Talk:Shadow people/Archives0

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[edit] Theories

[edit] Limited Spectrum

I saw these things a lot as a kid - cloudy yet distinct figures that are visible when your night-vision kicks in - but vision becomes worse with age and we tend to see less of the spectrum than kids do. The cornea becomes clouded and the lens warps with time - you'd notice the difference if you looked through the eyes you had 10 years ago. I've had two major eye surgeries - one on each eye - and I saw fewer of these shadow things as my vision deteriorated. If the shadow things could be passed off as a visual error, I'd see them all over the place right now.

But that's circumstantial. The fact is: We don't see much of the light around us - [1] - there are surfaces that reflect/absorb little or none of the photons in our spectrum, meaning we see directly through things. Opacity varies according to your visible spectrum. For example, if our eyes could only see the ultraviolet spectrum, glass would be opaque and we'd see forms of gas in the air that were invisible before. If we only saw the infrared spectrum, more objects would look transparent, because the further down the spectrum you go, the more transparent things get, and vice-versa. So, we know there are things we can barely see, and it's possible that some of these things are organisms.

Then there's the retina perceiving the light. The center of our eyesight mostly uses cone cells, which perceive colors, while the perimeter of our eyesight has more rod cells, which perceive black, white and motion - it's better at catching certain subtleties and seeing things you have trouble spotting up-front. Retinas also change from person to person - some see more, some see less, and some just see different areas of the spectrum. Some people have mutations or alterations that drastically change what they see. My left eye, for example, had the lens removed in an operation, and now it can view the lower ultraviolet spectrum uninhibited. Other people who eat more greens can see more of the IR spectrum, and many animals have the tapetum lucidum along their retinas, giving a great boost in IR sensitivity.

So, depending age, condition and genetics, a person can spot certain objects and creatures better than others will, and different areas of the eye will also make a difference. These things make sense when you look for the facts instead of calling every strange phenomenon a paranormal hallucination hoax and whatnot. I can't say what these things are made of that gives them these intriguing properties but I can touch on why they're hard to see. --Zareste 03:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)(edited)

Okay, saying that someone is a nihilist and has marred an article can kind of be taken as a personal attack. Let's not be doing that. I would like to see specifically (in context) what changes were made and why you judge them to be innapropriate. ScifiterX 02:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
And you have this headed under theory, but I don't see a clear hypothesis stated. It seems like your idea is that many children may have ability to see into the portion of the spectrum of light that is not visible to adults, as the eyes of adults have degraded. And I'm assuming that you are suggesting that if this phenomena is more visible (or only visible) in the infra-red or ultra-violet portion of the spectrum, it could explain why most people don't see the phenomena or why the apearance of the phenomena is typically so fleeting. ScifiterX 03:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The theory was badly written the first time - I didn't revise it for comprehensibility. It's fixed now and should make more sense.--Zareste 03:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting.ScifiterX 03:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Kids have more imagination than adults, and are more likely to twist a half seen image into something tangible, whereas us boring adults are more likely to shrug off a half seen image as a trick of the light.

perfectblue 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crystal Meth Connection?

Crystal meth users often talk about seeing shadow people after multi-day binges, so I think that sleep deprivation should be listed under "non-paranormal explanations". 24.19.19.215 [2] [3]

Not to bash your theory or anything, but wouldn't people have to be sleep-deprived to get sleep-deprivation hallucinations? That can explain maybe 20% of the sightings but leaves the rest to interpretation. 24.8.155.203 21:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your posts. And to answer your question: No, a person on narcotics does not have to be sleep deprived to hallucinate. Many narcotics cause hallucinations without sleep deprivation. ScifiterX 02:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
That's neat but now the person has to be on drugs to suit your ideas. That explains another 5%. 24.8.155.203 20:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Please note that 24.8.155.203 first appeared on this site on the 8th or February 2006 and has contributed to Wikipedia in no place other than this discussion page as of the time of this post. This person does not sign his posts and is not logged in when he is making his comments. ScifiterX 03:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

This page is not about drug induced hallucinations. However, a brief and carefully worded addition was made noting your suggetion. ScifiterX 19:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

I've been debating whether or not to add the multiple forms and their extended descriptions on this page as it is lacking. I noticed the page explains stages one and three of the shadows, but not two or the final stage. In any case, I am amazed that I am not insane seeing as how others have seen them.

