Talk:Septuagint

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Archives

October 2001 to December 2006

Contents 1 Table 2 Wikiprojects and Overtagging 3 AfD's 4 Date 5 Common Era 6 LXX is a version 7 Genesis Comparison 8 Changing opening of intro 9 Christian Use

[edit] Table

The List of Books of the LXX is missing "ΩΔΑΙ", after "ΨΑΛΜΟΙ" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.116.40 (talk) 06:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose I should explain what I did. Mostly I wanted to take better advantage of style features to get the layout rather than attempt the space things out with   and so on, but I couldn't resist making other changes along the way.

As the foregoing discussion indicates, it's really an error to use "MT" to refer to the Hebrew text as it existed at the time the LXX was made. The third column purported to give titles of the books from the "MT", and where there the LXX had additions that column was naturally blank. Yet the titles weren't really from the MT, but were the usual names of the books from English-language Bibles. We had "Exodus" instead of Shemot, just to use an example where the titles had widely divergent meanings. I therefore tried something else by way of trying to indicate the usual titles in English of the Protestant canon found in most English Bibles, which is identical to the Jewish canon. Yahnatan picked up on the implications of what I actually put there and filled in the missing books. But in that case we ought to be consistent. I left the second column largely as I found it and tried to characterize it with the title I gave it. But I'm starting to think that column really ought to contain a transliteration along with a translation where the usual English name doesn't convey the sense of the Greek, or where the English name is a transliteration whose meaning is lost on the general reader. This need not be done with personal names unless they're startling. (e.g. Joshua -> Jesus) IMO, anyway.

I cut the notes that were at the bottom because I didn't see how they helped. The reader need not be told what LXX stands for if he read the article; MT was eliminated from the table and therefore needed no explanation there; and I couldn't tell what that bit with the Apocrypha was all about.

Just another quibble. Yahnatan marked books in the LXX but not the Hebrew with asterisks in the third column. I suggest either italics or by shading the entire row differently. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, I numbered the extra Psalm 151 in Greek although as far as I know it's not commonly referred to that way. However, I could not locate the Greek-language name of the Psalm in any of my references. Hopefully someone can correct that. (Although the title is rather long and may be unwieldy for the table.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiprojects and Overtagging

Fortunately, the "Septuagint" article itself is rather stable, mostly readable, and largely informative, if not extensively referenced. As such, the article, in my opinion, has never benefited from the attention of Wikiprojects but rather from the efforts of individual contributors coordinated only through this talk page. My initial inclination was to consider the accumulation of the WikiProject templates nothing but overtagging. Another editor, however, suggested that an article need not in fact be improved by a Wikiproject for the Wikiproject to merit a template annoucing that it "supports" an article; the announcement of "support," it would seem, merely invites members of the project to participate. The editor specifically asked that one of the templates, up only for a week, be given a chance.

But the other templates were originally introduced over 6 months ago, with no noticeable "support" resulting. (Actually, even the week-old template was originally introduced some time ago.) If these templates are construed by the editor as useful because they invite participation from relevant WikiProjects, then the other ones I recently introduced should be respected as well. There is no policy or guideline I am aware of that invalidates that action merely because I have not chosen a username. 69.203.64.233 00:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed! All these projects are a distraction. Your (dramatic) point is taken and I am removing the templates. This article gets plenty of attention without all the "tagging". Guedalia D'Montenegro 03:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD's

Any body interested? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hebrew versions of the New Testament that have the Tetragrammaton Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tetragrammaton in the New Testament (2nd nomination) SV 19:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date

The problem I have regarding the origin of the "LXX" is its date. I have yet to find any manuscript support for any BC Greek Septuagint which is claimed to be dated as a BC document and quoted by Jesus or the Apostles. The earliest complete extant Greek manuscript is an AD one. What manuscript evidence are you using to establish a 3rd century or even a 2nd century LXX? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.102.136 (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no manuscript evidence. The evidence is in quotes and mentions in early texts, e.g., the New Testament, Josephus, and Philo. Rwflammang 18:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

True, there are no BCE codex manuscripts attesting to large tracts of LXX. But there is the Rylands Greek Papyrus 458, with fragments of Greek Bible from apparently Egyptian Jewish provenance (dated mid-2nd century BCE). And Papyrus Fouad (1st or 2nd century BCE) is notable for being entirely in Greek but for the Tetragrammaton, which is written in the Hebrew square script (ketav ashurit or ketav meruba`). And there are more (mentioned in this article with Rahlfs enumeration). Most scholars identify these fragments with the LXX as we know it from later evidence. In any case, they quite literally represent "the Old Greek" and are obviously Jewish/pre-Christian in origin.

—Hanina

[edit] Common Era

See the usage for Common Era for an explanation of BCE and CE's appropriateness in this article. SV 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LXX is a version

I think the new definition of LXX in the intro as a "collection of Jewish scripture in Koine" will be confusing to most new readers. While LXX seems to contain some books that were not originally Hebrew, these are in the small minority. The major significance of LXX is as a bible version, in fact it is the version par excellence. Considering its overall character, especially as noteworthy to the casual reader, the old definition in the intro was I think preferrable. —Hanina

I agree. That was a good edit you made, Hanina. Rwflammang (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genesis Comparison

At present, we have a comparison of Genesis 4:7 from Brenton's translation of the Septuagint and the Artscroll translation of the Masoretic Text. I think Brenton is a bit dated, and the Artscroll translation, for all its qualities, is not very well known. I think it would be best to use the NETS and NRSV translations here. NRSV is well known and fairly well regarded, and NETS was translated in imitation of the NRSV style; it is natural to compare the two.--VAcharon (talk) 19:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changing opening of intro

I have several objections to the recent change. Mainly, I can't make out what the point is of saying "It is the version of the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, which was used to form the Old Testament." That LXX is an OT version has already been stated. That it is the oldest translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek has also been noted. If this added sentence means to say that the Christian OT canon derives from LXX, that is inaccurate for Catholics and Protestants. If the added sentence means that the Christian conception of an OT (as opposed to a New Testament) derives from the LXX, this should be sourced, and—again—Christians who use other canons may object by pointing to the original Hebrew as the original Old Testament. If the editor feels a discussion is in order of Tertullian's introduction of the terms "OT" and "NT" at a period when all Christian OTs derived from or were LXX, that would be appropriate in the "Christian use" section.

