Talk:Shadow the Hedgehog

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[edit] Is this really a good article?

If so, when did this happen? It isn't on the Good Article list. --LuigiManiac 12:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It was added only yesterday, and I've undone it now. The main warning that it's not quite legit would be that whoever added it put it on the article page instead of this talk page! (A number of additional bizarre edits - repeated paragraphs and things - appear in that differences summary for me, but fortunately don't appear to have actually been added to the article.) --Nick RTalk 13:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted this again, no review was given, clearly not a valid GA pass. Homestarmy 00:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question.

How do you change the main title on pages here? 207.74.196.20 15:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this type of thing should be asked on the article you want to edit, I think you should ask this kind of thing on the talk page on the article of Wikipedia its self. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.98.29 (talk) 01:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lengty section

"Major interactions with other characters" seems to be incredibly long. Can someone split up this section into smaller parts or summarize it? Earthere 01:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)Earthere

Two other topics in this talk page have already discussed the massive length of the interactions section as well as the game history and abilities sections (probably a few others deserve to be thought about too), and it went nowhere. I think we fans are too lazy unless its about who Rouge is really in love with or whether or not to capitalize the T of the word "the" in Sonic the Hedgehog, lol Cigraphix 21:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

oh wait my bad, the abilities section was fixed up alittle Cigraphix 21:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I went and cleaned up the "History" section a little bit. Maybe I'll try and do that later. --Ultima 21:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I updated that section, as well. However, I renamed it to 'Relationships' as it's a shorter term. --Ultima 00:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sonic wasn't holding Shadow's Flame Ring upgrade (SA2 end)

I'm referring to the third paragraph under "Abilities". It was a Ring from his wrists (or ankles). If you take note into the few seconds it appears in the ending cutscene, you are able to see how it is a brighter color and smoother compared to the Flame Ring (where Sonic is wearing his in the same shot). Not to mention that the Flame Ring has dark edges on it, which is nowhere seen on the Ring Sonic is holding.

You can look at the video for yourself (it appears at 4:25 until 4:50): http://youtube.com/watch?v=UafoKSTLwhc

Besides, if that doesn't appease you, remember that its possible to beat the Dark/Final story without collecting Shadow's Flame Ring, since you need the Air Shoes from White Jungle to collect it back in Radical Highway (via light dash). And you can figure out the rest of what I mean.

Sonic X's take on that scene was not different in what Sonic was holding.

--Jinjo Ace 20:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There has been alot of confusion on this topic. I think there may actually be a differnce between versions of the game (PAL, NTSC and JAP). I have the PAL version and sonic is holding shadow's flame ring. MindWraith 00:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't look like Shadow's Flame Ring, but it must be, because Shadow has all of his rings in Sonic Heroes. MegaWhatt 17:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Shadow's strength really noteworthy

I have to ask because if you remember all the feats of strength Sonic has shown as well. In SA2, Sonic can knock cars and other vehicles around like soccer balls in City Escape. And in Sonic X, I remember thinking during an episode "since when did Sonic have super strength?" as he struggled to hold something impossible large as if he were Knuckles (I can't remember the specific episode and can't actually go back and view any since the series is off the air, but I remember being annoyed by the ability blurring) Cigraphix 19:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I can recall an episode in Sonic X as well, in Episode 13, Sonic is pinned against the wall by Eggman's robot fueled by two Chaos Emeralds. He managed to push himself again the palm enough to break free. There is no doubt that the entire Sonic cast has some sort of unnatural strength. --Jinjo Ace 20:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
SONIC X IS NOT CANON! I'm sure Sonic is unusually strong, but don't de-noteworthyify Shadow's strength until we have a reference to his strength from in the games/manuals, or from another reliable GAME-BASED source. ToaDjango 14:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Sonic kicking around cars and trollies like soccer balls isn't enough? I thought that fact would make them similar not different, and no profile has ever made mention of it so Sonic Team must not think it is as noteworthy as it is for Knuckles. Cigraphix 16:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem with this is that it's gameplay. We can't base Sonic's actual abilities on the gameplay unless it is actually stated by the characters, or even better, in a cut scene/official profile. In Shadow the Hedgehog, Shadow is specifically referenced as being quite strong. Sonic is never said to have this ability. --Ultima 01:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok but does anyone know what these quotes were? There were probably at least 3 (Shadow in Neutral, Sonic & Co in Hero, Black Doom in Dark) and I have trouble motivating myself with that game, unlike the Adventure games. Cigraphix 14:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
What quotes, exactly? Gurko 08:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The in-game audio hints spoken by the characters, there must have been a mention of it. Also the manual might have something. Cigraphix 13:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean in Shadow The Hedgehog, Shadow could flip a bus!

I was hoping they would provide a better way of writing about his strength. Well I worked up some motivation and checked but they don't even mention strength: "I can flip that with the X button" "Hey Shadow you can flip certain objects with the X button" etc. The biggest problem I have with how his strength is included now is that psycho Shadow fanatics will use it to compare Shadow's strength to that of Knuckles, when Shadow has not been classified as a power character. I would think that Sonic kicking around cars like soccer balls in City Escape would prove bus tipping was not a big feat and his strength was unremarkable, unlike how Knuckles would smash gigantic meteor-like things into traveling long distances or into breaking open containers in SA2 Meteor Herd. Don't get me wrong, I like Shadow (in fact I like every major character of the Big 7 equally), but these crazy Shadow fans who say "Shadow is faster than Sonic, as strong as Knuckles, can fly like Tails, is now Sonic's arch rival instead of Eggman, and has stolen the crush of Rouge from Knuckles" (and one even recently tried to include AMY'S crush being stolen by Shadow), just drive me nuts! I'm surprised none have yet proposed that Shadow is in fact a combination of speed, power, and flight and is thus a "god" character (psycho Shadow fan: "Well he is immortal" *I scream and whack him on the head*). Cigraphix 03:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Notice the only real time you see Sonic doing stuff like that is when he's going really fast? The reason they never list it is because Sonic's power is directly influenced by his speed. That's why the only time he shoves cars and stuff is when he's moving at high speeds. Shadow on the other hand, can do strength stuff while stationary.MegaWhatt 14:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well my goal was to cast doubt on Shadow's strength being noteworthy by their being kinda close in strength, if not equal, by the very fact that Sonic can do that - regardless of how. It is hard to prove anything about Sonic's strength since it is not in his character to go around flipping busses if he could, and his kicking cars and trollies around was sort of played up as unintentional since it slowed him down. But I must point out that none of the quotes from the games or manuals specifically mention Shadow's strength ("Just push B to flip it").
However I noticed in Shadow's abilities section that someone put that Shadow's strength "is greater than Sonic's." I must note that I do strongly object to saying that one character is definitely stronger or faster than another (unless comparing a speed character like Sonic to a power character like Knuckles - not including flight characters like Tails and Rouge who are bouncy on speed/power). Since Sonic has never tried to show his full lifting power, such a statement is speculation. Also defining such things as who is stronger/faster is a bad idea as Sonic Team likes changing them from game to game - take Tails and Amy's speed as examples: in Sonic Adventure Tails' speed was second only to Sonic in the game, Amy was so slow she couldn't even outrun a car in Station Square, but in Sonic 06 Tails has been said to be as slow as Silver, while Amy became speed formation leader in Sonic Heroes. So since Sonic Team doesn't seem to hold to any canon stats, speculating on who is stronger/faster in regards to characters like Sonic/Shadow, who are both speed characters, or Knuckles/Big, who are both power characters, or any flight character, since they are so undefined (you'd think Rouge is more power and Tails is more speed right?), may be easily proven incorrect in another game, and such speculation should not be included in Wikipedia. (exception is paid to Sonic/Shadow compared to fellow speed leaders Amy/Espio - Sonic/Shadow are obviously faster than Amy/Espio) Cigraphix 05:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, the point I'm trying to make is that in the case of Sonic, velocity equals power, thus Sonic's power is unobtainable without speed. I think the manual of the Shadow the Hedgehog game says Shadow has a "powerful body" or something, whereas I cannot remember any manual calling Sonic powerful, just a whole bunch of synonyms for "fast". I do not believe that Shadow is better than all characters... just Sonic. But biases aside, I am willing to settle for the statement that their strength "is at a similar level" or "equal" or something like that. After all, I'm confident that Shadow could kick Sonic's butt at a number of other things (this is why I also accept that their speed is at least equal).
Just out of curiosity, who's in the Big 7?MegaWhatt 00:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand your point, and consensus seems to think Shadow's strength is noteworthy, even though Sonic Team never explicitly mentions it in profiles or in cutscenes. The point I'm trying to make now is that it is speculation to compare the strength of two speed characters, like Shadow and Sonic. Regardless of whether you take the car kicking as a sign of Sonic's strength or not, saying that one is stronger than the other - or even saying they are equal - is speculation, because you don't know for certain what their max strength is to do a comparison (and if you don't think Sonic's car kicking is using his strength, then you have never seen Sonic use his strength in the games). Now if Shadow flipped a bus, and then Sonic attempted to flip a bus of equal weight and couldn't, then you could say one is stronger than the other, but Sonic never attempted such a thing. And besides that fact, Sonic Team is notorious for changing character stats between games (refer back to my Tails/Amy speed example). The only safe way to compare Shadow's strength to anybody else's is to compare it to a power character, like Knuckles, and say "Shadow is strong, but not as strong as Knuckles." That is because it is established, and continues to be held true, that power characters are stronger than speed characters, speed characters are faster than power characters, and Sonic and Shadow are just faster than everybody.
...and the "Big 7" was just a way of refering to the most important characters of the Sonic franchise: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Rouge, and Eggman. Cream almost made it 8 but has only been doing cameo roles that have nothing to do with the main story after Sonic Heroes. Omega is actually threatening to add himself in as #8, but only if he establishes his longevity and overall importance to the series (which could be in the form of Mephiles prophesy from Sonic 06) - right now he still has to get over being just a knock-off of Gamma that hangs with Shadow and Rouge now and then.

Whether that counts or not, in Sonic Battle Shadow's 1st, 2nd and 3rd attacks are stated to be more powerful than that of any other character (except gamma's and the ultimates) even that of Knuckles' (Shadow's attacks have 3 points at strenght and the others have 2 points) though that could be miscalculated. 83.31.141.9 11:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The "Sonic snowboarding in SA2B and knocking down cars" argument is ridiculous! The fact is that Sonic is super-fast. Think about a bullet. A human weighs much more than this tiny object. A human is obviously larger. But when the bullet is fired a high speeds (which nowhere near compare to mach one or higher) the human will be knocked over when hit by the bullet. Correct? I think that comparing Sonic and his weight and speed to that of a bullet and a human to a car is ridiculous. If travelling fast enough Sonic should be able to knock over huge robots like the Egg Emperor, so a car should be no small task, as he is much faster and larger than any bullet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.87.12 (talk) 18:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This arguement has been over for a while. I let it go, even though I felt it was true, because it didn't really bother me until pycho Shadow fans started posting insinuations that Shadow is stronger than Sonic and Knuckles. But no, that argument was not ridiculous. In SA2 Battle (the Gamecube version), there is a trolley just after the very first bottomless pit in City Escape. Simply walk into that trolley at Sonic's lowest speed and he'll kick it into the air and onto its roof like he were blazing at full speed - he can also knock around cars with a simple somersault from a standing position. There is also the matter that bullets tear THRU things, Sonic was knocking them out of his way. But I am not starting this again, just don't insult my reasoning.
Also Shadow is NOT stronger than Knuckles, if those Sonic Battle stats are true (I don't feel like looking them up) then they defy canon established in more important games:
  • Knuckles bats around massive solid rocks in Meteor Herd and destroys massive objects thruout SA2 and Heroes - Shadow couldn't do that in those games, and all of those things are far larger than any bus or whatever that thing was Shadow flipped in Westopolis (which was mostly hollow passenger space)
  • Battle says Shadow is faster than Sonic, yet SA2, Heroes, and Shadow's game say Sonic and Shadow are equal in both the gameplay stats and manuals, while Sonic06 says Sonic is faster in both gameplay (mach speed zones) and website (Shadow's bio on website says he 'nearly rivals' Sonic).
  • Battle is designed so any character stands a chance against any other character – so Cream can beat Shadow, Sonic, or Knuckles ...yea, ok
Battle is just a little hand held game that Sonic Team didn't spend too many resources on (and may have even farmed some out to THQ or Dimps or something), it cannot usurp more important games that had like multimillions invested into them like SA2, Heroes, Shadow, and Sonic06 Cigraphix 22:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right that Battle is pretty much moronic when it comes to cannon continuency, but I never claimed that Shadow is stronger than Knuckles. Knuckles is more physicly powerful than Shadow. Okay, I'm a major Shadow fan, and Shadow isn't every type. He is not speed, power, and fly. However, he does have some considerable abilities. On the Sonic knocks over a trolley from near standstill point you have to consdider that the game was originally intended for and was designed using Dreamcast technology. It is doubtful than they could have had he game determine if Sonic was going fast enough to knock over said object and so the point is not valid. I agree that Knuckles is much stronger physically but I still defer that modern game references are more acurate as SEGA is increasingly getting better technology to show in what instances what character can do what. Shadow flips busses from standstill (no momentum involved whatsover) in Shadow, which is modern technology gaming. Dreamcast is like sub sub modern or something. Knuckles has greater physical strength than Shadow, Shadow has greater physical strength than Sonic, Sonic has greater speed than Shadow, Sonic has greater strength than Tails, and that's about where the list should end. Sonic's place as "the fastest thing alive" should be respected, but he is no superhuman hedgehog. Whereas Shadow is inarguably designed for one purpose, cold, deadly, efficient killing. And who breeds a killer without giving them some muscles? So wither Gerald is a genius idiot, or Shadow's somewhat superstrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.74.43 (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In his abilities. If you're talking him lifting a bus, thats a Gameplay mechanic. Not official.--Neofcon (talk) 16:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, Shadow can lift a bus in game with one hand, and it's not official, but Sonic Chaos Controls frequently in the final battle with Shadow in SA2 and people frequently won't shut up about how Sonic is supposedly "equal in ability to use Chaos Control to Shadow" when in obvious reality, Sega just needed a mechanic to keep Sonic from being left in the dust. I agree that in level gameplay mechanics can't be trusted, but they should count for something, not just be ignored. For example, that instance of Chaos Control DOES NOT prove Sonic can use Chaos Control at will, and DOES NOT prove that Sonic is an equally powerful user of Chaos Control if compared to Shadow. However, it DOES prove that he is capable of using Chaos Control, as if he wasn't the ability wouldn't be in the game. IN GENERAL, that should be the rule. However, occasionally, this rule is fudged by Sega. For example, anyone who's played Sonic Heroes knows that when flying, Cream lifts Big, who weighs like 60,000 lbs. So Cream is actually capable of lifting over thirty tons. Right.... and an orca can keep up with Sonic when he can run the "speed of sound" i.e. aproximately 700 mph. You are right in your own right, but consider the points I've made in this post before judging in game mechanics so quickly. After all, your theory completely negates Sonic's "trolley incident". And so thus leaves us with no proof but the damned Battle stats... Which makes Shadow stronger and faster. (Remember, Sonic being faster is a "gameplay mechanic" of Rivals and Sonic 06). Ouch to the Sonic favoring argument. User:Radman622 02:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Firstly: Well uh....I guess they're just as stupid to believe that then, what with sonic being obviously tired after using Chaos Control for the first time in his life IN THE DIRECT CUTSCENE THAT SHOWED HIM USE THE DAMN ABILITY!. So yes he can use it (as proven in the two cutscenes from SA2 and the two cutscenes in 06 as well)

Secondly: They only count to get you through the level by the laws of physics the game developers set for you. If they announce them as actual abilities, alright, but dont try to convince me that game mechanics count for anything when Sonic and Knuckles in Heroes can't even clear a high edge without being lifted up by tails. Or Knuckles causing fire attacks.

