Talk:Sex symbol

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[edit] Edit war over pictures

Ah dear, it seems there's a bit of an edit war going on over the pictures... at least the last five changes (I only looked at that many, could be more!) have been people just putting different pictures instead of the ones that were there. I think we should actually 'disscuss whose pictures should be up there so there can be a consensus and people won't just keep doing these random picture changes. Well, they might, but at least then there'll be agreement on what to change it back to. --69.156.97.180 21:54, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Section on businesses?

It seems to me the the section on businesses doesn't actually have anything to do with this article. Can I delete it? The article states at the beginning the "a sex symbol is a famous person". In that case, what has a business's hiring of attractive waitresses got to do with it? It makes the whole article seem amateurish.

[edit] Links moved here

(Moved these here until they get some entries to link to)

See also : Sex appeal,sexy,sexual attractiveness.

That's not how you do it. You leave the broken links in the main article. That way people can see them and say "We have all those articles on Atlas Shrugged, but no article on Sex appeal? How can this be? I won't stand for it. I will write something on Sex appeal right now!"
This is one of the main mechanisms for getting new articles written on Wikipedia. Please don't break it. -- Geronimo Jones.
Wikipedia is not a dictionary (also Encyclopedia and or versus dictionary). I doubt we need entries for Sex appeal,sexy,sexual attractiveness. (If you want to prove me wrong, have at it.  :-) )
Sexual attractiveness is probably a big one. Many biologists quietly suspect it plays a much bigger part in evolution of the species than the usual suspects (camoflage, being big and fast, being tall to reach the acacia leaves etc). Probably there are massive amounts of academic work out there on this subject, for both humans and other animals, and across a wide range of academic disciples. It would definitely make a good article, but as a non-biologist, i leave it to others :-) The other two topics are less clearly worthwhile, maybe they could be deleted.
My point though, is that deleting a silly link because it is silly maybe ok, but NEVER delete a link just because it points at an article that doesn't exist yet. Broken links are probably the most important growth mechanism in the whole of Wikipedia.
Ok!! I thought moving the links to the / Talk page was a good compromise. (And I notice that no one has yet taken it upon themselves to restore them to the main entry page for Sex symbol.)
I think even silly links should be there, for "I will write something right now" reason. They should redirect to real articles. Rp (talk) 07:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Light on entries?

Hmm, looks like Wikipedia is still light on meaningful entries on sex symbols. Don't know what that says about our range of interests.  :-)

I'm really wondering how long my bit of graffiti in the main article will last... it's already been more than 12 hours...! Either every one else is playing along, or people don't copyedit as thoroughly as they should. - MB

If you are referring to Keith Richards, I'll let it slide for now ;-) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 05:19 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Here is a note by the BBC on British Sex Symbols (including Ann Widdecombe) [1]

[edit] Image

I replace unverified photo of unnamed woman with the Britney Spears pic as we actually have a verified public domain photo of her. -- Infrogmation 22:35, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Alternative illustration: Example of a "sex symbol"

well one day Kristin Kreuk and Michelle Branch will become successful and their pictures will be up! (Kyla 02:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC))

I think the Angelina Jolie picture I'm seeing now is fine, but the comment could be more accurate: she may look a bit "exotic", but's sexy specifically because of big lips and big eyes. Rp 21:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Right now there's a picture of a World of Warcraft character, and the caption says "Night Elf women are considered sex symbols among World of Warcraft players". I'm not sure this is appropriate, especially since it assumes there are no gay male or heterosexual female WoW players. I also think the article should be about individuals seen as having great sex appeal, so if we were going to include video game characters at all perhaps Lara Croft would be better. But couldn't there be a picture of, I don't know, Colin Farrell or Hugh Grant or someone who is a verifiable mainstream sex symbol for heterosexual women? Or what about a photo of Angelina and Brad Pitt, since both are sex symbols? --Grace 21:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I put Monroe up because she is widely recognized and was undisputably a sex symbol. I think it would be much better to stick to old sex symbols rather than new ones like "night elves" or Angelina Jolie.
That world of warcraft picture is pretty ridiculous. i laughed when i saw it. i dont mean to be insulting, but i think that that just screams "out of touch nerd." In the big picture, world of warcraft has no relevance to sex symbols. someone is too into world of warcraft if they think this picture of a computer simulated girl who most people have know idea of deserves a picture more than britney spears, or pamela anderson, or any actual person.--Atticus2020 18:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, they are definitely sex symbols within that community, but its still pretty ridiculous. There are no mentions of sex symbols in video games, and only a few mentions of sex symbols in fiction, so I think its a bit strange to just have the picture there.

