Talk:Sephiroth (Final Fantasy)

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Good article Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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To-do list for Sephiroth (Final Fantasy): edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Concept and creation - needs expansion, and there are unsourced statements ("..and it is said that it can only be wielded by Sephiroth. ") et al
  • Musical themes - interesting, but full of random sources.
  • Resubmit for GA
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Please read before editing:

  • The descriptions in the Biography section concerning the events in Nibelheim are not a mistake, nor are they incorrect. The information detailed therein comes from Last Order: Final Fantasy VII and Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII, which present the current canon version of these events.
  • Any discussion of these matters should occur below.
  • Be sure to read through the topics below, and if you want to ask a team of dedicated Final Fantasy editors for input, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy.
  • Be sure to date any and all comments that you make in discussions, and please sign your comments using ~~~~.

Contents

[edit] Delisted good article

I've delisted this as a Good Article. The article provides very little real-world context, with an empty "Concept and creation" section underscoring this face, it is in need of verification for some statements, and the writing is not GA quality, so it fails Good Article Criteria.--Wafulz 18:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

little real-world context? IT'S A VIDEO GAME—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.197.53 (talk • contribs)
There is a lot of "real-world" material out there, character development, inspiration and reception among others. See Link (The Legend of Zelda) and Dante (Devil May Cry) for example. -凶 03:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This is an awful article. Articles on video game characters should be short summaries with most of the information devoted to real-world info like the game's developer or who designed the character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.168.143 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 20 June 2007
IAWTC. --Potato dude42 05:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I think a good example when it comes to looking at the direction this article should be moving in is the article on Orion. Here's a proposition for the structure of this article based on that:
  • A brief in-universe overview at the beginning
  • A summary of the roles played by the character in its various video game incarnations (without going into unnecessary detail)
  • A look at the designers, artists and writers that brought the character together (naming and linking as necessary) and the various inspirations behind the character's creation (in particular, the relationship to Kabbalah and Christian mythology would be best discussed here)
  • Explorations of the academic interpretations of the role played by the character (where the bulk of the current article could be perhaps moved, given a bit of reworking to fit the new purpose; the philosophical evaluation of the Jenova/Sephiroth duality, for example, would be suitable for this section)
  • A section on critical response and appreciation of the character in relevant culture (zomg fanboi response lool)
  • An evaluation of its influence on future creative endeavour (such as Sephiroth's contribution to the success of the "long-haired pretty boy villain" character archetype)
  • A final brief piece on references made to it in the wider cultural sphere (webcomics, cartoons, succeeding Video games etc.)
It would need fleshing out, but it would do for a start. 131.111.200.200 00:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
And where do you suggest we find this information? I find it hard to believe that the people interested in this Article are going to write this stuff up. His fanbase is a little...off-kilter70.17.0.102 (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
On another note, the Concept and creation section is merely his phisical appearence. The section either needs to be renamed or changed accordingly.Narcissus0 (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Should it be mentioned

That Clouds Omnislash spells out "I love Aeris" which is the reason you are no matter what allowed to use it in the absolute final battle.


Should this page be spoiler-tagged, or could we remove the picture of Sephiroth killing Aerith/Aeris? While the game has been out for nearly ten years now, there's still likely someone out there who doesn't know that fairly major plot point.

~ In addition, PLEASE review your facts and STOP changing Reverse Sephiroth to Rebirth. Square's official translation is Reverse, as seen in the Character collection packages and in every book created on the subject. It's easy to mistranslate, but you have to realize that it's "Reverse" and NOT "Rebirth."

    Why does Sephiroth have his own page when all the other FF characters are compiled                        together?

No i would say the reason you can use it in the final battle allowed to use it is cause it looks cool right? I mean what a way to end the game with Cloud dicing up Sephiroth with a massive combo like that. As an interesting note, the next attack will kill Sephiroth, it dosen't have to be Omnislash. the reason i know is cause when i was fighting him he attacked me first then i counter attacked (due to counter materia) which then killed him.65.124.8.131 16:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Omnislash doesn't spell out "I love Aeris". Where and when did you see that (if at all) anywhere? And you can just counter to kill him (not due to counter materia because I didn't have it equipped and he still did it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.243.42 (talk) 22:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sephiroth/Seymour-Kingdom Hearts

< Sorry...but I NEVER seen any sources confirming Seymour taking any spotlights in the game, let alone replacing Sephiroth. : < *removed*

[edit] Manifestation

I found this in FFWiki:

"==Manifestation==

All manifestations of Sephiroth seen throughout the game — excluding flashback sequences and his real body at the Northern Crater and Core of the World — are Jenova's entire body under his control and with his appearance (the forms of Sephiroth seen from the Shin-Ra headquarters to the cargo ship that left Junon, at Nibelheim, the Temple of the Ancients, City of the Ancients, and in the Whirlwind Maze at the Northern Crater) and astral projections (the illusions seen at the Northern Crater prior to Sephiroth calling forth Meteor).

The Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, littered with information directly from the creators of Final Fantasy VII, stated that Sephiroth "was not content to become a mere puppet and assumed position of her mind and will." This implies that Sephiroth's appearances stem from him invoking his appearance through Jenova's cells, which are also stated to have shapeshifting properties.

In the game, Cloud's final confrontation with Sephiroth is purely mental/spiritual and takes place in the Lifestream, a final battle of wills. Sephiroth is defeated, and his soul dissolves back into the Lifestream. Even so, Sephiroth's true fate was revealed in Advent Children, as he sought to continue his "mother's" ghastly mission.

"===Sephiroth, the New Evolution of Jenova=== Sephiroth became the newest stage of evolution for Jenova, and anything "Jenova" does in the game's present day is simply Sephiroth invoking his new powers(UOG - "the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit"). When Sephiroth came into the picture, the minds of the two joined, and Sephiroth made himself the core of the viral entity that Jenova was, with his ambitions being fueled by its parasitic instincts and his desire to destroy all the humans he despised. Thus, his will manifested through Jenova's extensive psionic powers.

All of it is confirmed by the UOG, and it's official. Because of that I will post it in the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.246.36 (talk) 22:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

If no one have anything to say, I will post the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.246.36 (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.246.36 (talk) 02:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Although this would seem broadly accurate, it is not the case that the relation is entirely one of subjugation of one power by another. Both VII and Advent Children have shown that what we understand to be the Sephiroth that threatens the world is reliant on Jenova's physical presence in order for his influence to be tangible. At the same time, it's worth remembering that Sephiroth's Jenova "heritage" has a large influence on his personality during Crisis Core (which could be understood as the "consuming of Sephiroth's spirit" to which the UOG refers), and that this provides the inspiration for his resolve to travel to the Promised Land through the lifestream. To call the human Sephiroth the "Core" of this merger is to miss the point that the two develop a symbiotic relationship, wherein the distinction between them becomes incredibly fuzzy.
Rather than saying that Sephiroth becomes a sort of Jenova mkII through his acceptance of Jenova's influence, which is one abstract way of looking at it, the full truth might be more clearly expressed if we say instead that the result of the gradual synthesis of the human will of Sephiroth and the instinctively parasitic life-form Jenova is a separate and distinct personality that emerges from the constructive tension between these two aspects of the collective; a personality that is referred to as Sephiroth throughout the events of Meteorfall and the recurrance of Geostigma as a result of the relative familiarity of those who confront it with its human aspect. 131.111.200.200 23:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

This entire section is a bunch of speculation that, at least given the evidence presented, is not given nearly enough support to state it as matter-of-factly as it is. Taking a single sentence from one source, and extrapolating it into an entire theory about the basic mechanics of a game universe (or any universe), just doesn't work. As such, I'm deleting the section from the article until someone can either find hard evidence to prove all of the statements within it, or present it as a theory and then state alternate theories to counter it. Agharo 02:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last Order retconed by Crisis Core

Well Crisis Core is being played, and it's been confirmed by players and myself, to have Last Order completely retconed.

Sephiroth is tossed into the Mako pit by Cloud. Tifa doesn't wake up to have that touching reunion with Cloud either.

