Talk:Serial killer
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[edit] Revenge as a motive
Could this be a motivation for a serial killer? For example, if someone was abused by corrupt police and killed cops, or targeted a specific group of people that had wronged him in his life would this fit the definition? Or, would this fall under the power/control category? Or would they be just a terrorist instead, trying to send the message that it's what'll happen to corrupt cops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.189.38.7 (talk) 00:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Tricky question. Depending on the time and importance, or lack of, to the killer a person like that could be labeled a serial killer or a mass murderer. An argument could be made that a serial killer doesn't really need motivation also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.149.10 (talk) 09:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Any One Interested in Joining WikiProject Criminal Biography
If you are interested in serial killers and maintaining pages about serial killers, please fell free to join our project at Wikipedia:WikiProject Criminal Biography. It is our goal to make a comprehensive directory of all true crime related articles. Thanks. Jmm6f488 08:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Recent serial killers?
It would be interesting to add a section for serial killers in recent news. For instance, Bruce Mendenhall, the possible serial killer arrested today. Wikipedia is great for quick collection of facts during breaking news/emergencies (ie VTech shooting), but before enough is available to make a page specifically for the person it would be a good location. Silverweed 10:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
yeah that would be really great Jmm6f488 20:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Modern phenomenon?
Although the phenomenon of serial murder is popularly regarded as a modern one...
I would agree with this statement but have been looking for academic sources that state as much. It is a bold assertion and I'm curious if any contributors can provide some background on how/where/why and among whom this consensus was reached. Inoculatedcities 19:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that it's not a modern phenomenon. What is modern is the widepread reporting of serial killers, and advances in police work and communication that have allowed more serial killers to be identified. The thought of it being modern probably has a lot to do with politicians and activists in the 70s and 80s using the sensational stories of serial killers to promote their own agendas. A lot of laws --many of which had little to do with the serial killer they used as a scare tactic-- were proposed and passed because people played up on the idea of serial murder becoming increasingly more prevalent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.149.10 (talk) 09:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Definition
The definition clearly lacks some kind of reference to a serial killer's psychological need to kill. How else can we differentiate between some one like Billy the kid (not usually thought of as a serial killer) and the Shipmans, Rippers...that this article is intended for? Malick78 16:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- This page offers the following basis for a more developed definition for our page:
- "The British author John Brody first used the term in 1966, and the National Institute of Justice defined serial murder in 1988 as "a series of 2 or more murders, committed as separate events, usually, but not always, by one offender acting alone" (Newton 2000, p. 205). Another perspective is that of Steve Egger, who uses six characteristics in his definition of serial murder: (1) There are a minimum of two murders; (2) the killer and victim are unrelated; (3) the murders have no direct connection to each other and occur at different times; (4) the murders usually occur at different locations; (5) victims may have characteristics in common with earlier or later victims; and (6) the murders are not committed for material gain but for gratification based on fantasies.
- Several of these characteristics are debatable. The material gain motive is more common with the female than the male style of serial murder, thus Egger's definition could be seen more as serial signature murder. Also, individuals such as Edmund Kemper, who killed his grandparents and mother, and Henry Lee Lucas, whose mother was his first victim, are generally classified as serial killers. The criminologist Eric Hickey states that most researchers define serial killers as having three to four victims, but also includes in his database of serial killers some individuals who "killed only two victims but were suspect in other slayings or in which evidence indicated their intent to kill others" (Hickey 1997, p.27). The problem with using a definition based strictly on three victims omits the two-time signature killer who has obsessive qualities and would be expected to continue to kill."
Basically this has a few superior things about it than our definition (taken from a half-arsed internet dictionary - not a great source for in depth insight), specifically the section I've made bold. It's not perfect but is better because it highlights the victims' similarities and the killer's psychological gratification. It's still an internet source, but heh, I don't have many books on the subject. Can we try and include some of this info? Otherwise the page includes gunslingers and other non-serial killers, as I've said before.Malick78 16:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- This is the same page but without ads so looks better, since some one complained it looked like 'spam' when I cited the previous version of the page in an edit. I'm very surprised no one is responding to my suggestion here, btw, since the whole page is ruined by the intro which is so wide-ranging to be useless - if the definition is someone who kills 3 people - then that includes soldiers, hitmen... This can't possibly be intended and therefore we need to underline that the killing is done for psychological gratificationMalick78 08:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
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- This new link is better, but it was important to cite that it was from an encyclopedia and not just drop a link. As far as your concerns about the definition, the psychological gratification end of things is somewhat debatable. Ther term serial killer has also been applied to individuals who kill for financial gain... what else would they be called? The actual definition also needs to include the cooling off period, otherwise we'd be talking about a spree killer or maybe even a mass murderer. DreamGuy 15:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Although there are a number of similarities among serial killers, there are also a number of differences. If Drew Peterson turns out to have killed several people, including two wives, he would be differentiated from killers like Ted Bundy or killers like Henry Lucas. If he killed his two wives, the mother of one of them, a neighbor who was said to have hanged himself, etc, he would be different than the serial rapist/killers like Ted Bundy and the Hillside Stranglers. He doesn't enter into a troll phase or stalk a victim in the same way as the more ritualized serial killers. It is a long drawn out situation where he dates them, romances them, controls them, kills them. If it is a ritual, it is a different kind of ritual. Anyone who interferes with his long ritual can die. Another Illinois man killed a man he suspected of having an affair with his wife, and then much later killed one of his wives. He was always obsessed with the women in his life to that intensity. We need a more comprehensive understanding of the different kinds of serial killer. daviddaniel37 —Preceding comment was added at 19:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- thus appear to be quite normal and often even charming
I found this comment to be disconcerting because although this is usually true of the organized serial killers, it is not neccessarily true of disorganized serial killers. I really feel that it should be changed but I have no references and am not sure how to change it properly. So I'm not going to change it, but I think that it would be really useful to this page if someone did change it.