Thirdly: Cream and every fly character is programmed to lift the other two characters regardless of actual abilities so that they can get through the level. The orca in SA1 is added for a cinematic feel, and tell me, are you actually running at 700 mph in game? It's impossible even with speed codes on. The coding for that particular area will slow you down so the orca can keep up, leaving you with speeders to help you get passed it (and you'll never die on this part either because this is the only part of the game that is glitch free.)

Fourthly: Explain the trolly incident if you will.--Neofcon (talk) 03:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The trolley incident is just another example of fanboy bias. In SA2 (or SA2B if you will, which if you're an idiot stands for Sonic Adventure 2), in Sonic 's first level, he "snowboards" down a street. While snowboarding, he can knock over cars, which will fall down the street. I agrued that even if this counted for anything towards Sonic having super strenth (in gameplay physics mechanic) that the effect was likely a "bullet effect". I.E., a bullets mass translates to a large degree more force than you would suppose when it is moving migh speeds, and thus Sonic could be considered a very large, fast, bullet, capable of knocking over cars and giant robots ect, WHEN HE IS GOING VERY FAST. However, these ninnies won't shut up about how if you brake at the bottom of the hill and go very slow, you can hit the trolley and still knock it over. I told them "It's a Dreamcast! What do you expect! Even you said in game counts for nothing!". I get really tired of bias, don't you? User:Radman622 17:33, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Who you callin a ninny fanboy with a bias, Mr. "self-proclaimed Sonic master" whose "favorite character is the mighty Shadow"? BTW, the trolley spoken of was in a part after the boarding - while Sonic was on foot (it doesn't appear in the Dreamcast version). The reason this arguement was made was because so much stuff that appeared in a single game was used in this and other articles that it seemed to be a concensus that certain game-specific abilities (especially anything that hinted at stats) should be included. The instigator was repeated assertions that Shadow is stronger than Sonic (which is very speculative) and that Shadow's strength is in any way rivals that of Knuckles (which is extremely incorrect). Cigraphix (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I applaud you Cigraphix, for being smart (or nosy) enough to know the old phrase "know your enemy". Nice job there poking around my user page. (I do notice however, that you tried to discredit me rather than my arguments, thereby practically confirming them with your jargon. Way to go!) However, last time I heard, having an opinion does not make you biased. Twisting truth to fit your opinion is bias. Truth is debateable, so I won't go there. However, I try to be fair to all characters. Sonic is a very cool character who is quite possible (as some more recent games suggest) faster than Shadow. I have NEVER believed that Shadows muscular strength was greater than Knuckles' if you'll believe that then you'll believe Big is smarter than Eggman. But I have this to say: if you belive that IN GAME stuff counts for nothing, there is nothing to support Sonic being faster. If you do, there is clearly content which suggests Shadow can flip a bus with one hand. The ammount of strength required to achive this is debateable, but when was the last time you saw someone do it? The road goes both ways. Besides, the agument originally was not "Is Shadow strong", but rather "Is Shadow's strength noteworthy". I would say so! Someone can practically lift a bus and you don't want to give them recognition! Quite a shame. I admit, I made some rash words condemning bias, but I just get so sick and tired of the bickering. They're both cool characters (I just happen to think Shad a little cooler) and I don't see why one side of the "Who's better" war has to degrade the other's character. If Sonic really is faster, he deserves recognition for that. If Shadow is stronger... you know what comes next. Has Sonic lifted any busses? I would say not. I that, I believe, handily concludes this argument. (Even though I know you're probably jumping to ream me out, and that it probably WON'T be the end, good day good sir, you and all the other overly vicous Sonic AND Shadow fanboys are worthy opponents, but not up to the challenge.)Still believe I am Self Proclaimed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs) 07:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Look at that response again, I purposfully only addressed your bias claim. I said 4 months ago that I was done with the arguement, but I couldn't stand by and let you say it was all just a fanatical anti-Shadow fan trying to illegitimately downgrade the character. I really did not appreciate your comments and pointed out the hypocrisy of you dismissing someone else as a biased fanboy. Did you even read what was said above? The biased claim was made and debunked already. And one last thing, Neofcon is making a different arguement that has nothing to do with the trolley incident. Cigraphix (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, Cigraphix, I'm sorry if I insulted you. I just get really tired of endless bickering and fighting, and once it starts I instincively get ruthless to protect what I believe to be the truth. I wasn't quite understanding where the argument was going, and I'm sorry if I offended you. I do agree that it is not all Sonic fan's fault, but most fans are NOT making an attempt to be fair to both sides. And when your opponents play dirty, you have to get down a bit yourself. I really am sorry, but I still hold by my major point, which was: if in game references don't count, (Shadow's not stronger then) then you have to discount ALL of them which are not backed up by official statements (Sonic's not really faster then). Which is fair. Personally, it doesn't matter that much, and I would like to OFFICIALLY conclude this argument (unless you'd like to apologize too, or something???). Good day to you all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea I never mean for a discussion to degenerate down to bickering and I'm sorry that this one was. Cigraphix (talk) 14:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

ok this thing is finally over lemme get something straight sonic is faster than tails,shadow is stronger than sonic,sonic is a litle bit faster than shadow and knux is stronger than shadow got it? Sure...for the sake of keeping this argument closed, Imma say yes...even though no proof of who is better than who exists (aside from Sonic's often mentioned title “Fastest thing alive”, which is canon). My last comment can stop this discussion if you listen. Ahem, Shut up! This isn't the place for your fanboyish claims masked in polite, 1800's type dialect that provide you to look like an intellectual. Newcomers will come into the conversation, like me, and try to figure out everything from what is stated above. Don't ask who is stronger, this isn't a forum.--SxeFluff (talk) 03:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arch-rival thing

I have found proof stating that Shadow is Sonic's arch-rival... the back of the Shadow the Hedgehog game case says, "Uncover the truth about Sonic's arch-rival, Shadow the Hedgehog". This means that Shadow is Sonic's arch-rival. Eggman is the arch-enemy of Sonic. MegaWhatt 21:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks right to me. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 00:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Great, but let's wait for more opinions on it... I don't want to add something incorrectly.MegaWhatt 00:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I think opinion at this point is moot; Shadow has been declared as Sonic's arch-rival by an official, published source. It thus passes the tests of both truth and verifiability. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 03:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The actual meaning of enemy is one who tries to destroy or waylay and does not feel sympathy or affection for <insert subject>. A rival is is one who attempts to accomlish symilar goals or objectives better or faster than <insert subject>, and is somewhat competitive with <subject> although no real harm is intended. So Mario and Luigi could be considered as rivals in racing and sports games and such. Sonic and Shadow are definately rival type peoples, but are they "arch" rivals... hard to say. Sonic has aquired a large list of enemies and rivals over the years, which is now huge enough to be ridiculous. It's a bit tough to place any one charecter at the top of the list, but I think it's fair to say that Shadow is Sonic's arch rival, for now anyways. Radman 02:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the way I see it, the only people who could even come close to Shadow on the rival list are Knuckles and Metal Sonic. But Knuckles is a bit too friendly with Sonic to be a true archrival, and Metal Sonic has had few appearances as of late.MegaWhatt 17:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Meh, Metal Sonic's more of an "enemy"... hell, he copied everyone's data and transformed into a massive dragon just to slaughter Sonic. That is definitely a Grade-A enemy. --Luigifan 11:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I definitely agree with Luigifan 100%. Metallix is NOT a rival. Does a rival hate and despise? Does a rival try to kill? Usually not. Presently, Shadow has not tried to kill Sonic canonically, and Metal Sonic hates Sonic TO THIS VERY DAY. He's definitely a major enemy of Sonic's, probably Team Sonic, and whether or not the other characters claim him as their enemy, he's a threat to the whole world, as shown in Sonic Heroes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.87.12 (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-hero

I know, this seems to have been debated a lot, and I know I make a lot of arguments about stuff, but I find this to be incorrect. Look at the stuff Shadow has done on the heroic side. 1. Helped save the world from a collision with a large Space Colony and a giant lizard, almost giving up his life in the process.
2. While it is true that the above disaster was caused by Shadow, this was only because of being misled to believe that it was his friend's death wish (and hey, who wouldn't want to get some revenge if your best friend was shot up before your very eyes... I doubt even Sonic himself wouldn't want to spill some blood if something bad happened to Tails.)
3. Helped Sonic stop Metal Sonic by distracting Metal Madness.
4. Saved the world by himself from an alien menace. It is also of note that in the canonical ending he showed no hesitation towards stopping Black Doom.
5. He believed himself to be a weapon, saying that he would have to be destroyed for there to be peace. If that ain't a load of selfless heroic depressing crap, I don't know what is.
6. Apparently joined G.U.N (although the organization is questionable), and performed multiple heroic things, even saving Sonic... let me repeat that... SONIC!!! He showed no real problem working with Sonic either.
7. Helped Silver to realize that Mephiles lied to him.
8. Even after discovering that humanity would turn on him, reprogramming one of his closest friends to capture and seal him away, he did not turn on the world, instead continuing to fight.
9. He seemed sad when Sonic died, closing his eyes with a sad expression on his face. Now, would an anti-hero be sad at the death of a hero with whom he happens to have a record of hostility? I think NOT!
10. Saved Eggman, Rouge, and the world from Eggman Nega.

