Talk:Sergei Prokofiev

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[edit] Early Operas

I'm going to slightly alter a the information on his early operas, as I have a source and more information than is offered at the moment. Ian

[edit] Link problem

In the list of compositions, I wrote: [Piano Sonata]s

It fails to link to the [Piano Sonata] article. erl 216.19.218.50 20:19, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page says a lot about his early life, gets to the first symphony, and then more or less ends, and announces his death. How about all the music??! --Tb 05:17 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I am sorry about this, I started writing this article a long time ago and never got around to finishing it. It's a translation of an essay I wrote for school which I thought I had lost, but I found it today and finished the translation. Hope you like it although it is rough. I'd love it if someone with a good grasp of english went through it and brushed up the language. --Jofo 03 October 2003

I've had a quick pass through it. I've a question: when you write "He reaffirmed his contacts with the russian ballet and with Stravinsky" do you mean Diaghilev's Ballets Russes by "russian ballet", or just the Russian ballet scene in general? It sounds like a could be something you translated that didn't really need translating ;) Good work on this, by the way. --Camembert
What I meant was the Ballets Russes, thanks for pointing that out. I've changed that and added a link. /Jofo

[edit] Russian name

Something about his name: Are you really sure these accents are written in Russian??! This Russian page doesn't write his name with any accents: http://staratel.com/music/classic/composers/photo1079.htm

Is there anyone with perfect Russian knowledge and can tell me whether those odd accents can be safely removed? I don't want to do it without discussing this before. -andy

It's simple stress-marks (lexical stress, one in each word). In Russian they are written only in some dictionaries, some children's books and in textbooks for people studying Russian language. --.:Ajvol:. 20:59, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The stress marks are NOT part of the official orthography. It's just that the placement of the stress in Russian words is often difficult to predict, and so for the assistance of learners stress marks are often inserted in pedagogical texts, as Ajvol says. However as this is an encyclopedia, not a primer on how to pronounce foreign words, I would leave the stress marks OUT. This is a very different situation from the Scandinavian languages, Hungarian, French, Vietnamese, Czech, Polish and some other languages, where the diacritical marks are absolutely part of the letter. Do svidaniya JackofOz 22:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers.

Well, I'd rather switch to underlined vowels instead. Or mark the stressed vowels in italics, or, or ... But DO get rid of those accents. Please consider that Greek readers knowing Russian might be confused by this, as for Greeks accents ARE part of the official language, not just for foreigners in newspapers :) In Russian this confirmedly IS NOT part of the language, and thus should be removed. -andy


Hum ... me once again. I found a lot of Russians that write their name as Prokof'ev. This is very good, as the ' perfectly denotes the existence of a mellowing sign (looking similar to a small b, but with a bigger belly :)) after the 'f'. Maybe this alternative writing could also be integrated into the site, or even aliased for redirection. My 2c. -andy

I propose to keep the accents. They might be confusing to Greeks but they are very helpful to many non-native Russian readers (giving the name in cyrillic including accent marks is roughly equivalent to giving the IPA transcription). Moreover, when stress is marked in Russian, it is common practice to do so with accents (and not underlined or italic or...). See for example this russian wikipedia article where stress is marked on the last name since it is not obvious (Ivanov usually has the stress on the last syllable, but in this case on the second). Greetings. --Lenthe 09:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. :/ Someone has put the accents in again. Please people, MAKE UP YOUR MIND thanks. -andy 80.129.98.104 19:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I have a problem with the final alternate spelling: Profevjew? I am a fluent speaker and the only verisimilitude I find here with the Russian tongue is its long standing history with anti-semitism. Can someone please demonstrate the -jew ending had merit?

Prokofjew is the German spelling of Prokofiev. I've never seen it spelled that way in English texts. Removing 'Prokofjew'
Russian is not totally phonetic. The use of a "V" at the end of words sounds like an F. In other slavonic languages say Ukrainian (especially Western Ukrainian) the "V" ending is pronounced like a W as in Windows. In central Ukrainian it is a V. In Eastern Ukrainian the spectrum changes to a Russian influenced F. These are the various dialects which influence speach throughout the Slavic world. The diacritical marks show were the stress is placed in pronounciation. Some languages (ie Polish) have a stress on a particular syllable and it does not change from word to word. In Russia the stree may change. In the one word, a stress change can change the meaning of the word totally, and as a result Russians usually place the stress in the words in dictionaries and encyclopedic entries. --Bandurist 16:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lina

I have added a brief para on Lina's later years and death, but not sure if this is POV - I did know her, but the assertion about paranoia is also supported by writers elsewhere e.g. Downes. Because the gist has been asserted elsewhere I don't think it's an invasion of privacy. Barnabypage 01:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

My late grandmother was good friends with Mira Mendelson in college, during the time she met Prokofiev. My mother says that Mira adored Prokofiev (he was the last of several older, renown men that she did or tried to fall in love with), and if anyone "forced" him to leave Lina, it was Mira. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.151.215.227 (talk) 00:14, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His picture

Couldn't there be a little better picture to represent him? This one is a little too funny.

[edit] The pieces he is most known for.

Does anyone know the pieces that Prokofiev is most known for.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

- well among his most popular are

piano works I would say his toccata, and his first piano concerto
- then would be his opera "The love for three oranges"

- also, of course his "Peter and the Wolf" suite at the end it mentions that when stalin dies his wife is let out.... but he dies on the same day as stalin. How does that work?


- Piano Concerto No. 3 is undoubtely one of his most famous and recorded works. I remember reading somewhere there are more than seventy different interpretations of it already recorded. M Marcondes de Freitas 01:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add that his Symphony No. 5 is most popular. So is everybody else's Symph 5, I guess, except Brahms, of course, who never got to it. Lazy bastard. Reggie Rueffer, Arlington, Tx Reggierueffer@sbcglobal.net 00:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Romeo And Juliet is his most memorable. Especially the Dance of the Knights.

And let us not forget the venerable War Sonatas.

His Leutenant Kiji Suite is very popular. Nevsky Suite/Cantata(?) is also popular. Also his "Classical" Symphony is very well noted and played often on the radio.

[edit] More Left?

I checked Political Compass and actually Bartok & Schonberg were more social left than Prokofiev. Although Prokofiev was more economically left than both. http://politicalcompass.jpagel.net/composersNicholasPrakash 19:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

There are sections on Prokofiev's biography and works, however there is no section which describes the style of his music. It is suggested such a section is added (Music) and the list of works be moved to a new page (List of compositions by Sergei Prokofiev).

[edit] Transliteration of father's name

It's a feeling thing, but I'd prefer Sergeyevitch instead of simple ch. OK, I know whom you're thinking about: Milla Jovovich, who has the -ch too. :) But the ч feels harder than an "ordinary" "ch", so I'd prefer to have the t in. -andy 80.129.121.7 23:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birthdate

It's now widely accepted that he was born on 27 April, not 23 April. I first became aware of this when reading Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, 8th ed, which was compiled by Nicolas Slonimsky, and published, I think, in 1992 (15 years ago). Slonimsky himself died as long ago as 1995, so this is hardly new information. I'm surprised anybody still has any doubts about this. I don't have access to Baker's, or Grove which I'm sure would also back me up, but see this. JackofOz 09:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I did not know until now that this was an issue. And it appears to be an interesting one.
The New Grove has 23 April -- in the main encyclopedia (online) -- article by Dorothea Redepenning. The New Grove Dictionary of Opera has an article by Richard Taruskin, and gives the birthdate as, no kidding, 27 April. (I thought those two publications shared their biographical info!!) When I'm home from work I can look it up in my 1980 20-volume Grove but I suspect it will have the older, i.e. 23 April date as well.
Neither article gives any information on the controversy, or on how the birthdate is known. I tend to trust Slonimsky because he's trustworthy, but that's just my personal bias. Maybe we should report both birthdates? Antandrus (talk) 22:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
And more. The 1980 Grove article, by Rita McAllister, did have 23 April, but it's probably 30 years old now. My big Slonimsky (likely the same book you have) gives 27 April, and states that "[Prokofiev] erroneously believed that the date was April 23; the correct date was established with the discovery of his birth certificate." Antandrus (talk) 02:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd have to go to a library to see what Baker's 8th said verbatim. I know that's where I first read about this. But what I do have in front of me is the soft-back Webster's New World Dictionary of Music (1998 ed). This is published by MacMillan, and seemingly drawn from Baker's 8th and also Slonimsky's own Lectionary of Music. It's edited by Richard Kassell; the preface says, in part "Thanks to the deft and experienced hand of editor Richard Kassel, virtually every entry has retained Slonimsky's renowned tone, wit, and scholarship".
  • Webster's entry on Prokofiev says: "b. Sontsovka, Apr. 27, 1891; d. Moscow, Mar 5, 1953". No discussion, no debate, just a bald uncontroversial fact.
  • We do report both dates, but 27 April is currently a footnote awaiting a citation. The main entry still says 23 April. I believe the main entry should say 27 April, and information about why it was formerly shown in reference works as 23 April should go in the footnote. JackofOz 03:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
(Coincidentally) I've just added the Taruskin as a source to the article, but unfortunately I don't have anything to add to the above. --Kleinzach 03:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and made him four days younger. Thanks all, Antandrus (talk) 03:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
And thank you, Antandrus, for your help with this. Now finally, I can mention a bit of trivia that's been in my head for the past couple of days. Rostropovich not only studied with Prokofiev, and premiered some of his works, but also died on his birthday.  :) JackofOz 03:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coherence on cause of death in the section "Return to Soviet Union"?

In the third-from-last paragraph, it is stated that "Prokofiev died at the age of 61 on 1953-03-05 (on the same day and from the same cause as Soviet premier Joseph Stalin)." However, in the next paragraph, this certainty as to the cause of death disappears with "Prokofiev's death is usually attributed to cerebral hemorrhage (bleeding into the brain) but it is known that he was not well for 8 years before he died and was plagued during that length of time by headaches, nausea and dizziness[2], so the precise nature of Prokofiev's terminal illness is uncertain." Randomusernamealso 08:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major issue

First of all, instead of saying he composed a piece using F major without the B flat, would it not be more accurate to say he composed it in F lydian, and perhaps put the bit about F lydian being F major without a B flat in brackets? Secondly, I hope you all enjoyed my frankly hillarious pun on the word "major". Kindest regards, D'ragos Morgul (Messenger of Magnus) 12:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC).