Talk:Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina

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User:Emir_Arven called me pathetic for adding prominent figures.

Mehmed-pasha was a Bosniak. Connecting Mehmed-pasha with Serb origin because he was born Christian is anachronism. --Emir Arven 10:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
No, not because he was born Christian, but because he was born Serbian. Isn't it logical then to count him? Calling him Bosniak would be incorrect - anachronistic --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Stjepan II was main enemy of Serbs in 14th century. There is no proof that his mother tongue was Serbian. This is redicilous. Many Serb historians tried to forge his documents. His mother was a daughter of Hungarian king. Serbian-held territories? Are you kidding me? You should learn how to use terms in correct historical context, but I have to say that this is redicilous.--Emir Arven 10:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
His mother was Jelisaveta Nemanjic, daughter of Dragutin Nemanjic. And you said: Many Serb historians tried to forge his documents. This is POV. Could you prove this? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
To be honest, I think that you are not historian. Because historian doesnt base his writings on Serb propaganda (I know that you say you are not a Serb, just Orthodox, but this is too obvious). Real historian seeks the truth, put corrcet information in the articles and fight against propaganda and mythology. We could all had seen yesterday how Serb Radical Party could forge the truth. When Milosevic died, they immediately said that he was killed by international community (ICTY)?! The same thing happened in this article. When you said that Vladimir Corovic wrote that Stjepan II was Orthodox, which was false (after I checked and proved it to you), then you wrote this article and put him here. Historian?...plz...--Emir Arven 11:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Explainations

Mehmed-pasha Sokolović. Please see the talk page. The arguement still lasts, and I suggest that you remove him from the List of Serbs before removing him from here. Also, you put him on the List of Bosniaks. Understand, it can't go both ways, either leave him here; or remove him from the List. Because what you're doing here is POV-pushing. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I am aware what is your intention, but as usual you can continue to count their bloodcells and to bargain here or to read some books and give real contribution to this project.--Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It's funny that you started firing the word bloodcells the moment I used them once talking to you. You're a "fast learner" :-). It's not blood that matters. But culture, language and what they did in their life. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You also left out Ivo Andrić and Meša Selimović without explainations. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

What? You are talking about Ivo Andrić? I didn leave him out. You should really learn sometimes to tell the truth.--Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stephen Kotromanic

I wouldn't object the removal of Stephen II Kotromanić under normal circumbstances, but you put him on the List of Bosniaks - an even bigger historical concotion based on ...what Bosniaks thinl... and you won't allow him to be put in the Serbs even though Serbs consider him their ruler?

First this is not place for bargain. It is a shame that you do that.--Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
This is not a bargain. Just get it like this: You cannot invade a country and claim that it's rightful expansion for your nation/people and then complain when your country gets invaded by saying that it's wrong. Do you understand what I mean?
As I said earlier there was explanation in that list that he was Bošnjanin (older word for Bosniaks which are ancestors of nowdays Bosniaks). Ethnicity is the matter of identification, he identified himself with Bosnia, called his people Bošnjani.--Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
That theory is indeed actual, but unproven. So, Bosnians of Islamic religion decided that their official name would be "Bosniaks" - thus they discriminated Christian Bosnians. You see, this is the root of all Bosniak nationalism - where Bosniak nationalists try to present their people as "legitimate people of Bosnia" and other nations (Croats and Serbs, respectivly) as "intruders". It reminds me of Serbian nationalists that used the numerious historical documents & accords to prove that Bosnia is historically a Serbian Land. So, the continuation between Bosniens and Bosniaks is no better than the medieval Serb Land of Bosnia - which you (and I) acuse of being propaganda. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You also said: His mother was a daughter of Hungarian king. Which shows that you didn't read the article at all. His mother was a Serbian Princess, Jelisaveta, daughter of King Stefan Dragutin.

You could conclude what I meant from my earlier comments on this topic. I meant, her mother (mother of Jelisaveta). Unfortunately I made lapsus calami and you misused it. --Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, errare humanum est. I thought that you meant that. It's OK, mate. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the charter of Stephen II of Kotroman: to have and hold to the end of the world moveless. And for that have put I (lord) ban Stefan my golden seal, to be believed, everyone to know and see the truth. And to that are IV charters..a.. two Latin and two Serbian, and all are sea-led with golden seals: two are charters in lord ban Stefan and two charters in Dubrovnik. And that is written under. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

No it was not a part of his chart. But a sentence which was added at the end of the chart, by a Serb scribe from Dubrovnik. It is well known case of forgery. All four original documetns were lost. And you didnt even translate that added sentece well. It was about scripts, not languages, as you know, there is no Serb script. I just cant believe that you are capable of putting all this false information just because of spreading Serb propaganda. Real historian would never do that.--Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
A well-known case of forgery? Could you prove it? What I presented was a scanned copy of his charter (see to the lower) present at the Dubrovnik Archive - you only put some historian's quotations. Aren't you being at least a bit one-sided? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
If you want me to repeat my answer once again (I told you the same thing in the talk page of Stjepan II), I will do that, because you are ready to misuse things. Let me remind you of your weak knowledge. This is what you said:--Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
1. He never called his people Bošnjani. There is no trace for that.
2. His father, Kotroman was a German knight and his mother a Serbian Princess.
3. There is no evidence that the transcript was written by a Serbian scribe. Please bear in mind this when zou edit the page. Thanks you. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Are you kidding me? His most famous chart shows that he called his people Bošnjani all the time. It is called: "Povelja bana Stjepana II Kotromanica Dubrovcanima" from 1332. Look here. I'will put it here in old Bosnian. It starts with the words "If Bošnjanin do this or that..." People in Bosnia in that days called themselves Bosnjani. It is well known historical fact: --Emir Arven 08:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC) 2.His father was not a German knight. It was an assumption because of his name Kotroman. Some historians tried to connect his name with Germans, but it was never validated. --Emir Arven 17:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

3.There is. Mak Dizdar presented his research in Antologija bosanskih tekstova. --Emir Arven 17:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

4. Please bear in mind this when you try to spread Serb propaganda again. --Emir Arven 17:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

5. Due to above reasons, your articles should be reviewed. And you wanted to become an admin? --Emir Arven 17:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chart of Stjapan II from 1332

(August 15th 1332)

Ako Bošnjanin bude duzan i pobjegne - da mu nije vjere ni ruke od gospodina Bana.
Utvrdi zakon ko je prvi bio medju Bosnom i Dubrovnikom, da zna vsaki chlovjek, koji je zakon bil: :Ako ima Dubrovcanin koju pravdu na Bošnjaninu - da ga pozove pred gospodina Bana ili pred njegova :vladaoca - roka da mu ne bude odgovoriti.
Ako Bošnjanin zapsi da nije duzan - da mu nareche priseci samoshestu, koje ljubo postavi Banj rod. :Ako bude podoban od Banova roda kto - da mu su porotnici od njegova plemena, koga mu hotenje. A toj :da se zna - da ne moze tehej pobjegnuti, a vece ne moze pred nikoga mu narechi.
A kto Dubrovcanin ubije ali posjece u Bosni ili Bošnjanin Dubrovcana - taj pravda da je pred :gospodinom Banom, a osud da grede Banu na njih.
Ako bude svadja Bošnjanina z Dubrovcaninom u Dubrovnici - da sudi knez dubrovacki i sudje, a globa :opcini.
Ako Bošnjanin uhiti Dubrovcanina za konja, a on bude ukraden ili uhushen, a pravi Dubrovcanin: "Moj :je konj vlasti" volja: "Ja sam ga kupio, ne znam od koga", volja povije od koga je kupljen, volja :priseze samoshest - cist duga da bude.
I ako Bošnjanin bude duzan, a pobjegne iz Bosne z dugom - da mu nije vjere ni ruke od gospodina :Bana. I ako Bošnjanin izme dobitak dubrovacki na vjeru, i knjiga bude u Dubrovnici, ako knez i :sudje poshlju da je knjiga prava - da je vjerovana, da plati Dubrovcaninu i bez prestavshtine.
Ako li tat ili husar uzme Dubrovchaninu u Banovu vladanju, kto se uvje - da plati Dubrovchaninu i :bez prostavshtine, a gospodinu Banu vsaki sest volova na svoju glavu - i da se ne vrate.
Ako rat bude, chesa Bog ulishi, medju Bosnom i Dubrovnikom, da gospodin Ban da rok Dubrovcanom sest :mjeseca, da si podju u Dubrovnik slobodno - na to im je vjera gospodina Bana Stjepana. A Dubrovcane :da zivu Humskom zemljom u njih' zakonu - u prvom.

You didn't need to bring it up. I already thanked you there for offering a valuable source. Just, what's the relevancy of that to the Bosnian Serbs? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another removal

You removed Luka Vukalović, a liberator from Ottoman rule. Why? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is his contribution to humanity. --Emir Arven 17:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I explained to the low. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emir, what in Earth's name are you doing?

You wrote in the edit summary: Nemanjići are Bosnian Serbs, nonsense?! this is really more than anachronism, this is not serious.

God knows what are you talking about... Could you explain?

You also removed the House of Njegoš totally unexplained. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not know what's your goal here, but please, kindly; stop pushing it. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

First, you have to learn how to use terms in correct historical context. Then you have to learn what is ethnicity, nationality and anachronism. That is not my problem. --Emir Arven 17:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you clarify what you mean, please? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Bosnian Serbs is newer date term, used by western media. For instance Slobodan Milošević is mentioned as a Serb leader or Serb war crmininal (not important for this example) or even Serbian. On the other hand Radovan Karadžić is Bosnian Serb war criminal, and Mile Babić Croatian Serb war criminal. The point is that Serbs are Serbs, but western medias used that term to locate them. As you know Serbs in Bosnia never called themselves Bosnian Serbs, just Serbs. Sometimes it is even insult for them.--Emir Arven 17:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
An insult? Please, read all pre-1939 documents. All Bosnian Serbs were simply called Bosniaks. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Contradiciton. Btw, during Bosnian War Serbs changed every possible name that had smth to do with Bosnia. For instance, they changed the names of all those towns that had word Bosnian in its name: Bosanski Samac (Bosnian Samac) was changed to Srpski Samac (Serb Samac). Bosanski Brod to Srpski Brod, Bosanska Kostajnica to Serb Kostajnica etc...I can give you many other examples...--Emir Arven 18:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
My friend, I think that your problem is that you cannot let it go (the war). Anyway, what does that have to do with this? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emir's part

1. Ivo Andrić - nah, it couldn't upload him. You removed everyone else, so I asumed that you removed 'im too. Sorry, ol' chump. Errare humanum est.

2. You didn't explain why you removed the House of Njegoš from the article. Nor why did you wrote this senceless: Nemanjići are Bosnian Serbs, nonsense?! this is really more than anachronism, this is not serious. in the edit summary. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

3. Luka Vukalovich was a prominent individual. He fought for the Bosnian people and Bosnia-Herzegovina; he eventually fought for a better status of the majority of Bosnia's people. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

4. You hadn't commented your removal of Meša Selimović from the article either. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

5. Bosnian Ban/Herzog Stephen II of Kotroman

[edit] Stephen II of Kotroman

Let's cross again: here's a scanned copy of the Bosnian ruler's charter:

Which when translated from the Serbian or Croatian Slavic language means:

to have and hold to the end of the world moveless. And for that
have put I (lord) ban Stefan my golden seal, to
be believed, everyone to know and see the truth. And to that are IV
charters..a.. two Latin and two Serbian, and all are sea-
led with golden seals: two are charters in lord ban
Stefan and two charters in Dubrovnik. And that is written under

Next to that, we know with certainity that his mother was a Serbian Princess - Jelisaveta Nemanjic.

You mentioned that you put Stephen II Kotromanic on the List of Bosniaks because Bosniaks learn about him and because what Bosniaks think. By know, only Serbs have made the most thurrow researches into his life and in the Serbian historiography he is considered a Serbian ruler. And yet you placed him at the List of Bosniaks. You can't declare wars and say wars are when someone declares on you.

You also put a charter showing that he called his people Bosnians (according to a theory, Bosniak ancestors). So what if he ruled them? He ruled also the Orthodox Serbs, who could be found in the eastern portions of his realm; and who formed the majority in the Hum (Bosnian coastline).

Also, a source states that he was Orthodox Christian (the Serbian Orthodox Church being the only autocephalous Orthodox Christian Church present there), but you have denied that source based on several arguements, so I am going to acknowladge you on this one. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tvrtko

Well, Tvrtko's great-grandfather was King of Srem, Serbs, Rascia, Zeta, Travunia, Dalmatia and Zahumlje Stefan Dragutin of the House of Nemanja. This family link was very important to Tvrtko, because it allowed him to inherit the Serbian throne.

Tvrtko had formed a special genealogy between 1375 and 1377: A Stefan kralj, brat Milutina kralja, Uroša drugog, koji Srem držaše, sa svojom supružnicom Katalinom, ćerkom ugarskog kralja Vladislava, rodi Urošicu i Jelisavetu. I Jelisaveta rodi tri sina: Stefana bosanskog bana, Ninosava i Vladislava. I Vladislav rodi Tvrtka bana i Vukića.

In the English language: And Stephen the King, brother of Milutin the King, Uroš II, which Srem held, with his wife Cathlyne, daughter of the hungarian King Vladislav, had Urošica and Jelisaveta. And Jelisaveta had three sons: Stephen, the Bosnian Ban, Ninoslav and Vladislav. And Vladislav had Tvrtko the Ban and Vukić.

His signatory declaration was: Po milosti božijoj kralj Srbljem, Bosni i Pomorju i Zapadnim stranama

In English language: By the mercy of God King of Serbs, Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western lands.

And finally, here's Tvrtko's edict to the Republic of Dubrovnik itself, so that no further confusions are yielded:

Image:Tvrtko.jpg
250px

Here's another exerpt of Tvrtko's statements: Takođe i meni, svojemu rabu, za milost svojega božanstva darova procvetati mi mladici bogosadnoj u rodu mojem i udostoji me dvostrukim vencem da oboja vladičastva upravljam, prvo od isprva u bogodarovanoj nam zemlji Bosni, a potom - kad me je gospod bog udostojio naslediti presto mojih praroditelja, gospode srpske, jer ti behu moji praroditelji u zemaljskom carstvu carstvovali i na nebesno carstvo preselili se - vidim ja zemlju praroditelja mojih posle njih ostavljenu i ne imajući svojega pastira. I idoh u srpsku zemlju, želeći i hoteći ukrepiti presto roditelja mojih. I tamo otišavši venčan bih bogom darovanim vencem na kraljevstvo praroditelja mojih, da budem u Hristu Isusu blagoverni i bogom postavljeni Stefan, kralj Srbima i Bosni i Pomoriju i Zapadnim stranama.

In the English language: Also me too, my slave (correct translation: God's servant) , for the mercy of my divinity giftedth me with divinity youth implanted in kin mine and giveth me with the double crown to both realms rule, first from the first in the God-given land of Bosnia, and then - when Lord God bestowed me the heritage over the throne of my forefathers, Serbian Lords, because those were my forefathers in the Earthal Empire reigned and to the Kingdom of Heaven crossed - I see the land of the forefathers of mine after them lefted and not having their own shepherd. And I went to the Serbian Land, wishing and willing to acceed the throne of my forefathers. And there leftedth I crowned was by the God-given Crown of the Kingdom of my forefathers, to be in Jesus Christ's name faithful and God-imlaced Stephen, King of Serbs and Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western Lands.

In the middle of the edict could be seen: родитеља мојих господе српске or in the English language: My parents Serbian Lords.

At the bottom of the edict can be seen: Краљ Срба or King of Serbs in the English language.

[edit] Mehmed-pasha Sokolovich

This arguement has become long overstretched and needs no more explaination than present on Talk:Mehmed-paša_Sokolović.

[edit] Disputed section

Several names noted in the section are actual at least of dual nationality such as Ivo Andric and Emir Kusturica. There should at least be a note that clarifies this. Djindjic is noted as a revolutionary and as much as I can maybe agree with that it sounds POV. For few others it is questionable how significant is their relation to this ethnic group, such as that oscar winner who's father was from a town in Bosnia. It looks like counting blood cells. And there is a dubios statement about Njegos dynasty that needs citation --Dado 19:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't see why is Djindjich's Democratic Revolution is seen POV. If he didn't exist, there would've been another Srebrenica massacre who knows where, Kosovo, Vojvodina... or even Belgrade perhaps? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Ivo Andrić is by all means an ethnic Croat, but he changed his nationality openly, like can be seen in his curriculum vittae kept at the University of Prishtina (Serb). --HolyRomanEmperor 20:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Emir Kusturica is by all means a Serb. He always kept saying that and, appearently, his father was an Islamic Serb. Recently, Emir has converted to Serbian Orthodox Christianity accepting the name Nemanja, and said that his family was Islamic for 250 years only to survive the Ottoman onslought and that it's time to return to the old faith. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

We could put a note saying that Ivo Andrich was an ethnic Croat, but I consider that the main subject are the Bosnian Serbs here, and his article (and the presence on the List of Croats) is more than sufficient, I think. However, on Emir's part; I see it pointless to note a note. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
On Karl Malden; well Karl Malden is an artificial name, and his name's still Mladen Sekulović, and he's and Orthodox Christian Serb, so I don't think that it's disambiguitive. You should than argue Mila Jovovich (Serbian origin) or John Malkovich (Croatian origin) - but that's far too heavy. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval figures

I think that I have already given enough arguements to them. Naturally, I would leave them from the list, but I saw similiar notions, Dado, at the List of Bosniaks; so I thought that I could apply the same logic. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Republika Srpska - Serbian Republic

I heard on the trial BiH vs SCG that they use this phrasing, so I changed it. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mesha Selimovich

Now, I think that the removal/controversy over this writer is unnecessary. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Territorial distribution

Due to the serbian warfare in Bosnia between 1992-1995 serbs are today the territorially most widespread nation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is POV. Serbs formed majority on 53.3% of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the war. After the war, they comprised majority on 49% of BiH's soil. Ofcourse, many have return to the Una-Sana region, but it's still only a slight increase, and it's POV anyway. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] House of Petrovich-Njegosh

The House of Njegosh is originally from Bosnia, from where they moved to Herzegovina and lived in Drobnjak, below the Njegosh Mountain. From there they moved to the Old Montenegro, to the Katun Nachy (Katun Province), and settled in the village of Njeguši. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remaining stuff

The names Bosnian and Herzegovinian were removed unexplained. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] and...

The addition of "Serb" to the Herzegovinian clans. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Zoran Djindjic a Bosnian Serb?

Zoran Djindjic was born in Bosnia, but moved to Serbia at an early age (at least so I`ve heard). As far a I know, his father was a member of the Yugoslav Army. I`ve read somewhere, that his family originally comes from the South of Serbia. Does your birthplace define a special connection to the country? I mean, if I were Norwegian but born in Africa, would I call myself African if I moved back to Norway at the age of 3? Well, as I am not an expert on the whole subject, could someone give a adequate commentary? Thanks.

Yes, birthplace does define connection to that country. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 12:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
His father was probably posted all over. If his family didn't have history there, then he shouldn't be classed as a Bosnian Serb even though he was born there. I would include him in the list though...--estavisti 15:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I see that Bosniak nationalists did not missed to post their POV about Serbs ("innocent Bosniaks persecuted by evil Serbs"), but why they did not wrote anything in Bosniaks article about Bosniak Ustašas from WW2 (Handžar division, etc.) who slaughtered many Serbs? Double standards of course... PANONIAN (talk) 01:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serb Republic

Firstly, as a native speaker of Serbian and English, it strikes me as utterly idiotic that anyone can deny that Republika Srpska means "Serb Republic". Not only is that the correct translation, but it is widely used by magazines sucha as The Economist (one of the major weeklies of the English speaking world, with a circulation of about 900,000 AFAIK). Also, Googling "Serb Republic" gets more than a million hits. So I really can't see what Emir's problem is...--estavisti 15:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Constitution of Republika Srpska as well as Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina in English, it is wrong. [1]. Republika Srpska is the term used in English, because this entity was never recognized as a state, it was formed and based on genocide. --Emir Arven 16:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Regardless = non-notable as the latter. It is verifiability that matters - and the "Serb Republic" is more notable. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no Ivo Andric mentioned!!! --Djordje D. Bozovic 21:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] False information

The article is full of false historical information, disputed names, unsourced parts, and never verified terms about the war in Bosnia. --Emir Arven 22:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

For instance: The Government of BiH declared independence anyway - which was not accepted by the federal government of Yugoslavia...What federal government? Yugoslavia stoped to exist much earlier when Slovenia declared independence. --Emir Arven 22:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Just put POV tag until all sides agree. Kruško Mortale 13:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Few things

1) Ljudevit Posavski. There is no source that he run to the Serbian ruler in western Bosnia, and not to place Serb (source of the river in old-croatian), nor that there was a Serbian state which included western Bosnia.

Yes there is - the Royal Frankish Annals. --PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Have you read those? Please be kind and qoute mention of the serbian state in western bosnia... (and not the place called srb=which is equivalent to the well in old-croatian:), if it would be called by nation of serbs it would be in plural ergo srbi...).

--Ceha 20:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

2)Časlav included just eastern and central Bosnia in its state. Why should be hidden that western and northern Croatia was part of Croatia at that time?

No; the whole geographical Bosnia was included in his state. --PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Early medieval Bosnia included only teritories between Vrbas and Drina south of todays town of Maglaj (so excluding kingdoms of Soli and Usora). Una was in the middle of Croatian state, not it's border. So it is not whole of today's Bosnia, but rather just eastern and central part.

--Ceha 20:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

3)At the begining of the war Serb made 31.4% of Bosnian population (see bosnian census)

A number declared as Yugoslavs. ---PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
And you know which ones of them did it? Bravo! Can you tell me am I going to win the lotery also?:)

--Ceha 20:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


4)Croatian war operations in western Bosnia came with authority of President Tudjman, and Croatian command. It also came with cooperation of Gouverment of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Not at first. At first they were on self-initiative of Ante Gotovina; President Tudjman later authorized it to save Gotovina's but. With cooperation only in 1995; especially not in 1993-1994. --PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Before Oluja started Croat forces were present in western Bosnia(Glamoć, Grahovo) in agreement with Bosnian forces (Washington agreement of 1994). Your claim is ... amateristic:) and unvalidated

--Ceha 20:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

5)Define ethnic cleansing. Serbs in so called Krajina weren't exiled from their homes by Croatian army, but they run of themselves. Do you have the data that there were 250 000 of people?

250,000 is stated both by the UN and the ICTY. Serbs in so called Krajina weren't exiled from their homes by Croatian army, but they run of themselves. Please re-read that which You wrote... LOL :D --PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Well isn't it a difference when somebody throws you out of your home(things which krajina serbs done to non-serbian population) and when you run from it because of rumors what will happen when army runs out of your village?

--Ceha 20:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


6)Western Bosnia hadn't secided in 1995 but in 1993

In 1995 it declared full independence. --PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure? Is there some source for that?

--Ceha 20:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


Othervise, article is higly POV, and should be cleansed of things which could not be proven or there is insuficiall data for it. Ceha 18:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Fix it then and be bold. --PaxEquilibrium 15:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't have time for it. And I surely wouldn't like to create "shitty" article.

--Ceha 20:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Changes

Mehmed-pasa was a BOSNIAC OTRHODOX that covnerted to Islam not a Serb. Not every orthodox is Serb you know. Husein-kapetan was a BOSNIAC hero not Serbian. Kulenovic wasn´t Serb, Kusturica is and Selimovic could be. Andric was a Serb probobly.

The Montenegrian House of Petrovic were as you say MONTENEGRIANS whata re they doing on the Bosnian Serb page? Same thing for the Montenegrian Arhbishop. And that map doesn´t show the real deal since there is just a little Serbs in Una-Sana canton becuse when it was liberated they fled with the chetniks becuse they had been on their side during the war and feered revenge.

Man Serbs stop annexing everyting that goes to rhe orthodox churh or once did, and off course all of the Bosniac writers that some time decleraid as Serbs ´couse they didn´t have the rightto be Bosniacs! Izetbegovic did it to are you gonna put him on the list? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.217.80.225 (talk) 14:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Explanation

Please stop reverting common knowledge facts just because you disagree with them. If you have any sources to contradict the article as it stands, then produce them. I returned the map, as despite the ethnic cleansing ("liberation") of Serbs from those areas, they have returned since the war. finally, I would request that you try to control your passions and refrain from personal insults based on nationality. --Еstavisti 15:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The Name section currently reads:

"The Serbs are one of the rare Slavic nations who kept their old names that they had in the old Slavonic motherland. Beside the Serbs, only the Croats kept their old name. The other Slavic nations got their names after the migration from the old Slavonic motherland. According to some historians and slavists, like Serbian historian and linguist Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, Slovak historian and slavist Pavel Jozef Šafárik and Czech slavist Josef Dobrovský, all the Slavs in the beginning called themselves the Serbs."

1. I suppose the Sorbs in Germany also kept this name. They call themselves serby.

2. I know it is widely accepted that Serbian is a very ancient name for Slavs, but is it the original name? I would like a source for that.

3. The old Slavonic motherland is very interesting, but where was it and did it exist? Source please.

4. How did the Croats keep "their old name" if "all the Slavs in the beginning called themselves the Serbs"? --Sasper 23:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kotor

Kotor mentioned here together with Desnik here, city in medieval Bosnia is not Kotor that is in Montenegro today. That city was called Katera and most historians presume it is situated in village of Kotorac near Sarajevo, muncipal of Istočna Ilidža.