Talk:SETI/Archive 1

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I removed:

"however, that concern is rendered moot by an examination of recent history. Television and radio signals have been broadcast into space for decades, and coherent signals are easily differentiated from random noise."

From "Is "active" SETI dangerous?" The above statement is simply not true. Our terrestrial and satellite signals are weak enough to be completely masked by background radiation within a few light years distance from earth.


I removed the SETI Institute logo. The SETI institute is a well known SETI advocacy group and does conduct SETI observations, but is not "SETI" nor the driving force behind SETI any more than the Planetary Society or the SETI League is. It's akin to putting the American Lung Association logo at the top of a page on "Medicine."

I separated the SERENDIP section from the "Sentinal, META, and BETA" and expanded the desciption of SERENDIP up to the present day. I've also moved the SETI@home section into the SERENDIP section as it is an outshoot of SERENDIP.

I would like to see more mention of international SETI programs. Also wondered about whether it should be mentioned that NSF is funding ATA instrument development (and other SETI related instrument development).

User:SETIGuy Feb 13, 2006


I added a paragraph to Early Work to mention the Big Ear project which actually started in 1963 (not 1985 or 1975 as others have suggested). I am a volunteer (though inactive, for the most part, due to available time) with the group that operated the Big Ear telescope.

Added a small section about the Wow! signal (linking to the larger article) after Early Work and prior to the Arecibo Message since that is when it occured chronologically.

I removed the information about Big Ear from SERENDIP, Sentinel, META, and BETA due to its irrelevance and inaccuracy.

I added External links to the former Big Ear website and the current NAAPO website. -- ChrisBianchi

I removed:

Most mainstream scientists ignore the SETI project. Many of these skeptics regard it as pseudoscience.

I don't think SETI is ignored any more than other scientific projects. Furthermore, the second sentence is a non sequitur. First we are talking about mainstream scientists, then about "these skeptics"? There are SETI-skeptics and probably scientists who think it is pseudoscience (although most skeptics simply regard it as a waste of time), but this description is hardly accurate. If you want to add a discussion of SETI-skepticism, please do so, with proper references. --Eloquence

The article says:

"Above 10 gigahertz, radio noise from water and oxygen atoms in our atmosphere tends to also become a source of interference. Even if alien worlds have substantially different atmospheres, quantum noise effects make it difficult to build a receiver that can pick up signals above 100 gigahertz."

The sudden jump to mentioning 100GHz seems odd. Should it be 10GHz? If it's right, it might help to reword the article to make it clear it isn't a mistake.

Seconded: Especially because the sentence is composed such that you would expect 100 to be wrong. "... Even if ..." implies that we're still looking at the same limits.
(81.83.43.193 12:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC))
ANSWER: 100 GHz is correct for quantum noise. It's the point where the equivalent noise temperature T of the quantum noise (hv/k) starts becoming significant compared to other noise sources. (h is Plank's constant, v is "nu", the photon frequency and k is Boltzman's constant).

some notes to add

Interstellar communication is likely to be narrow-beam, point-to-point, to make it energy-efficient; and it is therefore very difficult to intercept. Signals are likely to be spread-spectrum for noise immunity; which will make them indetectable to us unless we have the spreading sequence.

So we will not find them; they will find us.

There are between 3,000 and 10,000 stars within 80 light years radius. .Y. of these having planets with liquid water.

What is the likelihood of a civilization if it exists, being a million years more technologically advanced than us? VERY HIGH . calculate this 10 billion years 4.5 billion years of 2nd generation stars? -> is our sun among the first 2nd generation stars? probably not. -> how many older? how many younger? distribution?

After a million years of nanotechnology, do they still need water? unlikely. What makes us think they would even be recognisable to us as life forms? Perhaps they are non-corporeal, and could inhabit our computer systems, create crop circles, control the weather, etc.?

These really are pseudoscience ideas. All SETI is doing is looking for a non-random (i.e. patterned) radio signal that does not come from Earth. I see no problem with that; it makes no assumptions about what kind of life is being looked for. All it assumes is that they use radio waves as a form of communication. thefamouseccles

There's no way of providing a falsifiable hypothesis for SETI. If extraterrestrial life does not exist, there is no way of proving that unless we go to EVERY planet in the universe and check it. However, if we find so much as one instance of life, that proves the hypothesis. Perhaps the best way of going about the thing is to use a null hypothesis: namely, "There is no extraterrestrial life in the universe that uses radio waves for communication."