Some one tried to ruin the article, I removed the mocking commantary they placed within the article. DaBiggman 21:35, 14 January 2006

He was referring to a sentence added that was vandalism. Jack-ass was a correct usage. 69.21.182.41 02:08, 2 February 2006

Regardless, of the vandalism it is not a good idea to stoop to name calling. Your object is to get people on your side, not the vandal's. When you swear at the individual you are in disagreement with, it makes it appear to people that you are the one causing the problem. ScifiterX 06:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

All though I can certainly appreciate your enthusiasm for this site and your apparent disapproval of vandalism, such language is not appropriate and can be construed as a personal attack. I am sure that is an impression you don't want to make. ScifiterX 18:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Fixed it, there. Vandals in the future will not be treated with kid gloves. If someone wants to ruin the article by adding mocking commentary, I do not see why I would want them on my side. If they do not wish to help the article but instead wish to destroy it, they should not be catered too.--DaBiggman 10:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References?!

This article still needs specific references, rather than simply a list of related links. Seems like all the information in the article exists elsewhere, so why not reference it? Russell 00:49, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historical references?

Where are references to these objects having been observed for centuries? That was promised at the start of the article but there are no details further down.

Dabiggman seems to indicate that some documents in the Vatican reference a similar phenomena but as yet he has not provided any details. Perhaps he will get around to it the next few weeks and well will have some reference to historical documenation at that point.ScifiterX 19:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if I will be able to send you a copy, ha. However, there is a book at the Vatican Secret Archives that does detail what they call "Shadows" very explicitly. A relative of mine is Roman Catholic and translated a single chapter of the "Book of Shadows" for me. I believe the book is currently held in the public section of the library, but you must be a catholic in order to obtain the writings and I am not a catholics. http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm That is the link, not sure if you can actually access the texts though. Dabiggman

Actually, since you are the person who suggested it as a source, you are the person we would expect to find the source. If it cannot be accessed it is irrelevant unfortunately. ScifiterX 03:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concern over references for non-paranormal explanation section

I removed the following from the article:

  • Scientists have proven that under the right conditions erratic electromagnetic field behavior can interfere with the electrical impulses or firing synapses of the human mind, thus influencing people subjected to such environments over time to believe that they are hearing or seeing ghosts, aliens, or perhaps shadow people. Such environments include old buildings with substandard wiring, power plants, and areas with naturally occurring strong magnetic fields.

This seems a lot like crank science to me... Can anyone produce a reference for this? Thanks, Andrew Morritt 02:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

  • "Some of the recent research suggests that EM behavioral effects include changes in perception (visual and auditory), circadian rhythms and other biological 'clocks', reaction time and reflexes, and orientation/navigation ability in animals. Some report feelings of disorientation, nerve paralysis (note carefully... this occurs in conjunction with UFO reports), and discomfort"--Dr. Steve Mizrachs ScifiterX 19:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that you took the time to look for substantiation, and yet you had the time to delete the material. Just google "electromagnetic impulses cause hallucinations" and you will get a many hits. See below for my results.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=electromagnetic+fields+cause+hallucinations&btnG=Google+Search http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/superspectrum.html http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/

"Some of the recent research suggests that EM behavioral effects include changes in perception (visual and auditory), circadian rhythms and other biological 'clocks', reaction time and reflexes, and orientation/navigation ability in animals. Some report feelings of disorientation, nerve paralysis (note carefully... this occurs in conjunction with UFO reports), and discomfort"--Dr. Steve Mizrachs

This is not crank science. The basis is fairly obviously not based on fantasy. The human mind is essentially an organic computer with dendrites and other neural structures acting as circuits, which can be disrupted just as any other circuits can, under the right circumstances. Are you questioning that the brain has electrical impulses? Why would you think that the study of prolonged exposure to electromagnetic impulses on the brain would be crank science? That doesn't make any sense.

I saw a program on the discovery channel that used science to explain psuedo-paranormal phenomena and a scientist did prove under controlled laboratory conditions that electromagnetic pulses can cause people to hallucinate. Actual test were conducted proving this. ScifiterX 20:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like one of those tests where the researchers had the conclusion long before the study. The type you already have to believe in to consider it valid. 24.8.155.203 21:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Whoever you are, please sign your posts. The studies I spoke of followed standard scientific method which focuses on testing a hypothesis, not substatiating an absolute as you suggest. Limit your speculation to what you can prove and try not to stoop to blatant antagonism. When you behave that way (in addition to your constant posting without signing your posts) it takes much of your credibility away in the eyes of other contributers. ScifiterX 03:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Please note that 24.8.155.203 first appeared on this site on the 8th or February 2006 and has contributed to Wikipedia in no place other than this discussion page as of the time of this post. This person does not sign his posts and is not logged in when he is making his comments. ScifiterX 03:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References to substantiate section in question

- This is unnaceptable of Wikipedia standards. If you have proof, show it, otherwise your addition will be deleted just as you have been mass deleting other additions made by just as legitimit sources such as your own.DaBiggman (69.21.182.41) 04:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/superspectrum.html http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/

"Some of the recent research suggests that EM behavioral effects include changes in perception (visual and auditory), circadian rhythms and other biological 'clocks', reaction time and reflexes, and orientation/navigation ability in animals. Some report feelings of disorientation, nerve paralysis (note carefully... this occurs in conjunction with UFO reports), and discomfort"--Dr. Steve Mizrachs

First, I just provided a link to material substantiating the material in question. Second, I have not been mass deleting additions. I have been complying with Wikipedia guidelines and removing material that is POV. If you have a problem feel free to talk to me on my user talk page. I have no fued with you and am only acting in the best interest of the article. ScifiterX 10:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Look, the two of you need to just come to some form of agreement. From the looks of it, ScifiterX you should be sticking to your comic books and not ruio a good article as this. DaBiggman, you should find sources for your additions. Although I know what I have seen and heard from different sources, none of what I know has ever been documented, just like thousands of others. Seriously, you are ruining a great article because one of you cannot stand the thought that these creatures havent been fully documented(DUH!) and the other one cannot stand the thought of someone asking for references...although there arn't any because they are FREAKING SUPERNATURAL! 69.95.53.28 (Unverified IP Address 11:39, 30 January 2006

Please note that the above comment was left by a user who has no other involvement with or contributions to Wikipedia other than that statement. A compromise was reached days ago. You have no authority to dictate what articles Wikipedians can and cannot contribute to. Until you have an actual user name and a static IP address, you aren't going to be taken very seriously on here and your motives will be held in suspicion. It would also be best if you signed your posts instead of leaving them anonymous. Also the reason that certain additons were removed had nothing to do with references, it had to do with the information not being related to the section (perceived religious significance does not belong in eye witness reports), some of the statments were redundant, and some of the statments were POV. ScifiterX 04:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV vs NPOV

No agreement was ever reached if you read my talk page. After reading yours, it appears you had numerous occasions of taking articles you don't think are "correct" and making them yours and if people want to go back, you report them for vandalism. Seriously, leave this article alone. It was fine for a month until you came and started mass deletions. Yes, I do have trouble finding sources for my information because it is a supernatural occurance and it is somewhat hard to find exact terms and pictures for every little thing a Shadow does.--DaBiggman 10:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This accusation (that I have been making mass deletions and falsely reporting other users) is entirely false and borders on slander. I attempted to make a compromise with you. The additions you made were clearly against wikipedia regulations as they were POV. I commended you on your writing and encouraged it. However, you must remain within wikipedia guidelines or the material you add will be deleted, if not by me than by others. Incidentally, if you break a rule (deliberately or not) and add material that is POV and another user or users removes it for that reason, whether you are in agreement with said Wikipedian(s) or not is immaterial. ScifiterX 16:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] REMOVAL OF REDUNDANT AND POV TEXT

I removed the following from the article (paranormal explanations):

A third theory exists however, that shadow people can succumb to a third form. This form, offen seen with red eyes, also bears three claws instead of hands. There have been numerous reports of attacks from these such forms, often times with victims left with three clawlike marks that have been burned into the flesh. This is often referred to as being called "The Mark of the Shadow." This has also been highly speculated as having deep religious impact.

Most of the material more appropriately belongs in the first paragraph. As such the paragraph was removed and the NPOV details were worked into the first paragraph of the para-normal explanation section where they where more fitting and concise. Other details which were POV were removed. The wording concerning religious impact is not objectively phrased, but was reworked into a new paragraph focusing on demonic manifestation.

If someone saw a bigfoot that breathed fire and added in the bigfoot article that bigfoot was known to breathe fire, it would be removed because it isn't substantiated by the vast majority of eye-witness accounts. I removed certain comments from this section for that reason.