Let's compare that to the villainous side of things.

1. Almost destroyed the world (although as mentioned above, his reasoning is slightly less villainous than most others)
2. Fought Sonic a good number of times (though he did not initiate the fight in Sonic Heroes, and the one in Shadow the Hedgehog is questionable). Well, what about Knuckles? He's fought Sonic so many times, he could write a book on how to properly fight Sonic, but he's not an anti-hero.
3. Potentially killed various G.U.N Soldiers (although this is noncanonical). Had he retained his memories, he probably would not have done that.

And now things I'm neutral about.

1. The use of firearms and vehicles. While this does not scream heroic, it does not make him a villain either. Not unless he's aiming at the wrong people, which we have no canonical truth of. MegaWhatt 01:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Your words ring turth MegaWhatt, but... Shadow is NOT a hero. He only saves the world for his own purposes or reasons, while Sonic simply does it because it's right. I know that you could argue that Sonic is simply a far more heroic hero, and that a hero could be umheroic, or reluctant, but I think he's more of a "leaning towards good, not really sure what side he's on half the time, not quite in the Sonic Heroes club, Anti Hero" rather than Dark or Neutral Anti Hero. You see, I think there should be three kinds of Anti Heroes, Dark, Neutrals, and Good. Darks are somewhat evil Neutral people, Neutrals are not good or evil, and Goods are people loke Rouge, Shadow, (in another series, sorry it's an example) Wolverine, Han Solo, etc. So while I agree that Shadow is undoubtably more good than evil (the professor's wishes came true. Perhaps not his crazy, deranged, final intentions, but his goal all the same is complete). However he is not, of present, a full fledged hero, becuase as you stated, he has joined a questionable military organization (they murdered everyone aboard ARK), and once did evil or questionable acts for excusable or good reasons. So Shadow, at least not yet, is NOT a hero. Radman 02:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

All of that is true, MW, but his personality also still seems to be quite like the one in Sonic X. And in Sonic X, he did work with Eggman after his reintroduction in the Meterex saga and then tried to kill Cosmo for being a spy. The similarities between the personalities of Game Shadow and X Shadow make it seem likely that Game Shadow would do the same things X Shadow did. This is compounded by his interactions with Eggman in Sonic 06, in which he seemed to act like they were simply temporary opponents rather than enemies. But otherwise he is teetering on the edge of becoming out-right hero instead of anti-hero. Additionally, the rest of Team Dark (Rouge and Omega) seem to be difficult to classify as "Anti-Heroes"– as they have more villainous goals (Rouge wants to get rich by theft, Omega wants to rule the world—I think, sometimes Omega seems to lack a motivation), as compared to anti-heroes who achieve heroic goals with villainous or questionable methods. I've advocated reflecting this in the Sonic character template by using "Dark" instead to respond to the slight ambiguity and sometimes murky-ness in their alignment. I'm not fully certain I get Rad's 3-tiered anti-hero scheme though, it always seemed that anti-heroes were either good people who feel the ends justified the means like Batman, good people who have no heroic qualities and are forced to do something good like Howard the Duck, or neutral/evil with a glimmer of good inside them threatening to turn them good (they just need coaxing of some sort, often by a woman but sometimes a friend, mentor, or event)—Solo, InuYasha, and Wolverine are good examples of this. Cigraphix 03:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Hey, the heroes were basically at war with the Metarex, and in war, a spy who gets caught is going to recieve no mercy; they're going to be sent straight to the execution chamber! Of course, Shadow's like, "Who needs an execution chamber? I'll do it myself! KILL THE SPYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!" *epic fight with Tails* --Luigifan 11:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Those are all really good points. I keep forgetting that I have to look at what Shadow's done in the past, even if Shadow did put it behind him. But I still disagree that he only saves the world for his own purposes or reasons. If that was the case, why save the world in Shadow the Hedgehog? It was the right thing to do. Why stop Solaris from devouring time? It was the right thing to do.
As for Rouge and Omega... They are kinda easy to classify as Anti-heroes when you look at it the right way. Rouge's motives aren't villainous, just selfish. She doesn't want world domination or mass destruction or anything like that... she just wants self-gratification. Proof of this lies in Sonic Adventure 2, when Rouge says "All the world's gems are mine to keep!". This suggests that she has a high opinion of herself, and believes that she is entitled to much more than she really is. She's not crazy, not evil, just egocentric and self-centered at times. She has proven to be generous and selfless at times, but the fact that she is a jewel thief means that she is an Anti-hero.
In Omega's case, he's obviously an Anti-hero, because while his motives are dark and vengeful, his actions throughout the series qualify as "noble". He and Sonic share the same archenemy in a sense, but while Sonic is a hero with enough moral fiber to allow Eggman to escape and continue to plan again and again... Omega's another story. He's not out to save the world, feed the hungry, protect the innocent, get the girl, or any of that hero stuff. Omega is a ticked off robot with a lust for revenge against his creator, and the abilities to kill Eggman and anyone who sees fit to get in the way of any of his priorities (as shown in Sonic 2006 when he succeeded in the future to capture the Ultimate Life Form, which was his new mission). He's even suggested in Shadow the Hedgehog that he may have plans to lead the Eggman Empire himself "Doctor Eggman, I will destroy you, and reign supreme!". However, previous statements from Sonic Heroes contradict this. In Sonic Heroes, Omega not only wanted to kill Eggman, but destroy Eggman's other robots to prove his superiority. Here's the problem... Omega can't want to destroy all of Eggman's robots and lead the Eggman Empire (which consists solely of Eggman robots). Either way, while Omega's motives are dark, his actions are "heroic". In addition, although he originally teamed up with Shadow and Rouge to stop Eggman, he has apparently grown somewhat fond (as fond of something as a robot can be that is) of them, as shown when he didn't mention Eggman once in Sonic 2006, and even helped Shadow stop an enemy who had nothing to do with Eggman. Either way, I hope Omega will not ever take control of the Empire, for if he does, it may result in him coming into conflict with his closest (and only) friends, Shadow and Rouge. I believe that in the event Omega came to power, he would be a much greater threat than Eggman ever was, which would draw in all the Sonic cast.MegaWhatt 16:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Omega has been protrayed quite inconsistantly, perhaps his "reign supreme" line is being taken far too broadly and he only means prove he is the most powerful Eggman robot (like Sonic wants to "reign supreme" as the undisputed fastest over Shadow and Jet)-I'll have to check out the Shadow game when I get the chance to see if he includes his own robotic empire into it (mistaken meanings are frequent in the Sonic community if you haven't noticed-"is the Shadow in SA2 the same Shadow that appears in the flashbacks, and did he ever even meet Maria?"-yea thats the kind of mistaken meanings i'm talking about). However your Rouge argument, as I understand it, threatens to classify Eggman as an anti-hero. Both have goals that are selfish, egotistical, and associated with villians. Both goals also have them enforce their will and dominate others, Eggman's is just a grander scale. But in the Sonic Rush manual Eggman's bio says he wants to build a utopia-which probably amounts to "i'll let you live happily if you accept me as your ruler"-and he shows loyalty to his own people in the ShTH's Last Story: "he betrayed his own people for research? for Black Doom?" Meanwhile Rouge shows affection and concern only for her friends, but thinks nothing about how her victims feel after she steals from them. If you look at it, take away their goals of theft and world conquest and they are essentially heroes. So if your definition of anti-hero downplays the outright villiany of grand theft in favor of actions saving the world and showing concern for others, why would it establish a double standard for Eggman? Cigraphix 19:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
You know, I usually hate getting into arguments like this in my life at school... but that's probably because the idiots I'm arguing with at school don't have a valid point at all. However, I am thoroughly enjoying this, because you have incredibly valid points that force me to struggle to keep my own point valid. I personally believe that it's because Eggman IS on a grander scale. He's attempted murder (in SA2), enslavement (in earlier days with his robots), even kidnapping. Rouge just steals gems, which isn't half as bad, because it doesn't put anyone in grave danger. And I'm sorry to say this, but you're statement about my definition of anti-hero downplaying "the outright villainy of grand theft in favor of actions saving the world and showing concern for others", that's just silly. Of course it does. Saving the world is a feat of heroism that far outweighs the crime of grand theft. The only game in which Rouge is truly portrayed as being on the "dark" side revealed that she was really on the hero side at the request of the government, thus not dark at all. Here's the way I see it. An anti-villain has "heroic goals, villainous methods"... anti heroes have "Selfish goals, but are usually portrayed with the heroes", just like Rouge. Following this definition, Eggman is a sort of morally ambiguous combination. He appears to believe what he is doing is right, but at the same time he has villainous methods. As you said yourself however, his goals are also selfish and egotistical to a certain degree, which is seen by the way he plasters his logo on anything and everything he possesses, and in the endings of recent games he is seen siding with and helping the heroes. Omega's "reign supreme" quote seems to suggest that he wants power because in the hero ending of the neutral path, Shadow says "I am Shadow Android, the ultimate battle life form created by Eggman. You may have created me Doctor, but I will now lead this empire and androids will rule!". You'd think, given that Omega has discovered that his friend is actually an Eggman robot (which he has vowed to destroy all of) and is intending to lead an empire comprised of the same robots, Omega would have let loose and filled Shadow full of bullets. But no, Omega only intends to finish what he started without so much as an objection toward's Shadow's goals. Why? He was thinking the same thing, that's why. Selfish or villainous methods and objectives, sides with heroes... anti-hero. MegaWhatt 00:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I took so long to post back, you put alot of thought into your arguements and I didn't feel I should post until I had something up to par. Unfortunatly, the best I came up with was from other fiction, and even non-fiction (a Katrina hero who, after saving a bus-load of lives, is arrested and villified for drugs), had nothing to do with Sonic. But truth be told, I think I was using an outdated version of the anti-hero page to base my arguement on. I never even thought to re-check out the link that I included in my own post, and now that I have, i've noticed that it has changed alot since the last time I was there. I've never even heard of this "anti-villian" thing before, and I know for certain it wasn't there last time I was on that page. But I do have to say one thing, 'anti-hero' is not only confusingly broad, it has changed way too much as well. Thanks though, it was actually was fun and kinda informative. Cigraphix 22:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

So after reading all of and agreeing with most of what has been posted so far, I will state my opinion. Shadow is an anti-hero, who is increasingly doing good deeds, but has had a history of evil or selfish acts. Rouge is a thief, and thus is and anti-hero, but seems heroic. Omega does want revenge and is willing to kill/destroy whatever gets in his way, but he seems to be able to make friends, and does not really want to cause destruction and death on a large scale, and is a anti-hero. Eggman wants to conquer the world, and has done extremly villanous acts (or attempted to) to acomplish this. While he may think he is righteous in his own right, or even stop the world from being destroyed on occasion, it is usually an outcome of his own evil plot, and he only does it becuase he can't rule a destroyed world. Mass murdering, power lusting, and self justified, egotistical maniac, Eggman is at the very least, as you call it an anti villain. However, I think he fits all the checks of a full fledged villain, even lying to Shadow about his past, and wanting to kill Sonic and several other obvious heroes. Eggman is evil. Perhaps not true, black hearted, nefarious, foul, cruel evil, like Metal Sonic, Mephiles, or Black Doom, but nonetheless, evil. However, on Shadow, does a hero swear and use guns? Now I know that I usually am furious when someone argues that one game, but I'll do it anyways. When was the last hero you saw shooting a gun and swearing? That counts for Omega too (maybe not the swearing part, but still). So Eggman is not a anti hero and Shadow is STILL not a hero. Radman 23:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Now I thought I had concluded this argument, but then I played Shadow in Sonic Next Gen. He seems heroic in that game, not swearing, not gun wielding, just saving Rouge and other innocent people from dying and refusing to take retribution on humanity for betraying him, and also saving the universe from Solaris. I don't know any more... Perhaps Sega's next Sonic game will shed some light on this ever dark and ambigous character... 71.222.74.43 19:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Just for the record, Besides his attempting to get the Chaos emeralds in "Shadow the Hedgehog" (Which even THAT is debatable, since he was an Amnesic in that game, and his "own reasons" for trying to find the Chaos emeralds in that game is so he can remember his past. It's no different than what Peter Petrelli did when He had Amnesia.), and trying to destroy the planet in his first appearance (Which was because he [Incorrectly] believed it to be Maria's last wish.), I don't really see how Shadow was selfish. Also, about the question "what kind of hero uses guns and swears a lot?" well, Let's see, there's Leon S. Kennedy, there's Ghost Rider, and there are other examples that I can't think of at the moment (Yes, I know they AREN'T Sonic characters, but bear with me).

~~Weedle_Mchairybug~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.151.230 (talk) 13:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

PS, I almost forgot. Someone here said that Shadow being a "Hero" was debatable also because he is currently working for GUN, which the organization in ITSELF was morally ambiguous. Well, I just wanted to point out that, canon or not, Sonic DID at one point work for (well, ok, he more made an alliance with them, but still...) GUN in Shadow the Hedgehog when Shadow fought against him AND the Diablo Mech prototype as the final boss (either in Hero/Dark Ending, Semi-Dark/Dark ending, or Dark/Dark ending), [Sardonic]I guess we should move Sonic into the Anti hero category because of that, huh?[/Sardonic] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.151.230 (talk) 02:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Every character has the right to ally themselves with villains when the world is a stake. I suppose all the times that Sonic has allied with Eggman make him a villian? Still, it is true that heros CAN swear and use guns, but it's not a very common hero trait. Besides, Sega seems to be moving in a different direction with Shadow now than they were in Shadow the hedgehog anyways, as I stated above. Also, you yourself admitted that almost everything in Shth is debateable, and so thus you cannot use a story ending to prove a point as it is NOT cannon that Sonic and Diablo fought Shadow. When arguing, don't use points which conflict with your other points. If in the next game, Shadow has the same heroic traits as he did in Sonic06, I propose we relist him under hero tho. That game made him a complete good guy (Aside from kicking Silver's puny little ass, but admittedly, he did it to save Sonic's life). User:Radman622 17:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hyper Shadow

Why is there a continued obsession to change all mentions of Super Shadow to Hyper Shadow? As far as I'm aware, Hyper Shadow is an error a strategy guide made. Is this ignorance, fanboy stubborness, more uneeded one upmanship over Sonic or what?--HellCat86 13:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say one and sometimes more of all of the above depending on the individual, change it back to Super when you see it - as Super has offical source within games (both Sonic and Shadow refer to their forms as 'Super forms' in SA2) Cigraphix 03:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

As a person who used to think it was hyper, and as an avid Shadow fan I can tell you that it is mostly ignorance. Shadow fans are loving every second of it while they think it is hyper thinking "ha! Shadow is hyper and sonic's just super!" But it is not a refusal to believe what Sega has stated. If you know Sega has said it is super, and refuse to agknowledge that just in an effort to add something to the list of why Shadow is better that I know you have in your head somewhere, you need to reconsider your views. I believe it is ignorance. For anyone who is reading this IT IS SUPER SHADOW, NOT HYPER SHADOW, SEGA HAS EVEN STATED SUCH. DREAM ON OR GET OVER IT. Did that satisfy anyone? RADMAN622 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.74.43 (talk) 19:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shadouge