That has problems too. We currently lack the technology to "eavesdrop" on mundane radio transmissions. For us to recieve it, it would have to be a pretty intense signal. It is likely that future technological improvements would allow us to recieve far weaker signals than we can today, but that would allow us to sample at most our own galaxy. The difficulties involved in eavesdropping on signals from other galaxies wouldn't allow us to make any conclusions about the universe as a whole.--RLent 17:05, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

WOW! Signal

Information about the WOW! Signal from 1977 might be useful/interesting on this page. It's not currently mentioned anywhere on Wikipedia.

I added the "Wow! signal" entry in Wikipedia, but there is a factual error on this page, the "Big Ear" project started 1975, not 1985. Otherwise it would be ridiculous that they detected a signal 8 years before the project actually started... -- Ylai 19:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I wrote the original article for my website that this WKPD article is based on and tracked down data on the Big Ear telescope. Yep, that's right, it was built in the 1960s for a wideband sky survey, and converted to a SETI project in 1973. The WOW! signal showed up on 15 August 1977. I corrected this in my own article, which will be posted on http://www.vectorsite.net/taseti.html NLT 1 Jan 2006. I didn't modify the WKPD article; I hate to fiddle around with other folks' text, it seems rude.

Interesting radio telescope, BTW, an altitude-only transit instrument designed for surveys and built on the cheap. Incidentally, although all my stuff is public domain and I don't mind its use, it might be polite to credit the source -- the WKPD article's much changed from my own document but I can still see my own fingerprints all over it. Since I don't edit WKPD articles I will simply leave that as a polite request. MrG (Greg Goebel)

Marc Abel, 31 Jan 2006: There are a few inaccuracies and numerous omissions in the above discussion of Big Ear. I was on the staff from 1983 to 1988, took a break, and have been "back" since 2003 (although the antenna is demolished). Big Ear did several SETI projects; the first was an 8-channel receiver with an 8-channel chart recorder only. The second was a 50 channel digital search; it ran from 1977 to 1985 when the acquisition computer failed. There have been a couple more since then, but I wasn't a participant in those. We need a lot more here.

Intro

This article doesn't seem to contain any kind of concise definition of what SETI actually is. This should go in the first paragraph instead of leaping right into the discussion of it as an alternative to interstellar travel. --Mumblingmynah 22:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


unsupported speculation creeping in

line 39 contains a seemingly superfluous note about "ruining their planet in the process" or some other such after the more factual statement that the power output necessary for detection over large distances could be a few thousand times larger than the current earth power output. This line feels "squishy" since the effect of power production on a planet is technology dependent. For instance, is fusion of tritium in ocean water included in the calculation? How about massive solar grids in space, closer to the sun? The list of technological fixes to the power problem could go on and on -- which is why the "ruining ..." statement should be expunged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by cnmirose (talk • contribs) 13:54, 20 October 2005

I agreee. I'm taking that phrase out. Bubba73 (talk), 06:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Two questions

In the article it says:

Very small stars provide so little heat and warmth that only planets in very close orbits around them would not be frozen solid, and in such close orbits these planets would be tidally "locked" to the star, with one side of the planet perpetually baked and the other perpetually frozen.

If I'm thinking correctly, that would imply that the planets wouldn't rotate, right? If so, is it correct that they wouldn't rotate? Rbarreira 00:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. They rotate at such a pace so they always point the same face towards the sun. This is what the moon does relative to us, so we only ever see one side of it. See synchronous rotation and tidal locking (which should probably be linked from the SETI article). --Robert Merkel 04:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Table of contents aligned to the right?

A user has modified the article in order for the TOC to be aligned to the right. Is this a good idea? What justification is there for this? I think it should be discussed since it's not very standard (despite there existing a template for this, which has been the subject of controversy in the past too). Rbarreira 18:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I did this. Using either Mozilla, Firefox or IE, without the right alignment, I get a few lines of text, then a tall thin box of contents, next to big white blank area. The user has to scroll down to see the overview. This does not seem very useful, unless your only goal is to make sure that SETI stood for what you thought it did.

When you float the TOC right, when using Firefox the overview flows into the region to the left of the TOC, and you can read the first few paragraphs of the TOC. IE does not fill the space to the right as well, but at least it puts the TOC and the first paragraph side by side, and you can see the top of the overview. Both of these seem better than the vertical alignment, and the Firefox layout in particular is much nicer.

I did not know this was controversial. I saw it used as a template on another page I was watching, thought it was better in all cases, and so put it in. If there are cases where it is worse, please feel free to take it out. LouScheffer 20:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Criticism and Intelligent Design

The Intelligent Design section states that the critera for science is being tightened to diqualify ID as science. That's not true. It's ID itself that can't qualify as science. The same section also suggests that SETI is not falsifiable, and so repeats what was said in the section directly above. I wonder if this section is necessary at all. Maver1ck 08:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Skeptical Inquirer issue

The current issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine (put out by CSICOP) has a series of 4 articles on SETI. I recommend it highly to editors of this article. The articles aren't at all "skeptical" in the sense of "aw, c'mon, there's no such thing as aliens". Rather, the first article takes a stance of "we've been looking for a long time and found nothing; maybe we need to lower our expectations," and the following 3 articles are largely rebuttals to this viewpoint. One quote I particularly liked (paraphrasing):

The Drake equation shouldn't be used as if it had predictive value. It is only of use as a way to organize our ignorance, so we can have a rational discussion.

KarlBunker 18:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge of "SETT"

Nothing much exists in the SETT article to merge, other than the term "SETT" itself. A google search returned 105 hits for "search for extraterrestrial technology" and 26 for "search for extra-terrestrial technology." It seems to me that that makes the term "SETT" non-notable and not worth even mentioning in this article. But that's just my $.02. KarlBunker 19:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


References section

The References section currently appears to be blank (apart from a <refences />); references are currently given as URLs inline with the text. What's going on there? Either the references section wants to be removed, or it wants to be filled. Personally, I would go through the article moving all citations to footnotes (and am willing to do this if people want / have no objections). Mike Peel 14:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Ideally, the inline references should be converted into footnotes. This is actually fairly easy; at its simplest, basically just need to put <ref> and </ref> tags around the inline URLs. The "References" section at the end of the article will be automagically filled in. The best/most thorough way to do things would be to put each web link into "cite web" format, in addition to adding the <ref> and </ref> tags. See WP:FOOTNOTES and Template:Cite web and Wikipedia:Citing sources/example style KarlBunker 14:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've started the process of converting the references; will continue doing so over the next few days. I've removed the reference for 'Mediocrity' ("Indistinguishable from Magic" - this article mentions "Shklovskii's and Sagan's Assumption of Mediocrity", but is hardly a decent reference for it. Mike Peel 15:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Optical SETI experiments -- Fourier analysis?

I found this sentence from Optical SETI experiments dubious, could someone provide a citation or rewrite (specifically the bold text)?

However, according to Fourier analysis, emitting light in narrow pulses results in a broad spectrum of emission, with the frequencies becoming higher as the pulse width becomes narrower, and an interstellar communications system could use pulsed lasers.
At first glance this looks plain wrong. Does it intend to say that after analysis a pulsed laser exhibits a broad spectrum? Does a photon's "frequency", hence its energy, change when the laser pulses? -213.219.187.253 09:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
It's correct - this is also known as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. If the photon's time of emission is determined with high precision, its energy (and thus its frequency) can only be measured with low precision (and vice versa). More quantitatively, δE*δt >= h/(4*pi) and, because of E = h*f, δf*δt >= 1/(4*pi); E denotes energy, f denotes frequency, δ denotes uncertainty in the variable at its right. Icek 09:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW - anybody tried checking if some stars are emitting light in pulses ? Any project references ?
It's already described and linked in the article - a group at Harvard university is doing just that[1]. Icek 06:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Water Hole