The majority of the literature about this phenomena (websites and a few books) simply does not substantiate:

  • 1) "Mark of the Shadow People" Just because someone reading the article calls it that, doesn't mean that its a reknown term associated with the phenomena. In fact, I googled "Mark of the Shadow" and this article was all that came up for the term. I've read several books and websites about shadow people and "the Mark of the Shadow People" and "claws" are never mentioned and need to be left out. Its enough to say that attacks have been reported.
  • 2) Highly speculated to have deep religious impact? Yes, some people think these things are demons and that is described under paranormal explanations. It doesn't belong in eye witness accounts as a basis for credibility. Eye witnees accounts refers to the eye witness reports, not the religious impact of said reports after the fact.

Additions based on personal conjecture damage the credibility of the article. It has already been deleted from Wikipedia once and I would rather it didnt' get deleted again but if people keep adding such spurious conjectures, guess what will happen? ScifiterX 19:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

That was not a threat on my part to delete the article, it was was an attempt to persuade people from turning the article into something that will make it a target for deletion. It (or a very similar article) actually was deleted a few years ago. This is actually something I am trying to protect the article from. ScifiterX 10:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DaBiggman

[edit] REMOVAL OF POV MATERIAL AS PER WIKIPEDIA REGULATION

  • Or how about the simple fact that this entire article has zero credibility due to the simple fact that their is no recorded evidence. Deleting articles that people add based on their own experiances shows such foolish ignorance and it will not be tolerated. DaBiggman 04:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
  • 1) You are wrong, the article has credibility on the grounds that it is a phenomena, much the same as UFO's and Bigfoot. The scientific credibility on a stricly natural/physical basis is not a factor. The sociological and psychological significance of it, even as just a set of hoaxes, gives it credibility as an actual phenomena that can be described.
  • 2) Actually what you are describing (adding your personal experiences to encylopedia articles) is against wikipedia regulations. Articles are written based on Non Point of View standards. What you are describing is your own personal opinion completely unsubstantiated from any other source of literature or statistic data. Your additions do not fit with what is included in the description of this phenomena. Please look into Wikipedia guidelines before changing the article again. ScifiterX 10:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNTS / OBSERVATIONS

All of your personal personal experiences are fascinating and you should find an outlet for describing them to others, but that outlet is not necessarily on encyclopedia entries. For the time being, feel free to add your eye witness accounts here. Perhaps, some of the users should take up creative writing and publish a novel about the phenomena. ScifiterX 11:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I have seen Shadow people all my life and before I was born

When I was about to be born, my mother had a feeling that i was going to be in danger, when I was finaly born, that day and after she saw shadow poeple or felt shadow poeple in my room.( she never told me this until recently). As I grew up about the age of 6-7 i remember seeing a shadow man dressed like a monk holding a book open and reading it, I would alwasy see him in my doorway every night some times just the profile of the man and the other times he was at the foot of my bed looking at me with red eyes. As i grew older I simply acepted this and experienced a wide range of paranormal activity, now that I am fully grown is still feel it, and see it, but we have grown together so I have no fear of it.

Its odd but It has never hurt me, on the contrary it has kept me from geting killed several times in accidents. 66.171.207.40 22:28, 15 January 2006

[edit] Eyewitness

I've saw one particular Shadow Person a number of times. It was following me. Right before I would engage in a conversation with a person, I'd see a shadow person thing walk very quickly out of the corner of my eye and then right into the person I was about to talk to. I got the impression I was speaking to the shadow person that went into that person and not the person him/herself. This only happened for a few days back in 2000. It was pretty creepy. Friendlyliz 03:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eyewitness notes multiple forms

I've been debating whether or not to add the multiple forms and their extended descriptions on this page as it is lacking. I noticed the page explains stages one and three of the shadows, but not two or the final stage. In any case, I am amazed that I am not insane seeing as how others have seen them. DaBiggman 21:35, 14 January 2006 (this was copied from his post earlier and added to this section as it seems to suggest that he himself is an eye-witness. If he feels this has been miscontrued he can delete it.)