I know (I just know, and I'm telling myself right now that I'm an idiot and a million KnuxRouge fans are going to reem me out) that I should NOT start this argument, but I'm going to anyways. I think I heard recently that an official SEGA strategy guide (Japanesse) for Sonic06 reveals that Rouge has a crush on Shadow and vice versa. The Japanese guides have a habit of revealing stuff which proves to be true games later (Rouge's Ultimate Lifeform report) so what are we supposed to make of this. Also, this seems to be supplemented by the game (ie. Shadow saves rouge from fall over scepter of darkness, rouge pledges to never betray Shadow, helps him in his quest etc. Now what I want is not a thousand people reeming me (although I know that I'm just begging for it, and I repect your views KnuxRouge fans, but this is some research that must be done). I want someone to look into the official SEGA japancese guide for Sonic06, and verfiy or disprove this, whilst a debate (not a yelling contest) occurs here. Both sides have legit evidence, and both sides deserve respect for their views, and I repsect both sides. But what I can't respect is crazed reeming so please don't. Anyhoo, I say that the info (if it even exists) is probably true, but I am hesitant to jump to conclusions until I have more cited research. Could you all give me a hand, or make me put my foot in my mouth. Thanks, and crazed KnuxRouge fans, please don't kill me... (cowers, lol) signed, RADMAN622 No offence but shadouge just makes me AND my 13 friends sick.-Shadowgirl 4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.175.163 ([[User talk:71.10.175.163|talk]]) 00:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC) HAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!I KNEW SHADOUGE WUD ONE DAY RULE THE WORLD HAHAHHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAH!!!!!!!!SOUPYNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!LDGJWERUGIJGIWHWRIIRJKJDJDJSJ srry bout theadsttett SUGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!I!!!!!HAD!!!!!!!!!SUGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!WUPIFFUEUFHKJNDH!!!!(XDsyroswazhereXD (talk) 23:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC))


wtf was that? User:Radman622 16:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Allies...

In the Relationships section, it says that Big the Cat is an ally. Yet I've never seen Shadow and Big work together. Or is it referring to the Metal Madness battle? Cheeze Master 19:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)Cheeze Master

I believe that is what it is refering to Sonic Heroes and the boss battle with Metal Maddness (though I hardly think it signifigant enough for Wikipedia). Remove it if you want, but I don't want a million Big the cat fans (scoffs) wigging out on me (if he even has a million fans, he has more like twelve. Sonic has like two hundred million, and Shadow probably has like twenty five million, and Big has twelve.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.74.43 (talk) 04:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Sonic's Death

Howcome Shadow didn't get upset when Sonic was killed by Mephiles he didn't cry or nonthing he just had his arms crossed and that was it 06:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

(I feel that) Because of his chracter/nature, he wouldn't show upset at the death of a 'Rival', no matter how he feels inside.  Doktor  Wilhelm  15:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Shadow was upset but he kept it inside you know he hides it from others to see 17:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I agree. And I don't like it. Mkrox (talk) 03:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC) (it translates from those four squiggly dash thingies into a signature; at first I thought it wouldn't work)

Simple, Shadow's a jerk. But to be fair, Knuckles nor Silver (hell EVEN TAILS) hardly showed any emotion at his death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neofcon (talk • contribs) 15:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Ex-CUSE me? Shadow is NOT a jerk!! If you think that, then you probably don't know him as well as I do...

Forget what I just said. Looking at this site for so long is making Wikipedia go to my head and I have no idea what I'm talking about. MORTAL KOMBAAAT!!! XD (talk) 01:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shadow the hedgehog's race

For some strange reason I keep being edited. All I've done is changing "black" to "african american" because it could help the user to know more about this hedgehog's heritage and story. I think we must not deny the fact that this hedgehog has an african heritage. I hope you give me permision to edit, or at least explain to me why can't I change black to african american in this article. Jamal Thompson 01:36, 28 october 2007 (UTC)

"African american" is not synonymuos to "black". Absolutely not the colour, and not even the race. To call all all people of colour african-americans is a US POV that is against Wikipedia policy. That's why I asked that you show that he is an american.
In this case, we're talking about a fictious hedgehog on a planet that is not Earth. Unless there are some very clear indications about his race there's no way you can say that he is descended from a continent on another planet. (Added: Also, he was created, not born, i.e. no forefathers.) I also remind you that facts schould be verified. You haven't shown any source for your claims.Sjö 08:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what US POV means, but he is an american as long as I'm concerned, the concept of shadow the hedgehog was born in America. And shadow kind of hedgehogs are only found in Africa [african hedgehogs] and his african heritage was mentioned at some parts in the game. Let me edit sir, let's not convert this into a racial war. Because that wasn't my point. I just wanted to introduce more about the african heritage of this character. Jamal Thompson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.167.10.91 (talk) 08:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Fine with me. (US POV=American point of view, here the tendency to assume that things everywhere are as they are in the US).Sjö 10:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
No that is a big assertion, hedgehogs come from Asia and Europe as well and Shadow's exact hedgehog type has never been mentioned. Also, Shadow's designer, Yuji Uekawa, is a Japanese national, so he could have been conceived in Japan. So its insertion requires an offical source from Sega or Sonic Team to prove it is not speculation, see Wikipedia:Verifiability. Cigraphix 04:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It is a common misconception that simply because Shadow is "black" skinned, that he is "black" as in african american, you know... the race. He is not. He's not even human. He's a hedgehog, he acts like a white person, and if the skin color of characters in Sonic defines their race, what does that make Sonic, Knuckles, Tails, Amy, Silver, and Blaze? I KNOW there ain't a race with blue skin, so I got you there! Radman 18:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[[1]] Perhaps this is what you were referring to, but neither Sega, or any part of it, or Yuji Nake has stated what type of hedeghog Shadow is... Radman 18:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk The shadow the hedgehog game clearly hints that he is from America with common ancestors from Africa. He's african american in conclusion. And "Radman" you're a racist, personality does not define race. I don't know what you mean with acting like a white person, but he's african american, and it saddens me that people don't want to recognize that. P.S. Stop editing Shadow's race!! he's not red, he's african american. Jamal Thompson 03:16, 14 november 2007 (UTC)

UGH! I knew stupid racist stereotypes were going to explode into this. Please stop before more of them are brought up by another ignorant person and somebody becomes really offended. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability there is not enough evidence to say what race or nationality Shadow is. Only an official source directly from Sonic Team or Sega can confirm such a thing (and the Presidential Mansion in Shadow the Hedgehog's game is not enough - it didn't even look like the White House and is confirmed to be the "United Federation" and not the United States). Looking at past Sonic series projects, race and nationality have been essentially a non-issue and not even mentioned (even difference of species - Sonic & Elise went on without even thinking about it). Get a source from Sega or Sonic Team proving Shadow is African American or let it go. Cigraphix 21:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The evidence is right there in the game, at some parts it hints his african origins. So what's next? Are you going to ask me to prove you that Eddy Murphy and Bill Cosby are african americans too? Do I have to get you an interview where they say they are? I can't believe wikipedia is read by racists people like you that don't respect truthiness. Jamal Thompson 07:21, 15 november 2007 (UTC)

I have nothing but respect for the truth. But hedgehogs are also from Europe, Asia, and New Zealand. There is also possiblity Shadow's design was influenced by the tenrec [2] (it has black and red fur, and is called the 'fake hedgehog' - like Sonic's favorite nickname for Shadow when they first met in Sonic Adventure 2). Also we are talking about a cartoon animal, not a human. He comes from a fictional world that has been called both 'Earth' and 'Mobius.' There exists countries that don't exist in real-life Earth like the United Federation. For all we know the continent of Africa doesn't exist here or may be given another name. Despite this, I do agree with you the the POSSIBLITY exists that he could very well be from Africa, but, since other possiblities exist, according to Wikipedia's rules - not mine - there is not enough EVIDENCE to say for sure. You keep saying the evidence is in Shadow's game, then you must be able to give me an exact quote or description of it and where it appears, and it cannot be you speculating that it says something either - it must be blatantly obvious as Wikipedia does not allow for speculation or original research. Cigraphix 19:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Although Shadow's fur is Black im fairly sure his skin is the colour of his muzzle. Just like how Sonic's fur is blue but the skin on his bely and muzzle are a differant colour. Besides, Shadow's race is Balck Arms alien, he wasnt even born on Earth. MindWraith 08:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