I expected to see a link somewhere in the article to the radio frequency band dubbed the "Water Hole", as it is considered a likely place to detect communication. The article is clearly in progress, so I was loathe to insert the link and subject myself, but I do believe it should be included considering the direct relevance to the topic. SINsApple 01:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael Crichton

The article reads, "Science fiction writer and global warming skeptic Michael Crichton". Stating that he is a global warming skeptic almost seems like an ad hominem attack to me. Why are we bringing up someone's opinion of global warming in an article on SETI? -- Fantomx11 20:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC) article on SETI? -- Fantomx11 20:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. I see no relevance to including that remark here. Crichton is much better known for beign a science fiction writer than for anything else. That description, plus the wikilink to his article, is sufficient both for the purposes of identifying whom we are talking about and also to allow the ready to learn more about him, if they choose. Johntex\talk 20:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Because in matters of science he is an idiot paid by interested parties to influence public opinion. On the other hand, in matters of fiction he is a very weak writer. Simple, right? Sci-fi writer.


Uncited item built on false premise

I removed the following from the page:

The cost of this prodigious processing time is not to be overlooked: over $1,000,000,000 of electricity has been used in the effort, making SETI@home amongst the most costly failed scientific experiments undertaken. This hidden cost is almost invariably overlooked in understanding the value and risk of SETI as an enterprise.

In addition to being uncited, there are a number of false logical premises behind this statement that need some discussion before it goes back. First, the assumption is that none of those computers would have been on if it wasn't for SETI@Home. Since it was a screensaver, I find this unlikely. Second, the statement that it is a failed experiment is contentious. First, it is a project that is in progress, and second, a negative result is hardly a failure. It's part of the scientific method. With the above in mind, I strongly urge against re-adding the text to the article. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I've verified again the material and i agree w/ you. It fails to pass the NPOV test. Thanks for the note. -- Szvest 21:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

===SETI seems valuble as a scientific exercise, however, what makes us so sure we want to let "the others" know where we are. Should the native americans have searched for the europeans in the 15th century? An intelligence with great control over mass and energy might incidentally harm us, independent of their aims. Does our planet have anything besides art and zoo specimens, that isn't readily available around the universe? 209.79.199.63 06:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Lugosh

You seem to be missing the point. SETI is simpyl searching for signals. By detecting these signals, we're not goign to tell anyone we're here as far as we know. Of course, if we choose to respond to the signal we may very well do so. However since this hasn't occured yet, it seems wise to wait until it does. Also we have been sending signals in to space for quite a long time. Finally, it's a bit silly to assume an intelligence we detect will have greater control over mass and energy then us. When they sent the signal, they could have been behind us in terms of tech. As I've stated, we've been sending signals for quite a while. Of course, they would have sent the signal a very long time ago so most likely they would either be extinct or significantly more advanced by now but then again, by the time they receive any reply we send, we would be similarly likely be either extinct or much further. Which one us will be the most advanced is hard to say. In any case, it doesn't seem much point worrying too much about it because most likely they will eventually find us whatever we do and if they have ill-will well tough luck... Nil Einne 15:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced and confusing statements

SETI is not generally viewed by scientists as a trivial task. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, is 100,000 light years across and contains approximately a hundred billion stars. Searching the entire sky for some far-away and faint signal is an exhausting exercise. A number of assumptions are needed for SETI to be feasible.
A basic assumption of SETI is that of "Mediocrity": the idea that humanity is not privileged in the cosmos but in a sense "typical" or "medium" when compared with other intelligent species.[citation needed] This would mean that humanity has sufficient similarities with other intelligent beings that communications would be mutually desirable and understandable. If this basic assumption of Mediocrity is correct, and other intelligent species are present in any number in the galaxy at our technological level or above, then communications between the two worlds should be inevitable.
Another assumption is that the vast majority of known life-forms in our galaxy are based on carbon chemistries, as all life-forms are on Earth. While it is possible that life could be based around elements other than carbon, carbon is well known for the unusually wide variety of molecules that can be formed around it.
The presence of liquid water is also a useful assumption, as it is a common molecule and provides an excellent environment for the formation of complicated carbon-based molecules that could eventually lead to the emergence of life.

I'm rather confused about the above which is largely unsourced. As far as I know, SETI is simply searching for transmissions from a intelligent life form. So I don't quite get the relevance of all of the above. The issue of selectings suns like ours is relevant so I didn't brint it up but I don't quite get why the rest is. AFAIK we aren't selecting planets and or places with liquid water (since we don't have yet have this info to any useful degree). It's mostly just a random search. I would assume there is some targeted but if any of the above are used in the targetting of the searches it isn't explained other then the sun bit. SETI is primarily (at the moment) looking for a non-random/background noise signal so even if we can't decode the 'signal' (if it is a signal) it's still a significant find. Whether or not a lifeform is carbon based, or needs liquid water, or mediocrity applies this seems irrelevant. So far, we've found few signals that look like they can't be explained by known natural causes. A signal will still be a signal. The only potential issue I can see is whether concentrating on the wavelength we're concentrating on makes sense to all potential lifeforms (n.b. I use the wavelength to refer to the entire EM spectrum not just radio)Nil Einne 15:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

NB On consideration I failed perhaps to point out if we can't decode the signal then we can't actually show we've found ETI. However, I still think the above is confusing in that currently SETI is primarily focused in finding something that appears non-natural and therefore is probably an ETI even if the ultimate goal is to show we've found an ETI which requires actually decoding the signal which is most likely to be possible if the ETI is similar to us Nil Einne 15:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Silly comment in need of source

Given the limitations of the speed of light for message transmission, no reply would be possible before the year 52,174 (approximately) and hence has been dismissed by some as a publicity stunt.

The above needs a source, especially since sounds silly (to me anyway). Anyone with any understanding of basic physics and astronomy should know any communication to an alien species is always going to have a very, very high latency. If you're saying don't communicate because you won't get a reply for ages you're basically saying don't communicate. But we might as well try arrives back here or whatever but saying it's a publicity stunt is just silly to me. Perhaps we will be extinct by the time a reply but we might as well try communicating and hope that someone, somewhere will receive our signal. We're not likely to be able to talk to an alien species like this:

  • yo, sup' man humans?
  • Well like you know in the United States the Democrats took control the Senate and Congress and Bush is pissed. And North Korea says they're going to go back to the sixy party talks. And oh yeah. Israelis and the Palestinians are still blowing each other up.
  • so nothing new then man. same ol, same ol here to, you know what I'm saying?

Nil Einne 15:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Democrats and Republicans are only different parties for that kind of retarded American. Evidence? The oil and arm industries got more US$ 100.000.000.000 to wage war and kill much more innocent people, even with the Democrats in the majority! Surely, I hope they'll pay dearly for this.

Assumptions of water and carbon?

I was under the impression that SETI's search was almost entirely EM-receiving with the occasional message sent - thus the points under Assumptions regarding water and carbon-based lifeforms seem superfluous to this article and would be better placed in a more general 'aliens' article. I'll remove them in a week unless you have something to say. Danlibbo 03:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It may help narrow the search somewhat; if you've got stars whose planets could not possibly have water on them they're probably not promising targets for scrutiny. But, yes, at this point in time we do not have the technology to use these assumptions to narrow the search much. --Robert Merkel 23:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey saw a thing about analysing the atmosphere of an extrasolar planet for the first time - so we're getting closer...but it's still a long way away --Danlibbo 04:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

SETI Making Contact on YouTube

YouTube is not a verifiable source, more so that clip which only has a watermark for "effectmatrix.com". Thus it is not enough to just cite YouTube for claims like that. Find a written, published and unbiased article or book citation. --Danlibbo 04:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy

I removed the Conspiracy section because it is unsourced (a YouTube link does not meet Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Danlibbo (talk • contribs) added it back and requested discussion. I plan on removing it again because, as I indicated, it fails to meet the Wikipedia standard for sourcing, but if anyone has a better citation, now's the time to add it. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. This is a pretty absurd source. I am particularly worried by the claim in the comment that "a moderator" told whoever added it that it could be kept. Morwen - Talk 15:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've discussed this with the editor at User_talk:Nima_Baghaei#SETI_Contacts and he/she has asserted that no source meeting Wikipedia:Reliable sources is available and has also implied that he/she is trying to use Wikipedia to draw attention to this conspiracy. I have informed the editor of the WP:NOR implications of this as well and am removing the section. I urge any other editor (specifically Danlibbo) to come here first before restoring the content unless the quality of the reference has been upgraded. Please note, this is not part of some 'jihad against conspiracy theories', this is basic encyclopedia janitorial work. References are important, triply so for claims like this. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

you guys realise that this is talking about conspiracy theories right? the whole idea is that there is no reliable source.
  • to not mention something based on the lack of evidence is one thing, but to refuse debate is ludicrous - the clear majority of people who visit wikipedia do so either as a starting point for further research or as a sole reference point for basic information (ie a brief rundown on the topic and major events regarding the topic should be mentioned)
  • the video isn't necessarily as bogus as it might look, a cursory investigation shows that several pretty high-ups attended the talk at the national press club (thus the argument has pretty much as much weight as any other good conspiracy theory)


:[on a side note, i find it amazing that no point is made on the page for jfk regarding the assassination conspiracies which have, by far, outlasted most of his other legacies save, for example, the vietnam war and the cuban missile crisis - consider if you were back at school, presenting a paper on jfk's legacies - you seriously wouldn't mention the conspiracies?]
and please don't pretend that wikipedia is a real encyclopaedia (let alone a reliable citation) - not only is that logic seriously flawed, but it weakens the structure of wikipedia as a whole
:as far as this argument requiring citations is concerned: either you request citation for every piece of movie and biographical trivia, or you allow those sections which don't feasibly or logically require fully reliable citations to be present, but just clearly marked and watched closely
--Danlibbo 11:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a difference. Magazine articles have been written about JFK, as have books. A youtube video does not meet Wikipedia:Reliable sources, those do. Your threat to edit war over this is also inappropriate. It is not proper to use Wikipedia as a platform for original research, which is what the posting of this video is attempting to do. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a press release center. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
"Your threat to edit war over this is also inappropriate." no sh*t!
"Magazine articles have been written about JFK, as have books." I'm not arguing the conspiracy theories should be included - pay attention - i'm arguing that mention should be made that such conspiracy theories exist --Danlibbo 02:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

this argument should really never have come up - i suggest someone (i'm guessing nima) rewrite the contribution such that:

  • it only mentions the claim was made
  • provides another source supporting that (this looks semi-reasonable, but i'm sure someone who cares can find something better)

then the argument about whether to include that such a 'theory' exists can begin --Danlibbo 02:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

ok - what's happened: there is now a conspiracy theory section that mentions that there is a conspiracy (as per nima's original link) and nothing more (any conjectures drawn by editors must have verifiable references - any problems, discuss it here and it can be edited or removed

Should we include the Disclosure Project's conspiracy theory?

Now that everyone's finally on the same page: I reckon mention should be made of the conspiracy, as mentioned by Nima_Baghaei above, as it's relevant and probably of interest to readers of the page much like the 1947 Roswell UFO_incident. On the other hand, the 'Disclosure Project' (http://www.disclosureproject.org/ website) that first claimed the conspiracy theory is hardly notable (and even they say there were only 20 or so people at the National Press Club for the original talk). So the argument becomes: "How interesting is such a conspiracy theory to the readers of SETI? Is it worthy of inclusion?" --Danlibbo 02:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

(I think this edit is suitable for inclusion) --Danlibbo 02:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it's relevant. Include it. 202.161.12.249 05:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
agree - 124.189.91.34 22:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
That specific edit is absolutely not appropriate as it fails to assert a reliable source. Cite a newspaper article, not a youtube link. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 23:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Original Research

Paragraphs 3 through 5 of "Where are they now?" sound like original research. Please add references. --Jemecki 03:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

New detector array

[2] "Eavesdropping On The Universe: New Radio Facility Could Detect Earth-like Civilizations Around 1,000 Nearest Stars" tells of a new tool for surveying out to a 30 light year radius for signals such as the ones we on Earth have been incidentally sending out for over 100 years. The new MWA-LFD, which is designed to study frequencies of 80-300 Megahertz, will pick up the same frequencies used by Earth technologies, rather than the present search for special beacons at high frequencies. Source: Harvard-Smithsonian Center For Astrophysics Date: January 8, 2007. I willl not jump in and edit this page, but thought this new info should have a home in the article. Edison 14:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

77 minutes

I read a report about the detection of a stong signal from near the center of the galaxy on Sept 30 and Oct 1, 2005. It repeated five times and lasted about ten minutes each time and repeated every 77 minutes. I don't know if this is a valid report. Does anyone know? Should it be mentioned in the article? Bubba73 (talk), 01:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's a source.[3] The article indicates that the signals were certainly interesting, but there's no consensus that they didn't have a natural source.--Caliga10 03:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I feel that this is worth mentioning in the article, but I'm not comfortable doing it. Bubba73 (talk), 03:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I put the first one at the end of "See also". Bubba73 (talk), 03:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi folks -- the interpretation of this as a SETI signal is (AFAICT) entire due to one kooky Linda Moulton Howe, and no scientist (or other reliable source) is talking about it as a ETI. Sdedeo (tips) 17:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well. I'm the one that put GCRT J1745-3009 under "see also". From what I read it was considered a possibility. From the shape of the signal at that page, it looks like some contnuous beam on something that is rotating every 77 minutes. Bubba73 (talk), 17:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bubba73 -- do you hav a source other than LMH? Happy to include it, but we definitely can't include every scientific phenomenon that someone claims is an ETI. Just out of curiousity, I took a look at the original Nature paper. It's certaintly a curious source! As a sidenote, though, the usual radio SETI searches (like SETI@home) confine themselves to looking for very narrowband emission (i.e., emission confined to a single frequency with a very small linewidth.) They wouldn't consider this a candidate signal because the emission is very broadband. Sdedeo (tips) 17:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I have another source. I first heard about it several days ago, but I don't remember where. (I get newsletters, etc). Then I decided to look over here to see if it was mentioned. It wasn't so I asked on the talk page. I was given the reference above, and I think that the thing I read originally refered to this. Then I found an article about GCRT J1745-3009 and thought that it should at least be mentioned under "see also". But if it is not considered a possible intelligent signal, then it shouldn't go there. Bubba73 (talk), 03:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Our Sun as a sixth-generation star?

What are you talking about? It’s obviously third generational. The Universe is approximately 15 billion years old (slightly shaved), our Sun has been shining for 4.5 billion . . . All true, for stars about the same size of our Sun.

But large stars live and die quicker. The entire life cycle of a star destined to be a red giant is only 2 billion years. So the second generation would start at 2 billion years of age for the universe and (slightly shorter) for the galaxy, the third generation at 4 billion, and so on and so forth. And generations of stars using up their hydrogen fuel and then using the by-products for fusion is how we get carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, magnesium and everything else needed for life. For example, carbon forms when two helium atoms collide to form beryllium-8, and then within a very, very brief fraction of a second collide with a third helium nucleus.

So, was it at six billion years of age? Seven billion? Eight billion that the Milky Way galaxy had enough atoms in interstellar dust to form rocky planets? At a certain point, this has to become a quantitative argument. And we could sure use someone who knows this stuff to help us figure out, how many red giants, and how many other stars living slower lives but also adding atoms to the galaxy.

I myself consider it to be an open possibility that there could be societies much older than us in the Milky Way galaxy. FriendlyRiverOtter 22:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Paranormal??

Why is SETI considered to be under the scope of paranormal research. Labelling it as such degrades its authority. Jrbray 06:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Beats me. They also claim Extraterrestrial life to be under their project (Wikipedia:WikiProject Paranormal). I don't see what is paranormal about the possibility of life on other planets, or the search for it. It is paranormal only if you think they are here. Bubba73 (talk), 03:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is that paranormal? 129.44.172.8 11:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
That makes no sense to me either. SETI does radio astronomy. That falls under science. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Miskatonic (talk • contribs) 03:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
It was added 2006-10-15. Unless there are objections with valid reasons for it being considered paranormal, I suggest we remove it. Any objections? Bubba73 (talk), 03:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Note, the same project tag was removed from Extraterrestrial life 2007-03-25. Bubba73 (talk), 03:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I see no connection to the paranormal, so I'm premoving the Paranormal Project tag. Bubba73 (talk), 13:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)