Talk:Seven (film)

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Seven (film) was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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Contents

[edit] Rearrangement

The section titles for "Texts" through "NPOV" were added by me to clean up the page a bit. They might not be what those people would have chosen for themselves. -Parallel or Together? 12:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: the film technique is called Bleach Bypassing and "increased its overall tonal quality" as a description doesn't actually mean anything.

[edit] Texts

I've havent seen the film but I would like to know which materials were employed for all the texts with which the killer accused his victims... Why? 'Cause I want to take those ideas into a distinct text and... Shouldn't the spoiler be "symmetrical"? That is... If tells "gluttony" was written with grease and "greed" with blood... It should tell the same corresponding info about the other sins he hated so much... Please... Add the info if you can.... By the way... His envious crime... That was terrible! He deserved more than just being shot tp death! (I see I'm wrath)...

[edit] Spoiler

Doesn't it seem weird to give the identity of the killer so blatantly, before the spoiler warning? It almost looks planted. -qartis

I don't think it gives away any of the plot to have it there. The story is about a killer and he doesn't show up until they've caught him, so it's not like it's a plot twist being revealed. violet/riga (t) 10:57, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I find it ironic that the killer's identity is revealed at the intro to the article, above the spoiler tag. Kevin Spacey specifically requested that his name not be included in the opening credits, so that his appearance would surprise the audience. --Madchester 20:38, 2005 Mar 27 (UTC)
Kevin Spacey specifically requested that his name not appear in the opening credits, AS WELL AS all posters for the movie before it came out - he didn't even go on the publicity tour. I am removing this information from before the spoiler warning. -Parallel or Together? 12:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
So, why not move the spoiler warning up to the cast section? Or move the cast section down? Or, I realize this is odd for a Wikipedia article, obscure K.S.'s name in the link such as "*spoiler* as John Doe"? Dismas|(talk) 18:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wild Goose Chase

I removed the "wild goose chase" comment as it was inaccurate. A "wild goose chase" is the pursuit of something impossible (or nearly impossible) to attain. In this film, they were running after a suspect and almost caught him, hardly an impossible task. --Feitclub 20:21, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Se7en

The title shown in the movie's opening credits is Se7en, not Seven. Shouldn't the listing here be the other way around - that Seven is the promotional title? --138.238.96.100 06:03, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Although the description of the movie's plot is very good and detailed, I feel that there are too many positive comments for the movie. I liked Seven very much myself but I think that as an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should keep a NPOV in all of its articles. Bill the Greek 12:11, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Seven

imo the Seven page should link to the movie directly, and have a link to 7 (number) on top; I doubt many people will look for the number by writing it out, scrolling down the number page for the movie is inconvenient; if one wants to know what the word seven means one could use wiktionary ... of course that might break consistency with articles like six or eight - sorry if that topic was already discussed. (clem 18:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Old requested move

Seven (movie) - Se7en (movie). "Se7en" is the title's spelling used by IMDb, so should be accepted as standard. Zafiroblue05 02:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UCT)

  • Oppose, because the IMDb is not the final arbiter in these things. They in fact use the title that appears at the start of the credits, even if, as in this case, that is a quirky title that isn't necessarily the standard. "Seven" is used at least as much as "Se7en", and much of the use of the latter is probably because of the IMDb anyway. sjorford →•← 20:11, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Support move to Se7en (not Se7en (movie), because there are no other "Se7en"s). The movie's actual, official title should be used, regardless of whether or not it fits normal spelling or grammar. -Sean Curtin 23:10, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Take a look to the poster[1], to the Amazon entry[2] or to this other dvd cover[3]: title is seVen, not se7en. If both version are somewhat "official" I prefer seven, the only one I knew before reading se7en here. GhePeU 23:25, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose move: use common name. Jonathunder 04:02, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)
  • Support move to Se7en, as that is the title of the movie in the title card/title sequence -Acjelen 00:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Support move to Se7en. Present the title as it should in the titles. This reminds me of X2, on all posters and promotion it was called X2:X-Men United or X-Men2:X-Men United... but those were just promotional titles and the true name of the film is still X2, as shown in the opening credits.--Madchester 06:12, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Isn't the film's title Seven, and "sesevenen" is just a stylistic decision used in some promotional material?

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. I'd recommend changing Se7en into a redirect to this article. violet/riga (t) 19:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Move to Se7en (not Se7en (movie), because there are no other "Se7en"s). The movie's actual, official title should be used, regardless of whether or not it fits normal spelling or grammar. -Sean Curtin 23:10, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

It looks to me like Seven is the official title, IMDb nonwithstanding. — Knowledge Seeker দ 00:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, what does official mean? "Se7en" is, after all, the title in the opening credits. That Movie posters are created by promotion teams. Opening credits are made the filmmakers. Don't the filmmakers get to choose the official title? Zafiroblue05 16:47, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Use common name. Jonathunder 04:02, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Personally, I think it IS the common name. I personally have seen "Se7en" used probably about 3/4 of the time (of course, other people may see "Seven" more). It's the title on the opening credits - which definitely makes it seem like the "official" title, no? Plus, searching for "Seven" goes straight to the number - one has to search for "Se7en" to find a disambiguation page to find the movie... Zafiroblue05 16:39, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Apart from the huge disambiguation list on 7 (number), you mean? sjorford →•← 22:42, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

At the *bottom* of the page... Zafiroblue05 06:27, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Another thing: look at the website: http://www.newline.com/sites/seven/index.html The movie is always referred to as "Se7en" (except in the actual URL). Zafiroblue05 16:51, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

As a librarian, I can tell you that any respectable library catalog will have the movie under Se7en (hopefully with a cross reference from Seven) as that is the name from the title card. They teach us in library school to catalog according to the "item itself" and not the container. In a similar vein, the first movie released with the Indiana Jones character will be titled Raiders of the Lost Ark regardless of what the VHS or DVD boxes say. -Acjelen 00:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, the BBFC has the film listed under the title Se7en, meaning that was the title under which it was submitted to them by the distributors. --ascorbic 22:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't care what people who've obviously never watched this movie say, it belongs under Se7en. Seven is acceptable in a chatroom or an informal forum discussion, but Se7en is the universally accepted offical name. I know some people has to fight about things no matter what and can't stand to be wrong, but live with it. To those that say they prefer Seven: sorry but sites like Wikipedia are about fact, not opinion, so your preferences have no bearing here. To those that claim Seven is the official name: Declared official by who? You? Please provide sources and basis for your declarations of fact. I would think that the name as shown in the title card would be more official than anything you would find on a third-party site, even IMDB. Sorry, but that's just the way the world works: It's the people that create the product that chooses the name, not you or some know-it-all site. Thanks for reading my rant.

This should clearly be at Seven (film). According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks): "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner encourages special treatment" - Fredrik | talk 01:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that the title should be "Seven (film)" as this isn't an issue of formatting or capitalization, but the spelling. Also, most of the time a film title is not a trademark (except in cases like Harry Potter, etc.) I vote for "Se7en". --Fallout boy 06:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It has to be Se7en. That is the name of the film. It is not now, nor has it ever been Seven. IMDB has it as Se7en, the Platinum DVD has it as Se7en, libraries have it as Se7en, the BBFC has it as Se7en, New Line Cinema has it as Se7en, the movie itself uses Se7en... and wikipedia has it as Seven. No. I don't understand how we don't have consensus on this yet? Looks like it has been discussed for a while. I urge people to agree on Se7en. So far the opinion splits like this:

Se7en

Seven

Parallel or Together? 12:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

So, based on the credits of 'Annie Hall', we should also misspell Christopher Walken's name in Wikipedia? I'm really curious how people are supposed to pronounce the alleged title of this movie, apparently "seh-sev-en-en". Sounds pretty stupid to me. Also, if we're going to go with "Se7en" as the title, shouldn't there be a picture up which reflects that? The poster clearly spells the word correctly. ThatGuamGuy 19:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)sean
As noted above, it isn't just based on a mistake in the credits. It's more the fact that it's New Line's movie, so the title is what they say it is. And they seem to say the written title is "SE7EN". With the notable exception of the one-sheet you mention, everything else they have put out, that has the title written, has it like that. Mwelch 20:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
A screencap of the title card in the movie probably should be added to the article, but as the pic in the infobox or somewhere in the main body of the article? Also, to answer ThatGuamGuy: The movie's title is simply said "Seven", despite the funky spelling. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hacker?

What about an article about the hacker named se7en?

[edit] Theme

I added the subtitle of theme and tried to incorporate what I believe was the main theme of the movie--RZeidan 14:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The subtitle of cinematography was added inorder to give the audience an appreciation of how Director David Fincher created an envirornment which was conducive for this thrilling movie.--RZeidan 14:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

It's about time the POV adulatory critical comments were either backed up or removed. The article has had NPOV sitting on it for far too long. Neocapitalist 03:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

As a start, I just took out the Public Response response section. This whole article is POV, really. I'm at a loss at how to fix it without a re-write. Brian Schlosser42 20:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The critical sections were the only POV, I thought. It doesn't read as POV now, so I'm taking off the neutrality disputed tag. Neocapitalist 15:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] John Doe

John Doe the killer is a fascinating character and may warrant an entry of his own. Hannibal Lector has one after all.70.59.142.151 22:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Possibly, but Lecter was a principal character in three books which were made into movies, whereas John Doe is only featured in one movie. I added a reference to Doe to the Popular culture section in the article on serial killers, but didn't expound on him.

[edit] Where's Vanity?

I think there's something missing in this article...where's vanity?

Didn't the disfigured model who commits suicide represent vanity? The article lists this as "pride". [[UserNope. Don't think so.

Vanity is missing from the article, leaving this entry with six deadly sins and not Se7en.

Now...which murder represents pride?

Edit: okay, I take it back.

Vanity is not one of the seven deadly sins. This is what I get for getting my entire religious education from the Dudley Moore/Peter Cook film "Bedazzled". —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Helenabucket talk • contribs|Helenabucket talk • contribs]] ([[User talk:Helenabucket talk • contribs|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Helenabucket talk • contribs|contribs]])

Most hilarious post made on a discussion page thus far this year. 65.145.212.173 09:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Somerset's retirement

In regards to the changes made by Mwelch: The movie doesn't appear to give any definite indication that Somerset is re-considering his retirement. Is this to be inferred from the dialogue and the Hemingway quote? Willbyr 04:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

- He also tells his boss that "he'll be around", hinting that he isnt leaving. He quotes hemmingway's "The world is a great place, and worth fighting for" and says he agrees only with the second part. Thus, he states that he wants to fight for the world, despite it being so horrible. A change in opinion from earlier in the movie. This means he wishes to stay on the force, and keep "fighting". - SMOOTHMEDIA

While this may be true, without something official to back up the supposition it remains a supposition and thus really isn't appropriate for inclusion. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Then is it also not appropriate for inclusion that Tracy's head was in the box? We never saw it. No one ever said, "Tracy's head was in that box." It remains a supposition.
But of course it's obvious that her head was in the box. That is the whole point of all of the characters' subsequent reactions that we see. So it would be silly not to include it here.
I'd submit Somerset's non-retirement is also obvious. That is the whole point of the subsequent Hemingway quote that we hear him give us. What does the final Hemingway quote mean, in Somerset's context, if it doesn't mean that? Is there any other plausible explanation? Mwelch 21:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pride

Doesn't it appear very similar to the suicide of pornstar Savannah, who recieved severe facial damage in a car accident(driving under cocain) and an hour later shot herself? -cthulhoid

[edit] Location

There is one other indication in the film as to the location: Near the end, after Somerset has stopped the deliveryman, and opened the box, he yells into his microphone (talking to the SWAT team in the helicopter), "California, don't come in here, John Doe is holding all the cards!" The setting, and this comment would seem to indicate they are somewhere in southern California. --Charles 18:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

"California" is just the character's name (like Joaquin Phoenix's character in another Andy Walker screenplay, 8MM); it doesn't mean he's either from or in California. It's just a name.Lontano 02:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The appearance of the Chester Williams Bldg (as Somerset leaves the site of the foot chase) is far more specific. As for the nickname "California" it could be argued that this in fact indicates the SWAT leader is from elsewhere. --203.110.28.218 11:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
You lost me with the reference to the Chester Williams Building. Tell me more. --Charles 20:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In the scene with Tracy and Somerset talking at a diner, she says things are very different "upstate" as though that's where she and Mills lived before. This makes me think of New York. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.239.85.198 (talk • contribs) on 03:53, January 3, 2007 (UTC); Please sign your posts!

[edit] See also

Are either of the listings in the See also section really relevant? Do we really need to go read the article on the number 7? --Charles 06:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lust.

The section on Lust mentions that the audience doesn't see the instrument used for this killing. However, I have seen a version where the veiwers are shown the instrument. It takes place during the interrogation scene back at the police station. For about two or three frames (similar to the length of time Gwyneth Paltrow's head is shown at the end), a polaroid flashed onto the screen showing a strap-on dildo-like instrument, with a machete in place of the phallus. The article mentions this, but I'm still not sure if the author has made it clear as to whether the audience has seen this.

I was wondering about this myself, because I clearly remembered seeing the instrument at some point in the movie. The article should be edited accordingly. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 20:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought the article said we don't see the polaroid while in the leather shop, which we don't. We do see the polaroid while in the police station. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.239.85.198 (talk) 03:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Delisted GA

I delisted the article from GA nom for the following reasons

  1. Plot summarry is way too long and takes up most of the article
  2. Trivia section should be removed or merged to the article, as it's mostly uncyclopedic
  3. Soundtrack should be on an seperate article, or removed
  4. Nothing on crtictism, reviews, how the cast was formed?
  5. Clear lack of refs
  6. images has no fair use rationales

Article needs some heavy work see Halloween (film) for a good example of an movie FA. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 06:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New addition

The added section about John Doe is an interesting read, but is heavily POV and sounds like original research. If it's taken from somewhere, it needs citations and sources. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 02:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening credits

It seems that there should be some discussion (probably under the section about the "look" of the film) about the innovative opening credits sequence, with the collage of film and still images, since this was very innovative at the time. The man who did them went on to do the opening credits on a number of other films. I would argue it is an important feature of the film. ---Charles 19:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Envy & Wrath section edits from 72.138.74.56

Would any other users care to offer opinions on this repeated edit offered by 72.138.74.56? I'm not sure what the user's reasoning is for preferring it since the user is not offering any edit summaries. Regardless, though, I think there have been enough reverts back and forth that the time has come to try to reach a community consensus as to whether it's an improvement. Mwelch 05:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The version that you prefer is, IMO, better for the page. Here's a suggested rewrite (changes are bolded):

When they arrive at Doe's prearranged location, dry and desert-like with rows of electrical transmission towers, a delivery van soon arrives. Somerset stops the van several hundred yards from their location and confronts the driver, who says that he was to deliver a box to their location. The box is addressed to Mills, but Somerset decides to open it. He recoils from the box in horror, and yells to Mills, who is struggling to ignore Doe's comments, to put his gun down and to not come near the box. As Somerset runs back to Mills and Doe, Doe reveals to Mills that he had visited Tracy after Mills left for work and tried to "play husband." The independently wealthy Doe envied the fruits of a common man's life and is thus guilty of ENVY. Doe then discloses that he killed Tracy and her unborn baby, and implies that the box contains Tracy's severed head; he also taunts Mills when he realizes that Mills was unaware of her pregnancy. Enraged, horrified, and grief-stricken, Mills dramatically contemplates killing Doe. Somerset tries to stop him, arguing that Doe's revelations only stand if he is killed for his sin of Envy and if Mills is the one who kills him and so becomes the embodiment of WRATH. "If you kill him, he will win," says Somerset. However, the distraught and emotional Mills shoots Doe in the head, empties his gun into Doe's body, and from the viewpoint of their helicopter watching them is shown walking away from Somerset and Doe's corpse in the direction of the box.

In the final scene, Mills is driven away in a police cruiser, while the captain assures Somerset that Mills will be taken care of. Somerset offers that if Mills needs anything, Somerset will want to help. However, given Somerset's impending retirement, the captain is unsure how he would contact Somerset if need be. The captain asks, "Where are you going to be?" Somerset wearily replies, "I'll be around," suggesting that he might not go through with his long-awaited retirement.

The film concludes when, in voice-over, with sirens wailing in the background, Somerset explains why: "Ernest Hemingway once wrote: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."

What do you think? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 13:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well . . . as I've already mentioned in my edit summary, I do not like that wording of "might" that you've left there, given that the statement about Somerset's retirement has already been softened to say "suggesting". His suggestion is not that he might not retire; his suggestion is that he will not retire. If he was suggesting he might not retire, then he would have said "I might be around," and, "I might just decide that I agree with the second part." But he didn't offer any such equivocation on either point. So I really don't like that "might" being there.
But hey . . . if I'm the only one who feels that way, I'll back off.
As for the rest, I'd change the wording just a little bit regarding Doe's initial revelation about killing Tracy.
I'm almost certain that Doe does not mention the baby at that moment. The first time he mentions it (and thus the first time Mills finds about the baby) is after Somerset has completed his run back and rejoined the two of them. I'm just about sure of that because when Doe does mention it ("She begged for her life . . . and the life of the child within her" or something like that), he observes Mills' reaction, then realizes that Mills was unaware Tracy was pregnant and then turns to Somerset and says, "He didn't know." So Somerset was definitely already back with them at the time the revelation was made, not still with the box, nor still back running toward them.
So maybe something like (bold indicates changes from what you proposed above):
Doe then discloses that he killed Tracy and took her severed head as a "souvenir". As Somerset returns, Mills comprehends Doe's implication. Desperate for a reason not to believe Doe's claims, Mills repeatedly demands that Somerset reveal what was in the box. Somerset's refusal to directly answer the question leaves Mills with little doubt as to the contents of the box and the truth of Doe's words. Doe then taunts Mills when he realizes that Mills was unaware of Tracy's pregnancy.
How does that seem? (I'm fine with the rest of your modifications above, and I guess I'll grumble and grit my teeth over the "might" thing.) Mwelch 02:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I like your edits a little better. As far as the "might" goes, that's not that big an issue to me. Saying "...suggesting he will not go through with his long-awaited retirement" is fine with me; as you said, "suggesting" is enough of an implication. One thing that just occured to me is that it might work better to use Doe's actual words in the sentence about killing Tracy:
Doe discloses that he killed Tracy, then adds, "I took a souvenir...her pretty head."
Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Excellent idea. I think that works very well. Mwelch 20:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DVD cover

Should the cover of the 2-disc Special Edition be used in the article along with the original DVD cover, to show the contrast between the titles? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 18:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Murder of Wrath (spoilers)

All seven of the Deadly Sins was covered by the film, but only six of them were punished by death. The gluttenous man was force fed until he exploded; the greedy man was bled to death from a wound he was made to cut; the slothful man was tortured for a year, but kept alive in agony; the lustful woman had her genitals sliced up with a knife; the proud woman was marred, suiciding out of shame; and the envious man was shot by the very man he admired. As John Doe put it "every sin was turned against the sinner". But what of wrath? Detective Mills had his wife and unborn child murdered. This was his primary motivation for killing Doe, but was it also his punishment? Was the punishment of wrath to have your love ones die, while you remain alive in brooding hatred? Is wrath itself a punishment? Either way, Mills was the only sinner to remain alive. This needs to be adressed in the analysis and discussion of the article. And more importantly John Doe's own article. It is a fundemental aspect in interpreting his "masterpiece", and understanding him as one of literature's most interesting villains. I have 3 theories on the matter: (1) that living in wrath is a greater punishment than death; (2) that Mill's was punished by the death of his loved ones; or (3) Mill's will be so shattered that he will commit suicide. I think the third theory is the most likely. --Dark_Wolf101 11:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There is also an unlikely fourth theory that mills will be given the death sentence.22:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, the prostitute wasn't the lustful one, the client was. So, really, there's two sinners left alive? 64.126.90.94 10:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As you say yourself, the sinner of Sloth was also alive after they found him. he was admitted to the intensive care unit. They only mention that he was technically alive, if you can call it that, and bright lights would make him go into shock. --Edwardstirling (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Innocence of Lust?

Was the prostitute really a sinner, at least in the extreme circumstances that John Doe's other victims were? She was killed by having her genitals sliced up (from the inside) by the blade of a knife, wielded by her client at the orders of Doe. She was killed because she commited the sin of lust. But ironically, it was her client, the man who paid to have sex with her, that was lustful. She was, in effect, only doing her job, and it is doubtful that she harboured any physical attractions to her clients. Yet, she was selected by Doe for brutal murder. This lends credibility to the idea that Doe possessed a level of mysogonism; blaming the woman for luring innocent men into her lair to be corrupted. This aspect of Doe's killings should probably be explored more in Doe's own article, rather the wider "Se7en" article. But it is worth consideration. --Dark_Wolf101 11:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Still, he didn't seem to show any other sign of misogyny apart from this, and even then it is debatable whether his act was truly sexist. Although he did seem to blame the prostitute personally for tempting men, near the end of the film he referred to her as a "disease spreading whore", I don't recall him showing any hatred of women in general.66.24.235.78 02:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Power lines

In the Religious imagery section, there are two references to power lines, yet no explanation as to what the religious symbolism of those power lines is? Jscarle 03:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that's referring to the shape of the electrical towers themselves. It's a bit of a stretch in either case. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 13:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keeping Original Research Out

SpartanPhalanx8588, I've reverted your addition,[4] and you have put it back. Your entry is entirely speculative and original research. You have no citation for your material. Your own words (generally accepted, just about anywhere, that policemen, regardless of the particular agency they work for, will look out for and "do the right thing for") are weasel words. If you review these guidelines, and still believe your entry is helpful, please bring it to this talk page. Thanks. The undertow 04:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I've moved sections that contained unsourced text that was also original research and placed it here until it can be sourced.--J.D. (talk) 15:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religious imagery

 This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.
Please improve the article by adding references. See the talk page for details. (February 2008)
Paradise Lost
Paradise Lost

The movie is rife with religious imagery, specifically crosses which are prominently displayed in many parts of the movie:

  • The power lines where the film's climax occurs.
  • The large illuminated cross above John Doe's bed in his apartment.
  • The power lines in front of the GLUTTONY murder's apartment.
  • With the exception of the desert scene at the end, and a brief moment when Mills and Somerset are riding in a van, it is always raining, as in the Third Circle of Hell.
  • Near the discovery of LUST a heavy wind is blowing as in the Second Circle of Hell, where the overly lustful were constantly blown about by a heavy wind.
  • The GLUTTONY victim was forced to lie face down in food while he ate continuously, as in the Third Circle of Hell where those guilty of Gluttony are forced to lie face down in mud, in continuous cold rain while eating their own excrement.
  • SLOTH was lying in a wet bed, probably with urine or excrement, but in the Fifth Circle of Hell the Slothful are forced to lie constantly underneath the surface of the Styx while the Wrathful fight each other constantly on the surface.
  • The PRIDE victim appears to be posed in a crucifixion gesture.

John Doe also makes several biblical references himself, notably to Sodom and Gomorrah. There are also several angelic statues prominently displayed.

[edit] Expanded universe

The recent comic-book adaptations of the film by Zenescope Entertainment give some insight into Doe's childhood and upbringing.

In the third issue, Sloth, it is revealed that, as a child, Doe suffered from excruciating cluster headaches, which were treated with a botched attempt at electroshock therapy.

The fourth issue, Lust, shows that Doe's mother was a religious fanatic, obsessed with sin and eternal damnation. At one point during his school years, Doe began to develop carnal desires for a sexually active girl in his class, which his mother condemned. His mother became infuriated upon finding Doe masturbating in the bathroom and severely beat him. Doe would later witness his mother making love to his equally God-fearing uncle.

The fifth issue, Pride, shows Doe, now a teenager, becoming besotted by a pleasant young girl in his religious-education class. At this stage in his life, Doe has begun the habit of writing journals describing his every thought and action. He writes that his feelings toward this girl are pure and that she is nothing like the girl he lusted over years before. He offers to help the girl with her revision and invites her to his house. Upon entering his room, however, they encounter John's mother, now a violent alcoholic. She is reading John's journals and mockingly reads them out to the girl.

The girl runs away, with John's mother physically attacking him and telling him that no matter what he does, he will always be a sinner and will inevitably go to Hell.

The sixth issue, Envy, reveals that aside from his hair and fingertips, John also went as far as removing his teeth and genitals in order to avoid identification through dental records and seminal samples. The issue also explains that John used to serve in the United States Marine Corps and that he was married and had a son who died as an infant.

The final issue, Wrath shows that John's mother committed suicide by burning herself to death, using John's childhood possessions to feed the flames.

[edit] Trivia

preserved from article proper due to reasons on WP:PLOT as well as each item being unsourced for two months. Items should be merged into article only if appropriate and sourced. 74.134.255.99 05:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Screenwriter Andrew Kevin Walker reveals his source for the name of Lt. William Somerset during the scene in which Somerset and Mills research library books. One of the books they explicitly mention is Of Human Bondage, the best known work of William Somerset Maugham.
  • Kevin Spacey refused billing for the movie, and his name does not appear in the opening credits. He claimed that he does not want people to wait to see him in the movie, preferring his part in the film to be a surprise to add suspense.
  • R. Lee Ermey, who plays the police captain, originally auditioned for the part of John Doe.
  • Dr. Robert Rey of Dr. 90210 fame was the medical adviser on this film.
  • The scenes in the apartment complex where Mills and Somerset first encounter John Doe were shot on location at the run-down yet historically significant Alexandria Hotel in downtown Los Angeles. During its heyday, the hotel was a favorite haunt of Charlie Chaplin among other Hollywood notables. Somerset is shown leaving the Chester Williams Building.
  • The injury (broken arm) suffered by Mills in the pursuit of Doe was added to the story after Brad Pitt injured himself attempting a stunt in the scene.
  • In a deleted scene from the PRIDE sequence, Doe wrote in blood "I did not kill her. I gave her a choice" on a wall leading to the bedroom where the victim was found.
  • One version of the script contained a few scenes following the final confrontation between the detectives and John Doe. In one, Somerset is in the hospital recovering from being shot by Mills and the captain delivers him a letter from Mills which reads, "You were right. You were right about everything."
  • While shooting for the GLUTTONY scenes, Fincher used live cockroaches. Because of this the set had to be raised on to stilts and wrapped in plastic to ensure none would escape.
  • Shortly before shooting John Doe, a single flash of Mills' wife's face appears on screen. David Fincher later used this technique in Fight Club, which also starred Pitt.
  • R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe was originally offered the role of John Doe, before the role went to Kevin Spacey.
  • Somerset's badge number is 714, the same badge number as Sgt. Joe Friday in the television series Dragnet.
  • David Mills fires his gun seven times in the movie: once in the scene when he talks with William Somerset, and six times into John Doe. While chasing John Doe through the apartments, he does not fire his gun.
  • Other uses of the number 7 abound in the film including all of the buildings in the opening scene starting with 7, and the delivery in the movie's climax being scheduled for 7:07 p.m. The movie spans seven days, Monday through Sunday. Also, at the beginning of the movie, Somerset mentions that he has 7 days before he retires.
  • Though Kevin Spacey did a large amount of research for his role in the film, he said Anthony Hopkins' performance in The Silence of the Lambs also inspired his own acting.
  • The closing credits of the movie (over which David Bowie's song "The Hearts Filthy Lesson" can be heard) scroll down from the top of the screen, the reverse of typical credit movement (scrolling up from the bottom).
  • At the time in which the movie takes place, the list of flagged library books Somerset obtains from his FBI contact violated civil liberties and due process (which is why the exchange of the information takes place secretly and Mills later bribes a witness to construct a story about how they found Doe's apartment). After 2002, the USA PATRIOT Act made it legal for agencies to compile such lists to investigate suspects.
  • The words "Bardach County Jail" appear on the back of the killer's orange jumpsuit. Elinor Bardach is the movie's costume supervisor.
  • David Fincher appears at the end of the foot chase where John Doe catches Mills in an alley at gunpoint from Mills' point-of-view. Fincher is holding the gun wearing the trenchcoat.
  • There is a deleted scene from the opening of the film with Somerset purchasing a house in the country. He uses his switchblade to cut a swatch of wallpaper. This is what he shows Tracy in the dinner sequence, which makes little sense without the deleted scene in place.
  • New Line developed a serial killer screenplay called Solace which they intended to turn into a pseudo-sequel[citation needed]. This idea was abandoned.
  • It is raining throughout the course of the movie until the killer turns himself in.
  • This film was #26 on Bravo's 100 Scariest Movie Moments.

[edit] Section on John Doe

Hello, I'm wondering why John Doe has his own section, with his own infobox on the side, and particularly why the section contains info about him from the socalled "Extended Universe". The main characters in the film (Mills and Somerset) do not have such a section. This looks like it would be better suited in its own article John Doe (Se7en character) Spebudmak 20:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed this section from the main article and placed it here as it is unsourced and contains Original research.--J.D. (talk) 18:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] John Doe

Seven character
John Doe
Birth name Jonathan Doe
Gender Male
Race Caucasian
M.O. Torture reflecting the victim's major sin
Occupation(s) Photographer, self appointed religious enforcer
Current status: Deceased

The viewer is told comparatively little about the character of John Doe. The police captain describes Doe as "independently wealthy, well-educated, and totally insane," but when Somerset tries to tease any personal information out of him, Doe claims that who he is "doesn't matter." Doe has created a completely blank identity for himself; there are no clues to his real identity in his apartment, his bank account was started with cash and he has no employment records; a scene during the opening credits shows him blanking out a picture of a young boy's face with a black marker. Doe routinely and painstakingly uses razor blades to slice off his fingerprints to protect his identity. Doe is only really defined by his crimes and his religious mania, as apparent in his apartment. His apartment, and particularly the 2000 notebooks he has compiled over the years, give the biggest clues to who he is.

Doe's apartment is a shrine to his obsession with sin and revulsion at the world. His door carries multiple bolts and locks, his windows are blacked out, and there are religious icons and drawings everywhere. There is an air of asceticism about it, with his basic bed and the red neon cross above it. Doe seems to be a manic obsessive (he collects aspirin bottles and he details every part of his life in his notebooks). The list of flagged books Somerset and Mills procure includes St. Thomas Aquinas, who wrote on the seven deadly sins in his Summa Theologica. Doe also quotes from Paradise Lost. These domestic observations are contrasted to his writings on sin. Doe is revolted by the self-glorification of a sinful world. He believes that the human race in the divine scheme of things is a pathetic shadow of what we could have been, if we had not Fallen (obviously referring to the original sin of temptation that Adam and Eve gave into).

[edit] Religious Imagery

I removed the Pride section from the religious imagery article since the crucifix form is ridiculously simple and almost certainly unintentionl. Furhtermore, the whole article seems to be pretty out there. Unless there is something to back all of it up, I suggest it be removed. Dancemotron 08:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Kevin Spacey

I know that he didn't want billing in the opening credits or in the promotional stuff, but why isn't he mentioned AT ALL in the actual article? It's a spoiler, yes, but the article does give away the ending of the movie AND Spacey did receive billing at the end credits, so his name should be in there somewhere.--Tao of tyler 09:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gluttony

In the version I watched, the guy "punished" for gluttony was forced to cut "one pound of flesh, no more, no less" from himself. Or am i remembering something else?71.183.69.18 (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The lawyer was killed that way for greed. Gluttony was the first murder they came across, the one who was force fed to death. -- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comic book

Should the section which discusses Doe's development in the comic book be moved to the section dealing with the comic book? It just seems off having two different parts that deal with it, especially since the section on Doe goes more in-depth on the comic than the actual comic section. Thoughts? Thee darcy (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move made. Appears as though Se7en is more of a marketing title than anything else. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 09:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Se7en → Seven (film) — The film is NOT universally known as se7en (see poster on the Wikipedia page itself!) and despite what IMDB calls the film, half the posters/art on its site say Seven (with the other half Se7en). "Seven" is the far more common name - simply do a Google search for "Brad Pitt Seven" vs. "Brad Pitt Se7en" - and consider many Google hits for "Se7en" are partially due to Wikipedia's current name, and would be reversed if this title were changed. When the film is released under two different spellings, the "English" spelling should be used. Thus Seven (film) is the correct title. —Bssc81 (talk) 06:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support - as nom. Happy to discuss further if necessary, but as per the above, Seven (film) is the right title here. Bssc81 (talk) 06:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The DVD cover, box art, and actual disk all refer to the title as Se7en. [5] -- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 21:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Depends on the dvd; this one uses "Seven". PC78 (talk) 22:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    • So does the one we have on the Wikipedia site. "Se7en" is unpronouncable other than "Seven". As such, we should be able to surmise that "Se7en" is just a style that was used, unlike Macy*s (rather than Macy's). Bssc81 (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm going to go ahead and change my opinion and support the move, I've seen the light! -- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Since the film is somewhat inconsistantly referred to as both Seven and Se7en, we should default to the proper English. PC78 (talk) 22:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:MOSTM ("Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words") especially since the "7" is not universally used. — AjaxSmack 23:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • 7upport standard English. If it is used at all let us follow that standard, even if it is not universal (or even if it is not most common) Whydontyoucallme dantheman (talk) 01:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose (this specific move). Should be "SE7EN" or "seven" (note specific capitalization) and not "Seven" or "Se7en", since the film is using "7" as a capital "v". (see comment below) —MJBurrage(T•C) 14:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - given MOSTM and the fact that the usage of "Se7en" is not universal, it's a common sense move. EJF (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:
  • Check out the above discussion as well. As you can see, there were a number of people opposed to Se7en, on the basis that IMDB is not the final arbiter in these matters, Se7en is NOT the unequivocal certain title of the film (again, look at all the promotional material for the film including on Wikipedia), and the common name of the film is "Seven", not "Sesevenen". And finally, "Se7en" is just a stylistic representation which is generally rejected on Wikipedia (note TIME redirects to Time (magazine), and thirtysomething's title is capitalized as Thirtysomething (TV series).Bssc81 (talk) 19:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Let the film itself decide – From looking at the promotional material, I see "seven" (no capitals) used on one poster, with that poster being used for some DVD covers. More common seems to be "SE7EN" (no lowercase) on other posters and DVD releases. So it looks like the film itself never uses "Se7en" or "Seven", and I would guess that they are using "7" as the capital of "v", so "Se7en" is as incorrect as "SeVen" and looks odd in part because of the taller "7" mixed in with lowercase letters.
    If one watches the film, what is the spelling used when the title is displayed on screen? That should be the title here if technically possible. —MJBurrage(T•C) 14:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
    • What you're suggesting is in violation of Wikipedia naming conventions, specifically WP:MOSTM. You should review that page as it addresses what you're referring to. Bssc81 (talk) 00:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Disambiguation

Shouldn't Se7en be redirected to Se7en (disambiguation)? 21:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Probably. Or Se7en (singer) could just become Se7en with a "for the film, see Seven (film)" at the top. Or maybe Se7en (singer) should become Seven (singer) and have them all redirect to Seven (disambiguation) *head asplode*-- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The singer uses 'Se7en' on his album covers and promotional posters, so your first suggestion would be more appropriate (if everyone else is okay with that). 75.18.118.95 (talk) 00:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, that was the problem with this article. What you suggest violates the WP:MOSTM.
  • "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official"" and
  • "Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words"
-- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)