Initially, I thought the intent of adding that sentence, specifically the reference to Tanakh, might have been to identify MT as the text translated by LXX; which cannot be maintained.

Regarding the "rearrangement" of the opening of the first sentence with the opening of the second sentence, I see the result as less satisfactory:

• Alexander, if he belongs here, shouldn't be in the lead sentence. He had no direct involvement in the creation of the version, in history or in legend.
• Saying that LXX is the first of "several Koine versions" is imprecise because at leat two of the Greek versions that immediately come to mind (Symmachus and Aquila) are not exactly Koine.
• True, LXX was largely translated from the Hebrew Bible, and this is noted in the second sentence. And "version" is generally a synonym for "bible translation." But I recommend keeping the opening as "version of OT" to minimize controversy, as another editor previously wanted to stress that some of LXX may not derive from Hebrew originals (see the discussion above, "LXX is a version").

—Hanina —Preceding comment was added at 01:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Use

This section seems a bit under-sourced. There's one source which is literally an unreferenced Geocities page (ref's 24&25). There's also some wording about passages being undeniably corrupt which seems a bit inaccurate and I'm at a library right now and I'm going to take a look at that book. Since there is some overlap on this book (reference 5) I'm going to check the references on the Jewish use while I'm at it. --Kraftlos (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've read through everything in the main print source for this section and I see no mentin of anything about the Green Orthodox church's use of the septuagint. --Kraftlos (talk) 08:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I put the reference to Würthwein at the end of that paragraph, not as a source for the Orthodox usage, but as a citation for LXX being "an indispensable witness to the text [of the OT], assisting in the emendation of many corrupted passages," see Würthwein p.70, bottom of the page. Regarding Greek Orthodox bibles, I don't think the paragraph's content is controversial. Any respectable print encyclopedia should be adequate to verify the information. Hanina (talk) 03:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to pull the second citation tag then. Could we get individual page references for all the Würthwein text rather than just have the same citation for every place the book is referenced? I still have the book out from the library so I'll try to fill in what I can, unless people think that's unnecessary. --Kraftlos (talk) 22:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that reference anywhere on page 70, or in the other septuigent sections. However, I have a 1957 edition here, and the references says 1995 eidtion. Could you point me to the section heading? Mainly, I'm having problems with the "undeniably corrupt" part. While it may be true that the book talking about certain sections of the masoretic text making no sense and a reference to the LXX helps shed light onto the passage, I don't think the author ever actually said the phrase undeniably corrupt. The phrase sounds a little NPOV as if to say "even they have to admit that the passage is corrupted". I think it could be worded differently. This is why I want to see the actual text. --Kraftlos (talk) 19:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The quote given in my last comment (of 4 May 2008) is pretty much the extent of it, but you can find it in chapter "V. The Septuagint," in the last paragraph of section "9. The Septuagint and the Hebrew Text."

Regarding this article, I don't remember exactly how the sentence in question arrived at its current wording, but I believe it remained stable in its present form for months before I provided the citation. In other words, while no one has until now objected to the sentence as POV, it is true that it is not really a paraphrase of Würthwein, but rather materially supported by Würthwein while using different wording.

Perhaps many would find offensive an assertion that MT as a whole is "undeniably corrupt," and more importantly the evidence runs contrary to that assertion. The sentence in this article, however, merely says that LXX is useful for reconstructing the text of the MT "whenever the latter is. . . undeniably corrupt," i.e. in the occasional circumstance of a highly problematic reading. If the word "undeniably" makes that point too strong, removing it wouldn't ruin the sentence. But it is my opinion that "undeniably" actually softens its criticism of MT; emendation of an MT passage is most warranted when it is undeniably corrupt, and is less indicated when the MT reading may hold up to scrutiny when compared to that of the versions, e.g. cases where MT is the lectio difficilior. Hanina (talk) 02:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for working with me on thisI got the feeling from Wurthwein that it wasn't so much that the passages were corrupt, but just so old that the original meaning of the passage was not clear. Also, I checked that quote out and in my version it says:

Certainly it is an important, indeed indispensable witness to the text. But it is only after careful assessment of its nature, its particular method of translation, and its history, that it may be used for text-critical work. Bertram has rightly said: "The Septuagint belongs more to the history of the Old Testament exegesis than to that of the Old Testament text. It can only be used as a witness to the text if its own understanding of the Old Testament text has first been made clear."

I'm not sure why its different, but it doesn't look like my version says anything about corruption (I wish I had your edition of the book). It makes sense that the reference was added after the wording was in place, however saying that it is useful when M is undeniably corrupt isn't really the same thing as saying LXX is useful to help interpret M when the original intent of M has already been established. The author also asserts that LXX quite possibly was translated from a form very close to M. --Kraftlos (talk) 08:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)