But he was born in America and he has african heritage. That means he's african american also. Not because he's not entirely black means he's not african american.Jamal Thompson 05:31, 20 november 2007 (UTC)

Did you read my last post? I asked for specific evidence, as Wikipedia requires under Wikipedia:Verifiability. Shadow is a fictional animal, not human like your examples (Bill Cosby etc), so it cannot be assumed by how he looks to judge where he comes from. In fact, my parents used to own a pet dog, a miniture Schnauzer, who had jet black fur covering his entire body (making his body a greater percentage of black than Shadow). Schnauzers are German dogs, so colors in animals cannot be equated with humans. Not to mention he lives on a world that has been called 'Mobius' in the past, and was born in a lab from alien DNA - making him part extra-terrestrial, or the fact that the United States, the American continent, and the African continent may not even exist in Sonic's world (the US sure doesn't - it's replaced by the 'United Federation' and 'GUN'). Look I am sure you mean good, and I know the importance of respecting one's background and heiritage, but you need to cite specific evidence to prove your claims, just like Wikipedia requires. Cigraphix (talk) 20:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So? Where did I say shadow was black skinned? I said he was african american, because his backgrounds and the hints I found in the game. Not all african americans are black. He's perhaps white, who knows? but one thing is for certain, we must NOT deny his african heritage, sir. Jamal Thompson 06:21, 20 november 2007 (UTC)

I apologize, I misunderstood your response to MindWraith (it made me think you really were thinking more about his color, but before that I always thought that you were refering entirely to where his type of hedgehog was from instead). I'm not out to deny his heritage, but I still have to insist that you describe in detail these hints, as Wikipedia requires it be verified by a reliable (in this case offical) source. Thank you. Cigraphix (talk) 21:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Although I think arguing about animal character's human race laughable, there is a small amount of evidence to support Jamal's claims. If you play Shadow the hedgehog, after the first level you will see a cutscene of a GUN base. In the gun base there is a map which roughly resembles the real Earth, and includes continents which resemble Africa and America. In addition, since the "United Federation" is an obvious parody of the "United States", that classifies him as an American. However, there doesn't seem to even be any proof that he has a heritage (he may just be a trasgenic clone of Doom) much less proof that he came from Africa, (and the fact that the people who are consistently bringing this up cannot be ignored ) except that he has black fur (which very well could have been inherited from Doom. Black Arms, doom's children, red and black, Shadow, doom's child a couple species removed, red and black, see the connection). Jamal, I think in the Sonic games I HAVE seen an african american human, but I doubt if Shadow's ancestry is from Africa. Besides, the reason you need proof for Shadow and not for Bill Cosby is that Shadow is a fictional character, and ultimately only what his creators decide is true about him is true. They can do anything they want with him, and generally if they haven't said something about him, it's not true. Bill Cosby is a real person, with real backgrounds, and is a human, who is widely known to be an african american. This argument is over, and it needed to be over after my first post. User:Radman622 18:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

O_O...........what the hell is wrong with you people!? SHADOW IS A SCIENCE PROJECT! He was created to be a lifeform capable of whippin arse! He HAS no ethnicy whatsoever. Sega did not make their Sonic characters to have nationalities, they made them to make NEW character with interesting powers and abilities! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neofcon (talk • contribs) 15:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. MORTAL KOMBAAAT!!! XD (talk) 01:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Shadow does NOT have a race. Hes not even a natural life form. There is no evidence in shadow the hedgehog saying he has a race other than the black arms(who arent even from earth). 24.187.58.194 (talk) 18:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

O.K, one, Shadow was made in the ARK with Black Doom's blood, therefore not being born on Earth at all, and secondly, on a desciption of a panda, You wouldnt put "A panda has British fur with african-american sploges, so why bother with Shadow? Besides, this claim is just FUNNY! I mean, what is the point about arguing over a fictional charactors race? Vitual aelita (talk) 11:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I know this argument is over but adding facts there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF he is a citizen of the UF.Dr. Spikez (talk) 04:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC) lol!!!!OMFG!!!!!!u guys r fighting over SHADOW (A FICTIONAL HEDGEHOG???)being or not being RACIST???????????LMAO!!!!ROFL!!!!!!!BLANKETS!!!!!!CUCUMBER!!!!!!SNOWCONE!!!!!!!!u might as well say he's against abortion ppl or that he supports George Bush(XDsyroswazhereXD (talk) 23:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC))

"Black" does not always mean African American. It could mean Indian, Jamacain, Aboriginie etc. But in this case it doesn't mean any of those! Whe it says Shadow is "black", it doesn't mean in the sense of how humans are "black" (technically, it should be brown). In the case of shadow the Hedgehog, it actually means his skin is black, not just dark. 58.174.98.29 (talk) 09:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what people are talking about "Shadow's African background". Neither Africa or America exist on Mobius (the planet the story of Sonic is set on). Where exactly does it hint Shadow's "African backgrounds"? He's an alien! He was made from the blood of Black Doom! Lightman2 (talk) 08:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

My neighbour's dog is black, im pretty darn sure they didnt go all the way to south africa to get him.... MindWraith (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

This topic is getting out of control. If anyone adds anymore stupid comments, I will have to delete this topic. The bottom line is this: Shadow is not "black" in the sense of humans because his skin is the actual colour black on the contrary to just being dark, "black" does not always mean "African American", Shadow is not an African American because neither of those countries exist in the world of Sonic video games, Sega has never said anything about Shadow's "African background", and he was made from the blood of Black (not as in "African American") Doom. Lightman2 (talk) 09:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rotten vandels!

Grrrr.... Ladies and Gentlemen can we please help try to stop the vandelism if at all possible... That is all.Wolly da wanderer 02:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC) Can't we semi-lock this page for a little while, just long enough for the vandals to get bored and leave? MindWraith 08:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC) I just got back the Sonic the Hedgehog (comic) section.Fairfieldfencer (talk) 19:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Fairfieldfencer

I think that we should do something. i just reverted about six of Luda06's changes to the Shadow image at the top of the page. That's just ridiculous...Sonicxtreme (talk) 00:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shadow the Hedgehog (comic)

Do you think, we should make the Sonic the Hedgehog (comic) section into an individual article.I mean there does appear to be enough info to start a new article.Fairfieldfencer (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC) Fairfiedfencer

That, or either cut down the amount of info there. There doesn't HAVE to be that much.--Neofcon ([[User talk:Neofcon|talk]]) 13:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I`m not suggesting that, I just think that the Shadow the Hedgehog (comic) section should be a different article. Fairfieldfencer (talk) 13:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Fairfieldfencer

A whole different article all together? I don't think that would work out considering it's describing one character in an entire comic book series which isn't all about him. Plus we'd have to do that for the other characters which is totally unnecessary.--Neofcon (talk) 13:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of other Archie Sonic characters with articles, and besides I`m just suggesting Shadow as he has more info than the all rest, I`m not suggesting we do all of them, just Shadow as he has more info than the others.Fairfieldfencer (talk) 15:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Fairfieldfencer

Archie Sonic characters are different from main one's that starred in multiple media. Shadow's is combined because he appeared on games, comics, and TV. The actual solution would be to cut down info because it's cluttering the article. But making a new article for that little bit of info will get it deleted because I know for a fact some dude will delete it.--Neofcon (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)--Neofcon (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

OK I agree.Fairfieldfencer (talk) 21:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Fairfieldfencer

Infact, ill do that right now..--Neofcon (talk) 21:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism AGAIN!