[edit] Want to Join the Serial Killer Task Force?
If you are interested in improving articles related to serial killers, mass murderers, spree killers and there capture you maybe interested in joining The Serial Killer Task Force. Our task force tries to maintain articles about not only criminals, but also the techniques employed by Law Enforcement to catch them such as Offender profiling,Vi-CAP, the Behavioral Science Unit and the Murder Investigation Team.
You can help by:
- Creating new articles.
- Expanding stubs.
- Adding photographs and/or infoboxes.
- Referencing articles.
- Research topics.
- Anything else really...
For more information, see the project page, and if you have any questions you can leave them Here and someone will get back to you as soon as possible.
Jmm6f488 04:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Fixed obvious juvinile vandalism... Andacar 16:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Racial Misinformation-False Spotlighting
Saying serial killers are more likely to be white males in the USA, because 73% of them are white (BTW, someone has already objected that the source for that figure is political and biased at best, and would conrtadict some of the statistics I have heard which would put it at less either way) My point is that about ~73% of the men in the USA are white, so that would just represent their statistical representation in the population, not make them more likely to be serial killers then african-americans, Hispanics, etc. So I took it out, otherwise, you must list each ethinic group's male USA population percentage among known serial killers (identified ethnic group but unknown offender as well possibly) since that figure 73% doesn't represent any notable likelihood or propensity among whites for serial killing since they are ~73% of the population of the entire USA to began with (not just serial kilers). The implication is thus false, and perpetuating a stereotype. In fact, for instance, statistically, African-Americans have a higher then average rate of serial killing then Caucasian males in the USA per capita (more above their population of ~13%). So lets get it right here. JohnHistory 07:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory
[edit] External Links / SKDB
It has been a year and a half since I requested my site (The Serial Killer Database - www dot dot net) be added to the External Links section. I understand why it was denied before because I only had about 8 serial killers profiled at the time, but now I'm up to 62 serial killers and would like to ask for another consideration for my site to be included. I've worked very hard to keep it updated and I pretty much work on it daily. I will continue to add serial killers and update the pages I've already completed. Now I already know the Wikipedia editor known as DreamGuy does not like me, we had some big disagreements before and I know he would never personally allow my site to be listed. But I am asking all other editors here to please consider it. Thank you. SykoByte 05:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I just had a look at your site and it is shallow, lacks depth and is puerile. There is little of value to the intelligent reader and I would therefore oppose it being linked to this article. Sorry.Malick78 09:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I look at all you editors' Talk pages and all I see is conflict on what should and should not be added. You all constantly delete and revise what each other write. Basically nobody on here really seems to agree on anything. Plus most of the articles on here have errors and contradictions. Look at the page on Ted Bundy, on the side it says he was born in Glaisdale, VT, then in the article it says he was born in Hoover, VT.. then everywhere else on the net it says he was born in Burlington, VT. Atleast I put actual work into a website rather than sit on here all day making little tiny minor changes to incorrect-in-the-first-place articles all day, and a lot of articles don't even contain pictures.. which are very important to a good encyclopedic entry. Before you rip on someone else's work, take a look at where you are. Your soul purpose is to sit here all day and wait for vandals to come and mess with articles. Wikipedia needs to end this whole anybody-can-edit thing and start using their donations to hire intelligent people to create their articles. But go ahead and delete this because you know it's the truth. Is anybody on here not an asshole? SykoByte 14:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't have anything against you personally. I check links to make sure they meet WP:EL rules and are not a violation of WP:COI or WP:SPAM. Considering you were reported by other people for spamming this site in the past, and you agreed to not add the link, coming back and addig it again and pretending that people are removing it because they don't like you isn't really the proper way to handle things. I recommend reading those links which I just gave you an which I and others have provided for you in the past and which you claimed to have read. Then you will get an idea of what it takes to be listed here and the proper way to go about it. DreamGuy 14:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- You'll have to Google it because "DreamGuy" decided to remove the link (on a discussion page???)
