Talk:Seven rays
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[edit] Blavatsky
Blavatsky did NOT write about the seven rays - in the sense it is used in this article. I feel that reference should be removed, or explained more.
kh7 14:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Blavatsky DID write about the SEVEN RAYS - and throughout her writings there are continual references to the septenary aspects of creation, manifestation, and evolution. Arion 16:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The list of rays
Wouldn't this look so much clearer if it were in two tables, like the one here? That's the Alice A. Bailey table and then there'd be another for the Church Universal.
Also, does Alice Bailey define the master of the fourth ray as Serapis or Serapis Bey, because they are different, and in the current description it has Serapis yet links to Serapis Bey. Might be worth clarifying or sourcing. - Zeibura (Talk) 16:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] merge proposal
There has been a proposal to merge this article with "Ascended Master Teachings". I disagree with this. It would be the same as suggesting merging "Bishop (Catholic Church)" or "Purgatory" with the article on the "Roman Catholic Church". Arion (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- It's a question of notability as established by reliable sources. The standards are at WP:N and WP:SOURCES. Currently, the article does not appear to meet those standards. Fireplace (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The notability is established by reliable sources. This religious / philosophical belief has been part of esoteric and religious organizations for centuries. Arion (talk) 01:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- The standard is whether the topic "Seven rays" "has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." Which sources in the article meet that standard? Fireplace (talk) 03:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
These sources:
- Partridge, Christopher ed. New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities Oxford University Press, USA 2004. pages 330 - 334
- Lewis, James R. Church Universal and Triumphant in Scholarly Perspective Center For Academic Publication 1994.
- Braden, Charles S. These Also Believe MacMillan Publishing Company 2000 pages 257 - 307
Notability is established by reliable sources. Arion (talk) 05:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- Alright, I'll take a look when I get a chance, it seems they are all in my university library. The question is whether they give significant coverage to the seven rays doctrine itself, or whether they just give coverage to the religious movements. Fireplace (talk) 06:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I checked the sources. The first source you gave does not discuss the "seven rays" in the pages you cited, nor in any other pages I saw, nor in the index. The second source does not seem to be located in the Harvard library system, which is the largest academic library in the world -- making me doubt that it could constitute "substantial coverage". The third source you gave doesn't seem to mention the "seven rays" either, although a couple times there are passing references to a "seven-fold committee". Certainly nothing rising to the level of substantial coverage. Any more wild goose chases you want to send me on? Fireplace (talk) 01:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- You've repeated the "wild goose chase" accusations several times, so you have forced me to respond. "Wild goose chase", in my understanding, refers to someone telling someone to go somewhere to find something that is not there, and that person knows it. I gave the references to you in the full belief that I had seen that "Seven Rays" belief mentioned in those books.
- I apologize if the reference to the "Seven Rays" septenary belief was not specifically mentioned in 2 of the 3 books that I mentioned to you and that you checked. I have all 3 books in my home library, but did not actually check for specific mention of that "Seven Rays" belief before I mentioned the books. I remembered that they made a summary statement on some of the beliefs, and I thought that the "Seven Rays" theory would definitely have been mentioned. I still have not had time to go to my home library to check into the text of the 3rd book, but I hope to do that soon. Arion (talk) 01:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
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- Here is one of the Seven Rays references I was remembering from the 3 books I mentioned to you:
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- Lewis, James R. Church Universal and Triumphant in Scholarly Perspective Stanford, California: Center For Academic Publication 1994
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- page 4: "Guy Ballard's contact with Saint Germain in 1929 placed him in the same role claimed by Madame Blavatsky. Upon his return to Chicago, he began to deliver dictated messages to a small group who met in his southside home. From that time forward he regularly dictated messages from Saint Germain, Jesus, and those personages described by Blavatsky as the Lords of the Seven Rays - those Masters most immediately concerned with the course of human evolution."
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- The other book's mention of "seven-fold committee" apparently refers to their organizing that committee in a manner that corresponds to each of the "Seven Rays". Arion 3x3 (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree about keeping this as a separate article, and I wrote the reasons at the other discussion on the other talk page. --Linda (talk) 06:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- It's now less a question of merging, and more a question of whether this would survive AFD. If someone points to reliable, independent sources giving this topic substantial coverage, I'm happy to let the WP:N issue drop (see my comment immediately above yours for why Arion's sources don't work). Fireplace (talk) 01:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Courtesy notification of report at WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard
This is to inform editors on this page that this topic, along with a list of related topics, have been mentioned in a report at this link on the WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard. It has been mentioned in the noticeboard report that some of the articles listed in the report may be nominated for deletion.
The report at the noticeboard was not posted by me. I'm placing this comment here as a courtesy for the editors working on this article. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Minority religious beliefs should not be treated as "fringe theories"
All one can do with any religion, let alone those apart from the mainstream, is to faithfully report their beliefs taken from the literature of the believers of their religious belief system. In doing so, we are not assesing truth claims (such as the Mormons believing that God is a physical being on another planet), one simply reports on the beliefs held, with as much accuracy as possible - with reliable sources and references.
There is no need at all to assess the truth claims of the 20th century new religions. If people were to delve into assessing the truth claims of religion, then an entry on Christianity may as well begin with assessing whether God exists. The best approach would seem to be an accurate rendition of any movement's beliefs, nature, history and activities (regardless of what a Wikipedia editor's own views are). Questioning the validity of religious beliefs isn't the role of an encyclopedia entry. Arion (talk) 13:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] new approach
The Seven Rays are more than only a Theosophy concept, they are in lots of religions.
So I changed around the page a lot tonight and it has lots of new references.
The short parts still need to be made longer and the Theosophy parts need to be organized and cleaned up but I think this is a good start.
I made a section for early western mystery traditions because I have some info to put there but I didn't have time to get to that. --Linda (talk) 10:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Now I added the stuff I found that the Gnostics and early mystery religions used the Seven Rays too. --Linda (talk) 07:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
- Are there reliable sources saying that the "seven rays" referred to in early religions, catholicism, hinduism, and theosophy all refer to more-or-less the same concept, or at least are all related to one another? I'm worried that there might be some original synthesis going on here. Fireplace (talk) 02:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
