Talk:Service pistol

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[edit] United States

Nice job on the page. I see quite an extensive list of handguns on the page List of individual weapons of the U.S. Armed Forces#Sidearms. Perhaps you can find some important ones here, or maybe correctly identify ones already listed? --Deon Steyn 10:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if one can classify anything anything from the Civil War period (or earlier) as a "service pistol", because there doesn't seem to a single military service for one thing and more importantly there was many different handguns being used (seemingly even within one wing of the armed services). Perhaps the list should include only the first real single standardised handgun... not sure what that would be though? Deon Steyn 06:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
It is a tough one, especially since the list could technically be enormous, covering every variation on the Navy Colt cap & ball revolver and almost every modern 9mm Semi-Auto. I'm trying to compromise between completeness, readability, and practicality here- and for NPOV reasons it seemed important to mention the LeMat, which was the closest thing the Confederate States had to a "Service Pistol", even though it wasn't all that widely issued. I'm not a US military weapons expert, but it would seem that the first gun issued to EVERYONE was the Colt M1911A1, but even then there were people using Colt and S&W .45 revolvers until well after WWII, and even now it seems every branch of the US military uses a different gun. --Commander Zulu 06:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beretta 92

I have recently changed the Beretta 92 pages. They are now consolidated onto only 1 page (Beretta 92), but the M9 Pistol remains (and rightly so in my opinion). On the single page it mentions the historical and current variants as well as the specific version (92G) adopted by the French military. The Italian military might also have adopted a difference version to the 92FS, but I don't information one way or the other. --Deon Steyn 11:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tables?

The data listed seem suited to tables, perhaps something like this (for Russia):

Firearm Type Caliber Service
Smith & Wesson No 3 Revolver .44 Russian 1874-1895
Nagant M1895 Revolver 7.62x38R 1895-1945
Tokarev TT-33 Pistol 7.62x25 Tokarev 1933-1955
Makarov PM Pistol 9mm Makarov 1951-Present

Deon Steyn 11:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I see you (Commander Zulu) have added it to the page? Shall I do the conversion of the rest (so we don't duplicate work)? -- Deon Steyn 12:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
No need, I just did it... but thanks very much for the excellent suggestion and the link to the US weapons! I'm pretty sure there's another French gun between the MAB D and the Beretta M92FS, but I just can't for the life of me remember what it is... --Commander Zulu 12:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice job... other things we can look at:

  • removing indent ":" left-over from talk page formatting.
  • perhaps edition of style="width:450px" to create consistent size (might lead to other problems though)?
  • Only linking first occurence of each caliber in a table?
  • Wiki standard for things like "8 mm" instead of "8mm".
  • On that point, I most commonly see things cartridges in the form "A x B mm" (spaces everywhere)?
I have to confess I tend to use the commercial names for ammunition (being both a collector and a shooter)... for example, most people wouldn't walk into a gunshop and ask for a box of "9x19" cartridges... they'd ask for 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger, depending where they lived. I figured it's probably the best balance between accessibility for the casual reader and factual correctness, but I'm more than willing to hear views to the contrary. The Wiki Standard for calibres seems to be X mm, but I just can't quite bring myself to do it... it just looks wrong, in some way I can't put my finger on. Again, I'm willing to accept that my way (Xmm) may not actually be the correct one, though... Agree totally about the only linking the first occurence of each calibre (you can tell I cut and pasted a lot, can't you?) Also, I'd like to expand the "History" section but I really don't know what to say without either getting bogged down in the individual histories of the major service pistols (must... not... talk... about... Webley Revolvers! :D) Any ideas? --Commander Zulu 13:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's a tricky one, there is one point in the Manual of style addressing this saying one should have a space before the unit of measurement, see last bullet at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Units of measurement. As for 9mm Para, I don't mind either way as I see it in all different formats and I'd tend to agree with a preference for the words over "9x19". For the rest I think "A × B mm" or "A mm" would be most standard if not a standard?
As for history, perhaps something on sidearm versus/replacing sword... maybe current state of affairs (who gets them, who don't?).
Deon Steyn 13:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I like the sword idea, but I'm not really qualified to comment on who gets issued handguns and who doesn't, since I'm not in the military and don't know enough about how they decide that sort of thing. --Commander Zulu 13:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

I should probably mention that "Calibre" is not a spelling error in Commonwealth English, hence it's usage here. I don't want to get pedantic about the whole thing, but I'm fairly sure the Wikipedia policy is to go with the spelling of the article's creator where possible, so I'd prefer to use the Commonwealth English spelling, unless anyone has any major objections. --Commander Zulu 13:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Quite correct, the spelling should remain as "calibre", see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National varieties of English .Deon Steyn 08:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Mauser Broomhandles

Can anyone provide more information on these? I know the Chinese were VERY fond of the C96 Broomhandle design, but apparently there's some confusion over which pistols were actual Mausers and which were Chinese knock-offs. As far as I'm concerned, the Type 17 .45ACP knockoffs should be considered a "Mauser Broomhandle", but I'm not really an expert on Asian firearms... --Commander Zulu 15:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

To confuse things even more, Chinese also used Spanish Astra and Royal pistols, which outwardly resemble C96, but are quite different inside.--81.197.239.57 15:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

--81.197.239.57 17:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Swords

"Swords are still retained for ceremonial use by most armies, but are never carried into combat in the modern era. The last military to routinely issue swords to officers and NCOs- with the expectation they would see combat- was Imperial Japan." - what about Gurkha regiments? or are they not included, as they are not an entire military force? Nessieliberation 14:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the Ghurkas are issued with Kukris, which are considered "Knives" rather than swords. Still, if the Ghurkas are in fact issued with swords- with the expectation they will be used in combat- then I'd be more than happy to edit the article accordingly. --Commander Zulu 14:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Factual accuracy

The author of this page has stated that the designation of "service pistol" starts with early revolvers. I would like to mention that Britain, France, Belgium, Russia, and most other european nations had standardised military pistol designs long before revolvers were common. There are many reproductions of single shot flint lock military pistols available today that represent historic versions. You may want to mention these early single shot pistols.

Prior to WWII, British and Empire Officers were expected to purchase their own service pistols. There were standard designs- to an extent- dating from the late 18th Century, but nothing that could be considered a "Service Pistol" in the sense we know it until the middle of the 19th century, which the advent of cap & ball revolvers. --Commander Zulu 08:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)