I've seen all the arguments you've gotten into and you are well-known around here as a jerk. I think some action was even taken against you once for your down-right rudeness. Of course that's probably all deleted away now. I hope other editors don't bow down to your bullshit. You try way too hard to control Wikipedia. SykoByte 14:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, Dreamguy was out of order deleting the link on a talk page. However, your personal attacks are unnecessary. Also, if you think wikipedia is so bad, why are you here? Why don't you correct the mistakes you see? It seems to me, you are more interested in self-advertisement - hence putting this discussion section at the top of the talk page for it to be seen first, rather than at the bottom where it belonged chronologically. Malick78 08:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- We have a link that the guy is trying to promote, no reason for it to be here as live link, and anyone who wants to go look at the site still can just by typing the address into their browser, so it's not out of order to remove the link. It's called not rewarding self-promotion with a higher Google ranking. 14:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I swear I did not mean to put it at the top to make you guys mad. I assumed all new postings were supposed to go to the top (on another page they did). I apologize for that. However DreamGuy has made many personal attacks and that is why I posted for ALL OTHER editors to respond. And I have made a couple small articles and fixes to Wikipedia entries. I'm not against Wikipedia, it's a great idea.. but I also believe some editors do not belong here because of their rudeness and their Wikipedia-Patrol attitude. My site is like a database. It wasn't meant to be encyclopedic. It's a site for quick facts and stats, photos, quotes and sources. I've had many compliments on how my site gets straight to the point of things without a lot of reading. I think it offers something different for people looking up serial killers. I could have copied and pasted these Wikipedia articles into my site (like I've seen other sites do) but that is not right. Instead I link to the articles in here and Crime Library. Both sites totally contradict each other but they are the two best sources on the internet. I just feel my site offers something different in this category and that is why I wanted it to be considered. I'm no pro at webdesign or graphics.. I'm self-taught in basic HTML and still learning a few things here and there. My site offers different information than what is in these articles, just like the other External Links on each page. By requesting it be considered, I wasn't expecting more rude comments. I'm not here to make enemies and I don't want to interact with DreamGuy at all anymore. I will try my best to ignore him. SykoByte 3:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Please stop trying to call my enforcing the rules of this encyclopedia and bending over backwards to try to point these rules out to you (with links) so you can follow them and learn to make worthwhile contributions as "personal attacks"... To the contrary, you are the one who has made personal attacks. Please make an effort to learn to follow our policies here, and please don't go running around making false accusations every time you don't get your way. If you make contributions that improve this encyclopedia, then your edits will be welcome. If instead you use the site to try to promote your own personal website, then those edits will be removed. It's just how things work here. DreamGuy 14:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Needs Citations...Badly
This entire entry is in dire need of references, especially during the instances of argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stev0supreemo (talk • contribs) 00:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. you're welcome to contribute. Anastrophe (talk) 04:48, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ernst Gennat
de:Ernst Gennat has been using the term "Serienmörder" (serial killer) in his article "Die Düsseldorfer Sexualverbrechen" (the dusseldorf sexual crimes) speaking about Peter Kürten. The article was published in 1930 in the "Kriminalistische Monatshefte" (criminal monthly zine) which is undisputed evidence. Although Gennat had been already developing the investigation methods that we know as "profiling" today one may assume that much of his work was unknown in the U.S. due to the interruptions of world war II. He even created a central database of major crimes that allowed him to spot serial killers in the Reich. The fame of Gennat's groundbreaking work is widely known in Germany due to the recent publications and media representation of profiler de:Stephan Harbort who has been researching historic documents about serial killers in Germany - mostly noting the difference of the statistic data and assumption that is used by the FBI on their records. The en-Wikipedia has nothing to say about that? Guidod (talk) 04:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Huh?
The second paragraph states "The term serial killer is widely believed to have been coined either by FBI agent Robert Ressler or by Dr. Robert D. Keppel in the 1970s (the credit for the term is disputed)." In the next paragraph it reads "The term serial killer is widely believed to have been coined by FBI agent Ethan Thomas." Huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.60.32.199 (talk) 19:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "Antisocial Personality Disorder but rarely psychopathy" -- Contradiction?
The article on serial killers says that "All serial killers suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder but rarely psychopathy". But the article on Psychopath says:
"The official stance of the American Psychiatric Association as presented in the DSM-IV-TR is that psychopathy and sociopathy are obsolete synonyms for antisocial personality disorder. The World Health Organization takes a similar stance in its ICD-10 by referring to psychopathy, sociopathy, antisocial personality, asocial personality, and amoral personality as synonyms for dissocial personality disorder."
"Psychopathy" and "Antisocial Personality" are synonyms. A person can't suffer from one but not the other.
I shall, accordingly, delete the phrase "but not psychopathy".
Agemegos (talk) 04:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] ED Gein
I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, Ed Gein was only ever convicted of murdering two people. The defnition of this article stated you needed to kill three or more people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.68.244.251 (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- The definition of serial killer is variable: some experts say 4 kills, most 3, some even 2 (especially if he seems they were likely to kill more and showed the psychological impulse involved). Furthermore, that he was convicted of just 2 is only of partial importance: if most reliable experts on the subject think he killed more and call him a serial killer - then we can quote them as such and he can be classified thusly. Malick78 (talk) 21:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Jason Voorhees
Should Jason Voorhees and Friday the 13th be listed under the serial killers in fiction section? He wasn't really a serial killer, just the "ghost" of a boy on revenge. Granted Freddy was the same but atleast his character was a serial killer in life.Feral Mind (talk) 06:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)