Talk:Serenade No. 13 (Mozart)

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[edit] Audio story?

Does anyone remember an audio tape from the early-to-mid-80's that was about Mozart and his music? It was narrated from the point of view of Eine and Kleine Nachtmusik, a brother and sister who were pulled literally into the music itself and relied on riding the notes of the various pieces. - MargyL

[edit] Mario?

"The musical introduction at the beginning of the game Super Mario Bros. is this first movement."... If you don't mind me asking... what!? As far as I can tell the Mario theme tune and this are fairly dissimilair... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.145.117 (talk • contribs) I, username222, feel the same way.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.30.145.254 (talk • contribs)

Obviously this comment was written a long time ago, and there's no trivia/popular culture/whatever section any more...but the answer is, it's in fact Mario Bros. that uses the introduction of the piece. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 15:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second theme

In the paragraph titled "first movement", where does the second theme start?? Identify so in the following note list:

G-D-G-D-G-D-G-B-D

C-A-C-A-C-A-F#-A-D

G-G-B-A-G-G-F#-F#-A-C-F#

A-G-G-B-A-G-G-F#-F#-A-C-F#

G-G-G-F#-E-F#-G-G-B-A-G-A-B-B-D-C-B-C-D

D-E-D-C-C-C-B-B

B-A-A-G-F#-E-F#-G-A-B

D-E-D-C-C-C-C-B-B-B

B-A-A-A-G-F#-E-F#-G

(I believe it starts just after the note list ends; am I correct??) Georgia guy 22:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a really old follow-up, but here goes anyways. The "second theme" is in the dominant (D major) and piano. It starts on measure 28 and goes: A--G-F#-E-D, B, G, E, A. F#--E-D-C#-B, G, F#, E. DavidRF 16:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This tune is a mess!

I've stumbled across a page that has a midi file to the full tune and I got something that can be divided into 4 parts:

  1. The first part has the notes further up this talk page in the key of G, and then stays in G only a little while longer and then modulates into D for a long time with a hard-to-remember set.
  2. The second part is identical to the first throughout.
  3. The first 9 notes of the third part are the same as the first 9 notes of the first part only transposed into the key of D. The next 9 notes of the third part are the same as the next 9 notes of the first part only transposed into the key of E. The rest of the third part is hard to memorize.
  4. The fourth part is the same as the first part until a few measures after the modulation starts. After that, it is the same as the first part only going back into the key of G and finally gets a nice ending for a song in the key of G.

Any false info in the above?? Georgia guy 21:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Family Guy

Aah, this was the one tune that four Peter Griffins laugh to in a 'capella. Which episode was that, though... --Geopgeop 07:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This article could use an "Eine Kleine popkultur" section... Chubbles 22:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fifth/Second Movement

Why was it necessary to take this information out of the article? 24.58.18.13

[edit] Regarding the fact tag

Rex, summarized your re-insertion of the cite tag with "thats not where the cite tagg is about. Its about the claim that its better known by in German, which google tests do not prove".
I'll try to offer you the proof you desire:
First of all "Serenade for strings in G major" is hardly known in Germany, being the English translation of the German name "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur". Thus the question is, is "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is better known than "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur" in Germany. Personally, I can only say, yes, before I'd have read this article I'd definitly known about "Eine kleine Nachtmusik", but not about "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur". Still, this is no proof. Looking at the German Wikipedia, we can see that the Corresponding entry is also titled "Eine kleine Nachtmusik", and not "Serenade für Streicher in G-Dur". Looking at the naming conventions we can deduct that this is in fact, the better known term in Germany. But let's Google-test this theory. "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" counting only German pages: 86k hits. "Serenade für Streicher" 572 hits. Also, I offer this information site about Mozart's works, which also exclusively lists "Eine kleine Nachtmusik". I hope this convinces you and would appreciate a reply. Also I would be interested what caused you to challenge this piece of information with a fact tag. 84.145.199.254 01:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not about Germany, Germans or the German language, so that basically renders your piece of text above useless. This English article, on the English wikipedia article states that EKN is a better know term, which in the case of English is doubtfull, and likely unprovable. Hence I suggest you cut the weasel words.Rex 15:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I have misunderstood, I thought you meant "better known in German (speaking areas)", but actually you meant "better known as 'eine kleine nachtmusik' than 'Serenade for strings in G major' in english." I'll dig around for some information, see if I can find some international mozart databases. Update: I did some preliminary searching, almost all sources base off the Köchel catalogue (good call there, BTW) and list them alternatively as "Serenade for strings" with "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" as subtitle as in Mozart's original script or simply "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" ommiting "Serenade for strings" entirely. This didn't help anything either way. I also checked out amazon, what was the prevalent name for the this particular work was, and there "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" was the main title of the CDs I found. Not really conclusive proof, but I feel it hints that "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is better know (as why would the producers of the CDs not print "Serenade for strings" on them if that were the better known term) 84.145.221.62 16:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, Arkivmusic lists it as Eine kleine Nachtmusik in their most listing of popular Mozart works, while calling it Serenade no 13 in G major, K 525 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" in their page for the work itself. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 17:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... since it lists the "technical term" Serenade no 13 in G major only on the page for the work itself I'd say that "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is the better known one (in the sense that more people will say "Ah, I know that one" to "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" than to "Serenade no 13 in G major") 84.145.221.62 18:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Sadly that's not really important. Meanwhile I'm going to change 'better known as' to 'also known as', if the anonymous still wants to change it, (s)he can do so when she has sources (a poll or something like that) to back his/her statement up.Rex 20:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
While I still disagree I think it would be a pretty lame thing to fight over, so go ahead. As long as this won't lead to a move to "Serenade no 13 in G major" I see this as an acceptable compromise. 84.145.221.62 22:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The sonata's minuet has been recorded in an arrangement for string quartet"