[edit] Minor Edit

I removed the Necronomicon link. First of all, I wouldn’t classify a fictional book as being a phenomenon. Secondly, the link is dead, being that the article falls under Necronomicon not the Necronomicon. This whole article needs a good revision. --TheReverendDoom 20:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Observation

Is it just me, or are the "non-paranormal explanations" all implying that the phenomenon could not be anything else than a product of the viewer's imagination? Seems rather POV-oriented to me. Some more research on the matter might provide some interesting information. Dali 05:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. However, I have heard some physicist friends of mine going on about M Theory (membrane theory) and how perhaps overlapping universes (membranes) might explain the phenomenon. If I can find any serious sources on this, I'll put them here and maybe we can fit them into the article.Lisapollison 18:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Please excuse me for saying this, but aren't creatures from another dimension distinctly 'paranormal' in nature?

perfectblue 12:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

True, but it is a non-spiritual paranormal explanation. :) ---J.S (t|c) 16:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually no, they wouldn't be from another dimension but from another Universe, according to advanced theoretical membrane theory. They also might not have to be creatures - could be other people. Think of our universe as a sheet of bubble wrap and their universe as another sheet of bubble wrap superimposed upon ours (I swear I didn't make this up, it's the analogy some physicist dude used on the Discovery Science Channel on a show about parallel universes). What if the bubbles bump into eachother and temporarily overlap, occupying the same time-space? Technically they wouldn't be from another dimension - just another universe. I agree that it's wacky but it's an idea being batted around. That fellow also suggested this is how the Big Bang happened - bubble wrap smashing into other sheets of bubble wrap. I'll try and get some actual references on this. It's an extreme application of String theory. If M theory and string theory make your brain hurt, you're not alone. ;-) it's perhaps the only non-paranormal explanation I've heard that doesn't involve time travel. of course, it's just as far out as time travel, no? I promise to search and see if I can find a good cite in plain english that goes into this in a way that is applicable to the topic. Wish me luck! Lisapollison 05:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The principle that I heard says that you would need around 11 dimensions in order to rationalize the current understanding of higher physics. Now, I took pure science to a moderate level and am a grad in one of its branches, but I swear that physists are attempting to rationalize their own inability to understand the universe mathemetically by comming up with things such as this.

I'm afraid that I am universal bubble wrap in the draw with my John Keal books and that new age pyramid which was supposed to stop my fruit from going moldy.

perfectblue 07:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Useful?

http://www.visionaryliving.com/articles/shadownoitce.html

This lady apparently does investigations into hunting's and is collecting info on shadow people. She was interviewed on coast-to-coast June 13th, 2006. Her website doesnt seem to have any useful info on it, but perhaps we should check back latter? ---J.S (t|c) 16:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Generally, it's best to avoid sources like this. Usually what they say has already been said by people who are more notable and better qualified, in which case its best to quote form those people as they lend more credibility to the entry.
Still, if she's researching the issue she might come up with the names of a few acedemics or books that could prove to be usefull. Generally, first hand experiences from witnesses aren't considered good enough under WP:RS (which can be a real pain sometimes), they need an expert to look at them first and come to a conclusion or extrapolate some statistics which can then be put in an article.
perfectblue 17:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Opps, just went to her home page, it looks like she has been busy in other areas, she might prove usefull in the future.

perfectblue 17:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I seen one

It was a early morning i was waking up.in the dream i caught some spherical being which was human in the dream and it jumped out of my bed into the ceiling(not up but to direction of the door).I was quite frightened to move.looked like 20cm diameter octopus like being.

[edit] Scientific/Religious Unified Possiblities

My idea of this phenomona, which some call "spiritual", is that "demons" may be the culprits. The only way this can work is if we apply a bit of Supersting Theory. The part of String Theory that I am using is the idea that there are mutiple dimensions (dimensions of space). If it is true, and if the idea that God created everything, then it is quite possible that Angels and Demons/Fallen Angels were created in a different (spacial) dimension. That would explain some of the "supernatural" phenomona caused by these beings. The other idea is that these beings may be made of (or interchange between) Dark Matter/Energy and or some Neutrino based property (not quite sure how Neutrinos could compose them). The reason for the possiblity of Neutrinos was that Neutrinos (or Neutrino based particles) could "phase" through several trillion miles of led without it's velocity decreasing. If they are made of different substances or subdimensions, then that could explain how these "shadow" beings or Demons could do some of the "impossible" things they seem to be able to do. The only way they could interact wityh matter is if they had some sort of mass, or have the ability to interchange between matter and energy, or they could be able to manipulate zero-point energy fields, or something of the sort.

If there is some addition to this idea or if I have made a contradiction within myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Issac Kliner (talk • contribs) 17:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC).