Talk:Shadow of the Colossus/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Special Edtion 2 Video Game Article Guidelines 3 Title 4 Redundant information in Story and Characters sections 5 Ending 6 Soundtrack 7 Idols 8 Insight 9 Colossi names 10 Featured Article? 11 Connections to ICO

Special Edtion

Is it true that there is a special edition of Shadow of the Colossus in the making? From what I've heard there are lots of additional content, including new Colossus battles.

No special editions to the actual game I heard. But in Europe there is going to be a bonus DVD with trailers and the NICO opening (see article). -- Psi edit 01:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Video Game Article Guidelines

Anyone making edits to this article (especially extensive ones) should read Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games first. That pages lays down guidelines against usages that have or continue to occur often on this page. Mainly this would be the use of the word "you" (as referring to the reader) instead of what should be "the player", "the character" or "Wander".--Daveswagon 05:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Title

Is the Japanese title still transalted as Wanderer and the Colossus? I believe both Japanese and English title were changed to Shadow of, no? Can anyone confirm the Japanese title from the japanese homepage?

I just picked up the Japanese edition of the game this weekend. The official Japanese title remains ワンダと巨像 (Wanda to Kyozō), but interestingly, the title "Wander and the Colossus" appears in plain English on the front of the players manual. Druff 19:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Tani unit 01:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Shadow of the Colossus is only the American name. The original title, "Wanda to Kyozo" translates into "Wanda and the Colossus", or "Wander and the big statue".

More often than not, the japanese use plays on words with some of their names. Take into consideration Bulma from Dragonball. It was originally translated at Bloomer, but because of the fact that the japanese language is based on phonetics, the name changed in during the translation.

In regards to Colossus, I believe "Wanda" is the name of the maided that the hero is trying to save, and that we never truely learn the hero's name. I think this makes sense because the title focuses on the two main driving forces in the game, that being the maiden that you are trying to save, and the various colossi that you have to slay in order to do so.

--David225 14:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)david225

All of the speculation and ambigutity regarding the character names has been dispelled now that the game is released. There are character names listed in the credits section of the manual as well as the ending credits of the game. The hero's name is Wander. The girl's name is Mono. Druff 17:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

L4zyL30 08:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the Japanese don't have an 'R' character by itself, so they usually make it sound as close as they can to what it would sound like. So I think that's why it's Wanda to Kyozo, instead of Wander to Kyozo.

Redundant information in Story and Characters sections

Anyone esle thinks that the repetition of the story elements through out both the Story section and the Characters section is a bit clumsy and redundant? I think that the information about the story should be kept to the Story section, and story elemnts should be removed from the Characters section. Yay or Nay? Tani unit 22:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

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Yeah, there are a whole buch of redundancies to work out here. Glad to see others working on this article! The Colossi are now in a table, by the way, because it was really messy before... Onlynameicanget 22:36, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I am also glad that people are working on this article. Im sad that there isnt much more to add (I wanted to complete the game before I worked on the entry). Psi edit

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I rewrote some and spliced some to get rid of redundancy, moving all the repeating story elements from the Characters section into the Story section, and added a Gameplay trivia section for, well gameplay stuff like controlling Dormin. Hope you guys dig. Tani unit 03:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Ending

When Wander turns into the Dormin incarnate is it really impossible to beat Emon? I mean I failed at it but I thought that it was wierd that if they gave you that chance to play as him wouldnt it make sense to change the ending by beating Emon. -- Psi edit

One of the guys from the company when answering questions on the forum (listed on the bottom under Sources) has confirmed that there is no alternate ending, and that you can't do anything to avoid being turned into Dormin or sucked into the pool. I gues it's just made to make you feel more helpless, and not to feel disconnected from the experience during the ending. Tani unit 02:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes I know now. Also a magazine questioned Fumito Ueda (the creator) about this, he stated that he wanted it to be clear that it would have been possible for something else to have happened, by letting the player control. -- Psi edit

The part where you get to play as Dormin really dissappointed me, it would've been quite fun to fight the colossus as a colossus yourself or change the ending. The ending itself was one of the best i've ever seen in a game, sort of like a dark and melancholic fairy tale. I'd like to request the soundtrack name and the list of all the songs if its not too much trouble, i really enjoyed its haunting score. ~Neph

Very..... very much agreed. The game (as many say) is a representation of the video game art form. I found a list of the games tracks earlier, Ill add it in when I can find the translation of the list. --Psi edit

Soundtrack

Can anyone add any information on the games soundtrack? I'm sort of confused as to what's going on with its release. I know it came out in Japan on December 7th, but does anyone know if it's going to be released in America as well, and if so, when?