This may be referring to l'Oiseau-lyre OLS 101 from about 1971, which was not exactly, I think, for string quartet, but was a recording for small chamber ensemble of KV498a/Anh. 136 as part of Eine kleine Nachtmusik (as its second movement). The performers were

“ Granville Jones, Raymond Keenlyside, violin; Cecil Aronowitz, viola; Nigel Amherst, double-bass; Thurston Dart, organ; Philomusica of London; Thurston Dart, conductor ”

. This from a record in http://www.ohiolink.edu . (Or, of course, there may well be a recording of KV498a/Anh136 for string quartet, but the reference hasn't yet been provided. Note that the Philomusica of London's role, and the need for an organ, in the recording may have been limited to the other works in the recording, not Eine kleine Nachtmusik- namely,

Serenata notturna, K. 239 -- Epistle sonata in F major, K. 244 -- Epistle sonata in G major, K. 274. The epistle sonatas, for example, certainly used an organ :) ) Schissel | Sound the Note! 09:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistranslation of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik into English

In German, "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" can only be translated into English as "A little serenade", and NOT as "a little night music." I say this for two reasons. First of all, "night music" and "serenade" are not at all equivalent, "serenade" having a very definite meaning, while "night music" does not mean much of anything specific in English other than something musical when it is dark out. Eine Nachtmusik in German is A Serenade in English! Secondly, there is a problem here with the English word "little." In English, "a little" often means "some", as in this case: "a little night music" can only mean "some night music." By contrast, in German, "kleine" cannot mean "some", it can only mean "little," as in small. So the better hyper-literal translation into English would be "a small night music", which makes no sense. The only alternative is to use the only possible correct translation: "a small serenade." Ajrocke (talk) 13:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The German language's propensity to use compound words always makes these literal translations interesting. In this case, though, a literal translation might actually be just as appropriate. Is Nachtmusik actually a German word? It was my understanding that Mozart made it up to Germanize the word "serenade" (sera means evening in Italian). (As an aside, that makes 'serenata notturna' oddly translate to 'nighttime evening music'). Anyhow, if Nachtmusik is indeed a German word, then your translation should stay the "correct" one, but if Mozart indeed made up the German word, then I think the literal translation stands on equal footing and a few sentences spelling out its etymology would be appropriate.DavidRF (talk) 17:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to change it (for now), but I'm thinking that for such a well known title, such a difference should seriously be backed up be a source. You may be right, but it's not what most people call it -- in the English speaking world any way. In fact...tagging. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
These comments by DavidRF and Melodia are interesting; I had not considered the possibility that Mozart was coining a German word here. In response, I would say three things. First, even if "Nachtmusik" was a novel neologism at the time of composition, it is a neologism no longer. I repeat, "Nachtmusik" means "serenade" in modern German, and no citation for that is necessary -- it can be found in any German-English dictionary and is therefore "common knowledge." Second, even if one were to insist on translating Nachtmusik as "night music", then "a little night music" would STILL be wrong as a translation, since "a little" in this context must be interpreted as "some" -- that is a different (hence incorrectly translated) meaning. One would have to translate it as "a small night music." I don't think anyone would want to advocate that. Finally, one must ask, if Mozart was coining a word here, what did he MEAN by that word? The answer, I think is clear. Eine Nachtmusik = a serenade. It should be translated "a little serenade." Can we therefore agree to remove the tag? Ajrocke (talk) 17:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Places that discuss the title are here: [1] [2] [3]. I wish I had more concrete references, but I'm not at a library right now. Mozart had used the Night Music title before in his "Lodron Night Music" of K247 and 287 which are classified as divertimenti and not serenades. Plus, there are "notturni" which also means "night music" which were common in this period as well. Its a famous enough title and an interesting enough topic that it deserves a small paragraph of discussion in the article. I don't think we should feel the need to be terse here and settle for one and only one correct translation. A short discussion would make the article better. DavidRF (talk) 18:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)