Yet another case of vandalism, has been made. I shall make an attempt at getting back the original image.Fairfieldfencer (talk) 12:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)Fairfieldfencer

I have reported Luda06 to the administrators and hopefully they will accept my pleas. Sonicxtreme (talk) 00:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What image. I've never seen it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.97.140 (talk) 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] i'm gonna crush him

the guy who put up the stupid picture of shadow is really gonna get it >:(

Maybe instead of complaining about it you could reach for the undo button and reverse it... as I just did. --Zikar (talk) 12:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

hmmph wiseguy.--99.241.156.180 (talk) 22:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Our image policy

Isn't our image policy on Sonic games "use the most recent, game art which is accurate to the character" in general? Then why the hell is the Sonic Rivals Pic still up on this article? I propose replacing it with some official Rivals 2 Shadow artwork. Anyone in favor of the movement, in possession of the neccesary art or willing to make the change? User:Radman622 02:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe they can't find it.--Neofcon (talk) 03:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I saw one, but it looked kinda small maybe some techno wizard can make it look bigger, its on a site called Sonic Art Archive, I would do it myself but I don't know how.Fairfieldfencer (talk) 11:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)Fairfieldfencer

[edit] Neo Ap Theories

Although they just clog up main pages, theories on Shadow, Sonic in general, and TLoZ are welcome on Neon Apocalypse's talk page.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm. Huh?

What's so confusing about that? If you have a theory post it on my talk page. Geez!--24.137.74.235 (talk) 15:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Neon Apocalypse

[edit] Fictional swordsmen?

I don't think Shadow qualifies as a "Fictional Swordsman" (in categories). The only time he used a sword (to my knowledge) is in Shadow the Hedgehog, where you could pick up a sword and use it. He doesn't use them otherwise...of course I may be wrong. --Shrapnelwolf (talk) 06:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

No, you're kinda correct. Since he used it, he fits in that catergory.SLJCOAAATR 1 (talk) 01:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Just because he can swing around a street sign, doesnt really make him a swordsman. MindWraith (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

If it did, bassically everyone'd be a swordsman thenSLJCOAAATR 1 (talk) 22:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the ability to swing around a sword makes everyone with arms a swordsman. Obviously then, since in Super Smash Bros he can use the beam sword, Mario is also a fictional swordsman. Yea.... I think not. User:Radman622 17:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Shadow in Brawl

Hey, I've been hearing this and I wanna know, is this really legit? Thanx. 76.105.204.255 (talk) 18:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. He's an AT. He causes Chaos Control to your enemies. ;)SLJCOAAATR 1 (talk) 22:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to clear something up for those reading this who don't know what he (or she) means by AT, he means assist trophy. 58.174.98.29 (talk) 09:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure nobody cares about that, and feels betrayed by Nintendo and Sega for taking a crap on Shadow once again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I care do. Alot of ppl do. Shadow's the 2nd most popular character.SLJCOAAATR 1 (talk) 00:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yea, 2nd most popular char... woo. And he get's an AT. Who gives a shit if you're not able to PLAY AS HIM. He might as well not be in Brawl at all. User:Radman622 19:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:VG Assessment

Hi there, I'm here from WP:VG/A. Summarising the below, I would recommend to rewrite this whole article and model it after a good article on a fictional character like Superman. Currently, this article is close to rubbish, because of the problems below. Apologies if this sounds really negative, but signalling problems is important to write quality articles.

  1. This article suffers from in-universe style, starting with the second paragraph of the lead, and then throughout the article. See WP:WAF, and my own tips on how to fix this.
  2. The prose is not very good in general, with many repetitive sentences, and almost no 'flow' to speak of. See for example the first word of the last five paragraphs in "Game appearances".
  • Referencing. There is a lack of reliable, third party references in the article, which makes it almost impossible to write anything but plot summaries. Some of the references present are not formatted correctly. References to primary sources (games, comics) are mostly absent too.
  • Structure. The whole "interaction with other characters" section is irrelevant to most readers.

Rating unchanged. User:Krator (t c) 11:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chaos Control extent?

In the "Abtilies" section, near the end of the second paragraph, you can read: "It is currently unknown as to what extent Chaos Control can be used, as Shadow has never been seen using it on another object without warping himself along with it, but it has been shown that he can take objects and people into the warp with him, and all examples of this suggest he must be touching to object to bring it with him (such as transporting the Black Comet off Earth)."

Pretty nice, but in the end of Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow warps the entire ARK to Earth's orbit without touching it, and without warping himself. True, he was in his super form, and he had Super Sonic's help, but still... Now I never played Shadow the Hedgehog (game) or Sonic the Hedgehog '06, so I don't know how he warped the Black Comet off Earth and I don't really know how to rewrite this. Ecco TheDolphin (talk) 23:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Ecco TheDolphin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecco TheDolphin (talk • contribs) 23:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, he did warp with it, he just then fell from it. Also, one could assume that the energy of two super forms is sufficent to warp something without physical contact. Maybe this sentance would be better off in the Chaos Control article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Shadow, being the Ultimate Lifeform, is possibly the perfect creature. This includes Chaos Control, where he has so much power, he doesn't even need a Chaos Emerald to use some abilities, such as Chaos Spear and a few Short Distance Warpings. So there is no telling how far he can go with Chaos Control. Maybe he can even travel in the past if he has all 7 or possibly even less. (NOT A DIRECT QUOTE) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Game shaman (talk • contribs) 22:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shadow The "Hedgehog"?

Why is he referred to as a Hedgehog When in the game he is part Black Arm and therefore a totally unique lifeform since Gerald combined Hedgehog DNA with Black Arm DNA inorder to create him? Does anyone else find this odd? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.160.80 (talk) 00:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps he is a mix of the Black Arms DNA and a hedgehogs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurowoofwoof111 (talk • contribs) 01:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Because Sega calls him that, and whatever they say goes, as he is their property, end of story. User:Radman622 19:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Please remember that this is not a forum, this is a place to discuss the article. Lightman2 (talk) 09:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shadow's speed

While it is well known that Shadow is fast, I wonder if he is naturally fast and the jets on is shoes are used to reduce friction, or is he using the jets as an unnatural speed enhancer.[^ Shadow's bio from Shadow the Hedgehog (game) manual: Shadow can "rival Sonic's world class speed." ] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Game shaman (talk • contribs) 22:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately no offical source has ever answered that. At this point it's fan speculation not worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article. Cigraphix (talk) 00:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History and Game apperances

These two sections tell the exact same story (the entire history of shadow from Sonic Adventure 2 up until the 2006 Sonic the Hedgehog game) twice. One section might mention a few details that the other one dont, but thats no excuse to have both remain in the article. Instead the two must be merged. I will wait, oh, lets say, two days to see if someone else wants do it (cause frankly, i really dont feel like doing it myself) but if nobody has made the move by then i will have no choice but to do it myself. Rattis1 (talk) 20:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that the person who's against this point out the important details so they can be merged and not deleted.Fairfieldfencer FFF 20:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, either that, or he can merge the sections himself as he sees fit.Rattis1 (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
There, i merged the sections myself since nobody else did it. I used the information from the (longer and more informative) "history"-section as the description of all games between SA2 and Sonic06, and for the rest of the games i used the descriptions from the "game apperances-section" (naturaly, since those games were not mentioned in the "history"-section).

Rattis1 (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Immortal and where this came from...

I have no clue where everyone got the idea Shadow is immortal. I havent played SA2 or Shadow the Hedgehog in awhile so I either forgot or I'm simply out of the loop. So can someone gimme a reference please?--SxeFluff (talk) 03:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It was properly referenced from Sega of America's Sonic Central before someone deleted it: http://www2.sega.com/sonic//globalsonic/post_allabout.php?article=soniccharacters (can't link directly because it's flash, go into Shadow's profile) - it says "...known only to the Professor. Ageless and immortal. Shadow has the special ability..." It is also mentioned in other profiles such as the Sonic 2006 website (http://www2.sega.com/gamesite/sonicnext/sonicnext_full/index.php go to Story > Characters > Shadow's character; it says "his body doesn't age and he can't be killed.") Cigraphix (talk) 05:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)