• I've added a Soundtrack section. No U.S. release planned so far (shame!). - Onlynameicanget 00:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Update: I've also started an article for Kow Otani. Can't believe he didn't have one before, but oh well. Let the editing begin... - Onlynameicanget 03:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• anyone cares to link the track names to specific instances when the music is played? the tracks seem to be assigned to specific locations, fights, and cinematics, so such information would be fairly helpful Tani unit 17:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You can listen to clips of the music here (l cant because my computer at the moment cant play Window media player files). -- Psi edit

Idols

one thing i still don't get is what the idols have to do with anything? dormin's essence seems to be seled in colossi, not idols. you slay the colossi, and release the essence. why does the game state that you need to destroy the idols, and why do they get destroyed when the colossi are slayed? any theories on that? Tani unit 18:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Template:Spoiler My theory? The Dormin created the idols to leave behind figures of what they made (the Colossi). The their power was sealed away by the ancestors of Wanders people because his people believed it was sacrilage to create an animal of your own (like playing god). Their power was sealed away, but some of their power was kept in their Colossi. When Wander came they set him a task to destroy the idols through the Colossi to make it seem ritualistic to revive Mono (and he does keep his word after he is reawakened). What do you think? -- Psi edit

hmm, not so sure. i was under impression that both the shrine and the colossi were made by whoever sealed dormin away. i always thought of colossi as constructs, golems if you will, made out pieces of arhcitecture and landscape and "programmed" to defend themslves in the event someone decides to slay them in order to unseal dormin. so it would seem idols and colossi are connected somehow, but it would make moresence to me if the colossus died after destroying the idol, not the other way around. your theory is an interesting take on it though, i'll have to give it some thought Tani unit 02:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

hmm, not so sure. i was under impression that both the shrine and the colossi were made by whoever sealed dormin away. Oh I see, well it did serve that function to Emon didnt it? I dont believe this entirely but I do think that the fact that the Dormin were sealed away by the pool of the shrine is interesting. But the Colossi not being made by the Dormin doesnt fit with me for some reason.

made out pieces of arhcitecture and landscape It is quite easy to assume that they are made of land I agree with this partly aswell.

"programmed" to defend themslves in the event someone decides to slay them in order to unseal dormin. I only agree a little with this part. But I think the Colossi are both animalistic and sentient (their appearances also seem to imply this as their face is mostly of animal and the humanoid colossi use weapons sometime). I thought that the Dormin had complete control over the Colossi until they were sealed.

so it would seem idols and colossi are connected somehow, but it would make more sense to me if the colossus died after destroying the idol, not the other way around. Why do you think that? It kind of takes away the ferocity of the Colossi. -- Psi edit

as far as the shrine and the whole land deal goes, i assumed that dormin was imprisoned there, and the shrine was built after the colossi were made. picture this; at the shrine, magic is used to make the idol, and the colossi coresponding to the idol is created of the land at the same time (that would explain their similarity to surrounnding architecture). upon which parts of dormins's essence is sealed away into colossi. that would also explain dormin saying that people have separated him into parts and sealed them away. as far as colossi's sentience - i think it would be consistent with the sentience of a golem.

now about the idols - it would make sence for colossi to die once idol is destroyed because colossi's essence could be in the idol or something like that so destroying the idol would effectively destroy the colossi. but it happens the other way around. come to think of it, that would reinforce my theory about idols being magically created and correspoding colossi being congealed at the same time from surrounding land. so once the colossi is destroyed, magic on their side is broken, hence the idol is destroyed. what do you think? Tani unit 04:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the theory about the idol's breaking but earlier you said that the idols should break to make the Colossi die. I think whats keeping me from thinking about the shrine being made by someone other than the Dormin is the fact that its part of the Dormin's architecture which can be seen through the the other buildings you can find (near the first water battle and around the first air battle. What I believe supports my theory about the Colossi being creations and and servants to the Dormin is the the fact that some of the Colossi have built in armor (which would imply that they were meant to have a purpose and someone would have to build that armor into them). -- Psi edit

• What I find odd is that the first fifteen idols explode after Wander returns to the shrine (and after the shadow creatures have had a good look at him for some time), but the sixteenth idol explodes before Wander even leaves #16's arena. I wonder if this has any significance, or if it was just done this way for the sake of making a better ending scene (having him reappear after Emon's men gather around Mono makes more sense, otherwise they'd have killed Wander before even looking at the girl.) Anyway, good theories here! Onlynameicanget 00:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your compliments. I noticed that part about how Wander doesnt leave the 16th Colossus's arena after he kills it. I think the only resonable explanation (besides the fact that it made a better ending playout) is that it the Dormin's essence had to generate completly (after having been gathered entirely) so they could teleport back to the Shrine to other Dormin spirits there. -- Psi edit

It seemed pretty obvious to me that the colossi were created as guardians of the seal put on Dormin, and that Dormin only knew how to strike them down, but couldn't as he was disembodied by the time they were created. Naturally, this would mean he'd need to con some desperate fool (Wander) into doing this dirty work for him. The magical glowing weak points were designed to ensure that Emon's people could defeat these colossi should any one of them turn rogue and attack. What they'd have to do in such a case, is build another one out of the defeated colossus, but that's not important…

See, what makes me think they weren't created by Dormin is the very fact that they resemble his architecture and the surrounding environment. That's why they almost seem to return to the land around them when they die. That's why huge gaps and chunks seem to be missing from the castles and the walls and the pillars across his domain. If they were built by him, why would he tear up his own towers and citadels to create them? Whoa, how about this: Dormin was once a colossus himself! And they sealed him away to shut him up, or because he wasn't conforming to whatever Emon's people wanted, or something. He did something to piss them off, that much is clear.

Also, completely off-topic, two things: At what point in the game does "The Farthest Land" play; and in the manual there is a screenshot depicting Wander running around in some snow. Is it really snow? Where is this snow? How can I get to it? (Momus 20:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

I dont think your comment is very clear. Your sating that because the Colossi resemble Dormin archeticture thats why he isnt made by them? And to your offtopics many of the games song werent put into the game so maybe thats why its unfamiliar. Also cuts were made to this game (why you cant see the snow area) look at the trailers. Psi edit 21:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I've cleared up my comments a bit, now. Take a look..

Think about this. He builds a kingdom in this now-forbidden land. He does something that Wander's people don't approve of. They separate his essence into 16 parts and have beings constructed from the scrap of Dormin's own structures to stand guard over these seperate pieces.

But anyway, now that I've been thinking he might've been a colossus originally, it makes me think he couldn't have built the 16 colossi himself. I mean, look at the Shrine of Worhip; it's the only structure still in one piece. It must have been built after or during Dormin's imprisonment. That's why the idols exist in only that location, and why the colossi are found scattered around the ruins.

Other questions to think about: maybe since he was so big (a colossus), he might've been involved in the construction of some of the structures found around the valley—the coliseum and the bridges and so forth. Then he angers Wander's people and they seal him away until Wander comes along and has his soul, chipped away by Dormin. Chipped and pulled apart and transfered to Mono's body so that, by the time the Sorcerer is defeated, there's room in Wander's body to fit Dormin's soul. Just wild speculation, but I really don't think the colossi were Dormin's own creations. (Momus 21:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

I believe that this

• years ago a race of people called (or possibly later called) the Dormin settle on a large area
• The Dormin (who possibly have horns) have magical abilities. They also worship no god.
• Wander's people (of this time) worship spirits and deities and their relegion is their law (anyone who defiles their relgion is a heretic, heathen, etc) this ties into Ico (a bit. Pleasse dont mention so much about Ico because I only know a little about it)
• The Dormin focus their energy and later they create huge creatures (these are the Colossi). The Colossi are created mostly from the earth around and weapons (and armor) are forged (or created somehow) for some of them them.
• The Dormin use these Colossi to help them settle the land and construct huge structures (you dont have to pay attentiion to this part its just side theory) along with their own (the Dormin's) magic. The structors are the Colliseum (mentioned by you) and the huge bridge and many others.
• Wander's people notice how the Dormin can create creatures. The people see this as a type "playing god" and decide to act war on the Dormin.
• The Dormin become a spirit like race and form together and become one huge entity. Their power is then scattered by the magic weapons of Wander's people which repels the magic of the Dormin.
• The Colossi just "stop" living and die.
• Wander comes (years later) and the Dormin then use the idols as beacon to bring their power into the dead Colossi which ressurects them so they may be killed by Wander who releases their power and brings back the Dormin.

Now onto the Shrine. The Shrine with idols was either

• A: The Dormin's creation to ressurect their own people (why would they have an altar for nothing?) before they became spirits. Also the Shrine is some sort of beacon for the Colossi.
• B: Created by Wander's people to seal the Dormin away (because this is the purpose it serves at the end). The Idols are.....(place theory here) -- Psi edit 22:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

- hmmm. i think what you propose is a legit theory, but i still tend to think that dormin was simply a demon or a demi-god who was defeated, separated, and imprisoned into golems so that he could not be unsealed, and the land was claimed forbidden to deter anyone from it even more. colossi being dormin's creations just don't make any sence to me. i don't see why dormin would create colossi, and why would people seal dormin into them rather then destry them if they are his creations.

also, i think it's important to note 2 things - the fact that dormin states in the beginning that idols need to be destroyed, rather then just telling Wanda to slay the colossi, so idols themselves are clearly of significant. and two - the fact that after dormin was consumed by the portal, the magic holding the bridge together desintegrated. i am not quite sure how to put all of this together into a cohesive framework, but then again, it could be just that the plot is underdeveloped and takes a back seat to plot devices and such. Tani unit 00:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Then why does the Dormin refer to itself as "We". Also it speaks in two voices. And the Dormin creating the Colossi is probably my personal opinion. But then again who made them their armor? -- Psi edit 02:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

- it could be that dormin simply address itself as "we" as a status indicator (same way as kings and queens did, a king would refer to himself as "us" or "we"). or it could be that sounding like a multitude of voices could be just an effect to further push the idea of it's demonic origins and disallow tying dormin to any particular gender or age. as far as "armor" goes, i don't see what makes you think that it wasn't created along with the colossus. Gaius has a arm-guard _and_ a sword, both of which are merely pieces of architecture. Gigus even has a skirt. I think they are just parts of colossus' design and don't signify that someone added them afterwords. Tani unit 02:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Off-topic once more! If you wait a few moments at the title screen, a scene of Agro frolicking across the valley sans Wander is shown. Over top of it, "The Farthest Land" is played. Go to the title screen now and listen! It is a very good track.

Also… this hasn't been asked yet, I'm surpirsed: I want to know who the baby is. Is it Wander, or Dormin, or both? (Momus 01:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC))

I think its both. Because I see no reason that Wander would be reverted back to a child just because he landed in the sealing pool. however twith the mixture of his being and the sprits of the Dormin, it would create new life. Also if you know the overview of Ico then youll see...... -- Psi edit 02:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Insight

GS forum

Pretty insightful reading. (Momus 04:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC))

Colossi names

What were the referances for the name table?

I think it was from a Japanese magazine that had a section devoted to the game. Psi edit 06:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article?

I'm just passing through, and I've noticed that this article is of excellent quality and is pretty stout. I wouldn't be surprised if this were a featured article; I was a bit amazed to see that it wasn't when I clicked discussion. You guys plan to submit?--Zeality 04:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to try that. However I can see why people would object to it. And if the main page info should include somehting on how its the sequel to Ico. -- Psi edit 20:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

This article looks like it could be feature article, but since I haven't beaten the game yet I have not thoroughly read it yet. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 12:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Connections to ICO

Not a regular wiki user, but combing through the whole page, fixing any remaining Argo into Agro, I stumbled on this: "Its also speculated that Ico could have been Wander's reincarnate as well, since the two share facial similarities", which seems more like wishful thinking rather than fact, especially with ICO's more Asian complexion and traits. ~ole

I concur with this. I also think it is an unjustified stretch to say that there is any connection between Mono and Ico's Queen, or the Temple of Worship and the castle from Ico. I think the only take that is strongly-supported by the events of the ending is that the baby is the first in the line of horned children seen in Ico. Everything beyond that is, to me, wishful thinking as well. I get the impression that this is a very minority opinion, though, so I'm reluctant to try to insert it into the article. ~ Steve-o 06:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. I would support the removal of the entire Connections to ICO section. Yes, the section it's under is called Story Speculation, but none of the items in that particular segment are substantiated by anything in the game. Many sentences start with the words "many fans believe." Belief isn't proof. Lots of Harry Potter fans believe Draco Malfoy loves Hermione Granger, but that doesn't make it true.  :) It's all very well to draw parallels between the ruins, and the shadows, and the look of the game: well, they were made by the same people, weren't they? That's obvious and fine, which is what Wikipedia is for—reporting that which other have discovered or reported. It's not for original writing or concepts. That's what magazines and journals are for. —ZorkFox 00:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ico and Shadow take place in the same world. That is all. The horned child at the end is supposed to show how the culture of Ico began (as Ico is shunned from his village from his village for having horns). It should be just said that Ico wears the similar clothes to Wander (may look a bit similar) and the same applies to Yorda and Mono aswell. The fan talk is ok though but a little too fanwritten for some. -- Psi edit 01:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and rewrote the section. Take a look and see what you think. —ZorkFox 02:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC) (edited to include my signature; I somehow became logged out!)

I think these changes are an improvement. Thanks. You may have been a little overzealous on one point, though -- I haven't read a large number of different discussions of the game, but it seems as if the "Mono is the Queen" theory is rather popular (even in the absence of claiming that the Temple of Worship is the castle in Ico), and I don't think it would hurt to mention that in passing as one (purely speculative) impression. --Steve-o 03:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read the same discussions, so you're probably better qualified to add a line about that, but I didn't see anything in Shadow of the Colossus which suggests it, and I was trying to keep the discussion centered on things that are actually in the game, rather than invented or discussed by fans. —ZorkFox 04:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have read the Mono-as-Queen theories and wrote something brief about it. The theory is not at all convincing, but it does deserve some mention -- although I did include an alternate explanation to the very basis of that theory (Dormin's "female half" disappearing).