[edit] changes to be considered

I think the article should be improved as follows:

  • There's no need to use copyright photos. Since we're not really discussing the specific person in the photo, we should select from the many PD images of sex symbols, and use them instead of copyrighted images.
  • It's ok to talk about less common male sex symbols, but it's absurd to mention obscure names like Brian Molko without first mentioning huge sex symbols, like Elvis, Rock Hudson, and others.
  • It's not necessary to list all the FHM "lists". Listing one FHM list is sufficient (I assume there are further links inside).
  • The way the article says androgyny men are extra likely to be sex-symbols in the gay community is flawed. Yes, some are. But that's not a "gay thing". Gay men are generally attracted to men who like like men, like straight men are attracted to women who like like women, etc...

I'll think about this a bit more, before doing anything, and am open to feedback (and criticism) on my ideas. --rob 13:04, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

All of these ideas sound good, except that I don't know much about the gay-community. Men can definitely be sex symbols, and FHM isn't relevant enough to include dozens of their lists. johnpseudo 20:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I added a picture up...hope you all don't mind! She is definitely a sex symbol. Tell me if I'm wrong..Last time I put Kristin Kreuk and Michelle Branch up, it ended up being deleted. I sure hope that my current picture doesn't get deleted or else I'll be really sad. (Kyla 20:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC))

Again, I feel the pictures should be changed. The issue is not whether or not the pictures are sex symbols or not, it is who would be the most universally recognized and typical sex symbol. Personally, I don't know who either or these women are and I don't expect most other people do either.


[edit] Image edit wars

May I suggest that we add these two image - Betty Grable and Raquel Welch (already on the page) because they are two classic pictures and the women in them are too old for most Wikipedia users to have a thing for. This last point is important. If we put on the page whoever is the latest hot young thing, the images will be continuously getting changed by all the young men on the internet who wish to replace it with a photo of whatever hot young thing they currently have a thing for. Thats why I suggest these photos, in order to stop the edit wars. Alternatively, we could have maybe Marylin Monroe or Brigitte Bardot. Maybe even one female picture and then one male picture -like of Clark Gable, Rock Hudson, Cary Grant, or a young Burt Reynolds. - Matthew238 08:08, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Being an encyclopedic article, the focus should be on the phenomenon of sex symbols in popular culture, not a current events "who's hot this week". I approve of the notion of avoiding current celeb pix in favor of icons of some familiarity to more than one generation (eg, Marylin Monroe, Clark Gable, etc). Cheers, -- Infrogmation 19:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree; I think there's nothing wrong with the picture all the time; after all, the objective is not to define a particular person. However, and this is related, I believe the given definition is too weak: a sex symbol is not only a person widely considered to be sexy, but a person (whose name is) often used to stand for a sexy person in general. That is what "symbol" means. I doubt that Angeline Jolie fits in this category; Marilyn Monroe clearly does, as do several contemporary actors.

[edit] Gay icons

I don't know that the definition of gay icons as it relates to sex symbols is really appropriate. Maybe there should be some discussion on this. -Seth Mahoney 22:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. There's a big difference between being a gay icon and being a sex symbol for gay men. (For one thing, the former are usually women, the latter invariably men.) I strongly doubt that Brian Molko, Eddie Izzard, or Frank N. Furter can really be called either gay icons or sex symbols. --Angr (t·c) 22:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
In fact, I'm going ahead and removing the paragraph. As currently written it doesn't seem in any way relevant to the topic of sex symbols. But a paragraph contrasting the characteristics of what makes a man a sex symbol for women vs. what makes a man a sex symbol for men would be interesting, if there are sources on the issue. --Angr (t·c) 22:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] World of Warcraft image

So do we agree to remove that Night Elf image, then? (See discussion above.) I suggest replacing it with someone contemporary who appeals mainly to women, in order to contrast with Marilyn Monroe. I think we should choose someone who won People magazine's Sexiest_Man_Alive competition, but not the most recent - maybe Brad Pitt, since he won twice, 1995 and 2000. --Grace 00:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Good God! That Night Elf has ABSOLUTELY NO business being there.
Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end.
I agree. WoW players are too select a group to really be representative. If an image from video games is what we're looking for something like Lara Croft (or whatever) would be more representative. -Smahoney 18:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Angelina Jolie

What is wrong with Angelina Jolie??? She is a sex symbol and everyone knoes that. She's way hotter than Marilyn Monroe!!! What kind of role model commits suicide? At least Angelina Jolie doesn't do that. (207.156.201.242)

"Sex symbol" and "role model" are not synonyms. Powers 20:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I guess there can hardly be any doubt that Jolie is the sex symbol of this decade, though I absolutely agree that there can't be anyone else on top of this article than Marilyn Monroe.
I just looked into the history of this article and there seems to be an edit war about the leading picture between Jolie and Monroe. I would suggest to include a second image, featuring Jolie, to stop this rivalry. IMHO a suitable picutre would be the 'Sexiest Woman Alive' Esquire cover, since it (a) could be used under the magazine cover fair use licensing, (b) fits the theme of this article and (c) the cover already justifies Jolie's inclusion due to its cover story to a certain extend. -- EnemyOfTheState 18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I guess a second picture like the World of Warcraft image wouldn't hurt. Jolie is mentioned in the text, why not. 138.246.7.7 15:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Come on, Jolie as an archetype of sex symbol? What is happening with this generation and its huge lack of taste? 81.208.83.222 12:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Putting Jolie rather than Monroe as the main picture would be a prime example of recentism--24.85.68.231 (talk) 23:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] virtual sex symbols?

What about internet sex symbols? Or virtual sex symbols like Lara Croft?

under cartoons and i don't think she qualifies

[edit] List of sex symbols

Current article is starting to look like a list of sex symbols, not article about the term. Everybody keep adding their preferred male/female sex symbol here. So I propose to create a separate List of sex symbols and keep here just relevant entries (ie, for example, first sex symbols, first male sex symbol) - and no more then two or three names per paragraph.

On a separate matter, this article could really use some sources. DLX 05:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Very right. This article is atrocious as of now. Where are the stuff on women's role in society, the psychological background, history that includes sex symbols from ancient times (Helen of Troy or Urvashi of India)? And obviously where is the rest of the world? Even as a list this article is pretty useless. Surely we don't pretended that there are no sex symbols in China, India or elsewhere? This is a high example of systemic bias, I guess. Aditya Kabir 15:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] definition

surely a sex symbol has to be notable for being found sexually attractive, and not notable and sexually attractive independently, as currently suggested by the lead. Please revise.--24.85.68.231 (talk) 23:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musician Clean Up Please?

Only a few of the musicians mentioned were actually considered sex symbols, I have nothing against the people you mentioned personally, but Sex Symbols? I think Christina Aguilera, Ciara, Natalie Bassingthwaighte, Fergie, and Jessica Simpson should be removed, they aren't known enough to be in the ranks with the other internation superstar sex symbols like Britney Spears (Who arguably was the most influential), Justin Timberlake, Kylie Minogue, Shakira and Beyonce but I honestly think Jennifer Lopez should be mentioned

Someone deleted Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera from the music list, but I restored them while I find sources for sex symbol status (even if they are minor sex symbols)
Someone added Beyonce, but I took it out after looking at its article and seeing no mention of being a sex symbol. Anyone has a source for her? --Enric Naval (talk) 08:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] HEIDI KLUM; SILVERSCREEN SEX SYMBOL?

not only do i not think she should not be mentioned, but I think if she has to be mentioned, easily put her under models I also think Jennifer Lopez is more known for her sex appeal in music, not movies also half of the actresses/actors are all far cries from sex symbols Sex symbols make IMPACTS to Pop Culture, like Marilyn, Angelina, Britney and Madonna, but what is up with people like Keira Knightly, shes hardly known for being sexy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.235.119 (talk) 02:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article too personal, arbitrary

The listed celebrities named as sex symbols seems totally arbitrary, rather than grounded in historical and cultural evidence. There's little or no mention of early male sex symbols like Elvis and James Dean, discussion of whom might fill out the definition of a sex symbol and contribute to an understanding of the development of the concept throughout the latter half of the 20th Century. Would some separation of male and female sex symbols be useful, as they have developed quite differently and sometimes operate differently in a cultural context?

The article also seems a little too personal, observing that modern movie stars are more "overtly sexual, as opposed to the classy sex appeal of Marilyn Monroe or Audrey Hepburn" I suspect Audrey Hepburn would object to being lumped in with Marilyn Monroe, and what does "classy" mean in this contect anyway? Does it mean covert as opposed to overt? Further examination of this concept is needed, as it currently constitutes a poorly expressed personal opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.211.234 (talk) 03:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] film cleanup

After this deletion that didnt mention any reasons for it [2], I examined the deleted entries:

[edit] Pornography / Monica Bellucci

Pornography

I don't understand how Monica Bellucci fits in the following sentience. I do not believe she has done pornographic material on the level of Jenna Jameson. I belive Charlize Theron has been seen naked more times then Bellucci (I could be wrong) but I wouldn't say either one of them are pornographic sex symbols. The citation includes several names on it of performers who do not participate in pornography and I just think its a little misleading.

"Depending on how wide the term 'general audience' extends, pornographic film stars might well be included as sex symbols. Jenna Jameson would be an example of one candidate.

Also, Monica Bellucci[25]." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.183.38.88 (talk) 06:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, you are right. I guess I got trapped on the dynamic of making long lists of names. Her name was also left hanging and with no context and on hindsight I can see that I had just left a hook to start adding yet another list of names. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)