Code base? (done) Artwork? (done) Content? (done) Measureable progress? (done). Please, enlighten us. A project, in work and with approval from the license holder in a very neglected genre is severely encyclopedic. Were you familiar with the game system, this would be self evident.Nobuddy 16:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's the thing, man, your project is not yet encyclopedic. You're not the first game project I've seen to get permission from a game's license holder. 99% of all of the game/mod projects I see die without ever producing anything playable. As Mr. Bell pointed out, to get linked, it should enhance the understanding of Shadowrun or be fairly notable on its own merit. #1 is unlikely to happen because of the nature of the project. #2 could happen, but you're pre-alpha, so we're going to hold off here. Convince people that you're not just another indy game/mod team that never finishes their project and you'll have all the support you need. EvilCouch 09:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ares

When Shadowrun was written in the late 1980's, FASA named their gun company Ares. In real life Ares is a gun company, co-founded—and still run at the time—by the inventor of the M-16 and one of the most famous gun-designers in the world. This is an obvious homage, and my link was only there to inform other Shadowrun fans of this piece of trivia. Even if you do not believe it is a deliberate homage, it is still an interesting coincidence worth pointing out. Hence the link I put in the article. —MJBurrage • TALK • 05:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that the origin of the name probably goes directly to Greek mythology rather than Stoner's company, but I could see providing an aside and linking the article. However, linking Ares Industries directly to Ares Incorporated is completely wrong as they're not the same company. EvilCouch 06:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the Shadowrun corporations are based on real life companies. Federated-Boeing obviously, Saeder Krupp is based off the core of BMW and there are others so it is quite possibly they did base it off the real life Area. Ben W Bell talk 08:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, i think Krupp Heavy Industries are based off ThyssenKrupp (Formerly Krupp), which in the shadowrun timeline have bought BMW. Nichlas

[edit] S-Run link

Okay this link www.s-run.com has been added and removed many many times over the history of this article. Most recently it has been added by the person who runs said community and has been removed (mainly by myself) as being spamming promotion for their own site. Now they have mentioned the following on their talk page.

Ben, you obviously did not look into what the #S-Run Community is. The channel #s-run on undernet was formed over 10 years ago as a branch-off of the Dumpshock IRC community over creative differences between administrators. Since I inherited channel admin duties 6 years ago, we have become the largest and most active IRC-based Shadowrun communtiy in the entire world. We run Shadowrun games at least 4 nights out of the week, and have GM's hailing from around the globe. Not even Dumpshock has the amount of IRC traffic and Shadowrun game-playing activity that we pull on a nightly basis. Also, as far as encyclopedic content goes, the 'Shadowrun Datafile' contains adventures, mods, alternate rulesets, shadowrun-related programs, information on movies and music based-on or related to Shadowrun, and plenty more. The community has also been the only one to subtitle and release german-language Shadowrun fan films (winners of the official contest, no less) to the english-speaking public. We may not have the massive amount of content available on some other sites, but our focus is also on getting more and more people to PLAY the game -- instead of just discussing it in forums. As illustrated, our contributions to the Shadowrun fanbase are nothing to scoff at, and I believe we have every right to be included on the wikipedia external links page. My posting the link is not for promotion, but to inform hungry players worldwide that an extremely-active Shadowrun gaming community is available to them 24/7. Thanks for your time and I hope to hear back from you soon. J. Daigle (SuperFly), April 17, 2007, 03:43am CST

So the question is, should this site be one of the allowed links? Community? Ben W Bell talk 09:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere is the link presented as some kind of advertisement for the s-run gaming group or anything of the sort. The website features regularly updated game logs, points out flavour material and supplies some game aids to anyone who wants them.

Dumpshock is pretty much a sci-tech news blog with the forum hosted there being the only real source of Shadowrun information beyond the plethora of 2nd edition sites that are no longer maintained. Whereas s-run provides editionless or 3rd and 4th edition resources which is something sorely lacking from the internet in the way of NERPS (or whatever your preferred phrase is). It is my opinion that the site in fact does not present an advertisement but instead does a good job of keeping track of Shadowrun related materials that are just not found elsewhere at this time. SwordRaven 17:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like useful information to me. If it is relevant to a significant number of people who are interested in Shadowrun--and it sounds like it is--then it should be in. Community sites like this are essential for gamers who live in areas where few others want to play, and given the current state of RPG sales in general and SR specifically, that's probably a majority of SR gamers. Ichoran 05:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quote?

I'm looking for a quote I saw once pertaining to Shadowrunning. I don't recall who said it or the exact wording, but it was to the effect that as your run was ending, someone else's was just starting, and you might be the target. Can anyone clarify this a bit? Grendelthorns 14:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The quote in question is attributed to "Kirk Hoff, street mage" on page 180 in SR2 and goes like this "Never relax. Your run might be over, but someone, somewhere, is just starting his, and the target could be you." It may appear in other editions or source books, but I knew about where it was in SR2 and checked it in my book. EvilCouch 15:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Shadowrun writers and illustrators

In see also section I saw link to Echo Chernik. Maybe it's worth to make full listy of people which contributed in Shadowrun developement?
-mattness

[edit] Wording Quibbles

This section is for discussion of specific choice of wording.

[edit] "Sales were positive"

Interpreted strictly, a product with "positive sales" has sold at least one copy. So saying "sales are positive" can work as a wry geekily-humorous way of saying that you can't say anything better about sales. But mostly, it's a marketing term that means absolutely nothing while trying to engender positive feelings about a product. Whether humorous or marketing-speak, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article, so I have removed it.

However, sales numbers are quite relevant. Traditionally, it's been almost impossible to get numbers on quantities sold, placed in the context of the market, for RPGs. If anyone can find a source for that kind of information (i.e. something that could be referenced), it would be nice to have it in the article. Things like sizes of print runs could also be useful. Does anyone have any leads? Ichoran 13:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I could not find the source, but I clearly remember reading an interview with one of the current writers, in which he revealed that the sales of fourth edition have been very good, and that all of the delays were related to FanPro USA not having any dedicated production staff. The writers were having to do both jobs. —MJBurrage • TALK • 18:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The out-of-print problems and the pre-out-of-print sales rate may not have been related--it is unfortunate that the writers were having to do too much production work. However what do "very good" sales mean? Good compared to what? Sales almost always go up when a new edition is released. Did the interview give any solid details, e.g. were the sales better than for SR3 (either in absolute terms or relative to the size of the RPG market)? Ichoran 16:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] foreign languages

[edit] French SR

I'm not sure about how many translated sourcebooks there are since some of them kept the original title. Maybe somebody knowing SR France better than I do, could check the number. - deus_sociologicus 13:51, 28 Oct 2007

[edit] German SR

some of the German sourcebooks are compilations of original material. E.g. the "Nordamerika-Quellenbuch" (North america sourcebook)contains material from NAN I & II an the Neo-anarchists guide to NA. I'm not sure if these informations are relevant though. - deus_sociologicus 13:55, 28 Oct 2007

[edit] Figurines - Ral Partha & Grenadier

I don't see Ral Partha figurines in this box (they were made for paper RPG, but produced by other company than FASA). I couldn't find info about Grenadier series (it was made by RalPartha?) - maybe SR fans could explain it on wikipedia? Thanks in advance.

mattness —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.148.137 (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)