I won't change the article or anything because I figure you editors should talk about it and discuss it first. However, I just thought you should know, Last Order has been retconed.66.76.60.163 19:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Makoeyes987


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAcAQhlqwbw

Here's a battle of the Nibelheim massacre from Crisis Core66.76.60.163 08:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Makoeyes987

[edit] Vandalism

User with IP address 70.56.129.74 made several nonsense edits about Stage6 usernames on this, and Cloud Strife's Wiki page - reverted Kakarott 04:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone seems to have added something about George Bush near the top of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.253.66 (talk) 02:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revamp

This article needs a major revamp. It is very messy, both grammatically and content wise. The introductory section is almost a page long by itself. Im working on revamping it in my sandbox editor. If wikipedians want to help, a development section needs to be written with citations. Actually citations would be great for everything as there are not too many here. This can be great article if we work together! : ) EDIT: So, if I get this straight, Last Order and Before Crisis are the canonical versions of the FFVII story now? My Sandbox - Noj r (talk) 05:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, according to the Official guide book that came with the Potion (77777 limited edition), AC, BC, CC and DC are all canonical. MythSearchertalk 06:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I will leave Crisis Core out of the character biography because it has not been released in the states yet. It can be added later. EDIT: I have revamped the Sephiroth article, and I doubt many will object to its changes. The page was an absolute mess. It still needs lots of work.

  • The "development and Appearances" subsection needs to be written and cited
  • CITATIONS! This page is in desperate need of them, any help would be appreciated. I have already corrected some false statements and added citations to some.

Anyway, thanks for the help. - Noj r (talk) 06:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have time to go through the article for now, if you can list it here in a short bulletin form, I will see if the ultimania guide I mentioned above got what you want. (There is no cn tag in the article as well) or you can do so in my talk page, since I don't watch other character pages except Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. MythSearchertalk 14:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for offering to help. The main problem with this artcle is the lack of real-world information on the character. If the Ultimania guide says anything about Tetsuya Nomura's role in designing Sephiroth, his inspirations, Sephiroth's development as a character in general, that would be great. I can take care of citing the character biography, but a development section needs to be made with real-world information and citations. If the ultimania guide doesnt say anything along those lines, then you dont have to worry about it. - Noj r (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sephiroth-killing-aerith.jpg

Image:Sephiroth-killing-aerith.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wings?

Is it known why Cloud and Sephiroth both have one wing? Dio Only Uses a Knife (talk) 05:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I know, Cloud doesn't have a wing outside of Kingdom Hearts. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 21:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's was used in Kingdom hearts to show that in a way, Sephiroth was a part of Cloud. His Left wing, was associated with Sephiroth's right wing. Ofcourse, only the 'dark' Cloud had a wing...and that was only in Kingdom Hearts.--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gamer_X_31 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamer X 31 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Caption

In regard to the caption of the image on this article and on Cloud Strife. Let's get this straightened out. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC))

The anon's edits to Sephiroth and Cloud were mucho better. I've seen many articles format their articles in this form. I really don't understand why these should be counted as vandalism. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
—I would like to point out that User:CIreland has deemed the edits by both parties as not vandalism. If I may ask, what about the omission of the word "artwork" do you consider to be better. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
I beg your pardon? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
You stated that the edits done by the anon were better. The main difference was that the word "artwork" was removed from the caption. I'm asking if you could clarify what about that do you feel makes it better. I only ask so that the answer be listed for others. (Guyinblack25 talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The anon's version was this on Sephiroth and this on Cloud; IMO, the word "artwork" is just unnecessary and the designer's name should be wiki-linked because that follows the same formatting seen on several other articles, like the Dragon Ball, Bleach and Naruto-related ones. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont' see the need of wikilinking to Nomura as his name is wikiliked in the "designer" parametre. Whether "artwork" should be included or not is not really a big deal. I, personally, think it should be there, because it displays the artwork of Sephiroth and Cloud, not the in-game super deformed or FMV versions of them. In conclusion, I would like to say that there should be a concensus for these changes, even though they're minor, as a lot of other FF character articles have the first caption. The Prince (talk) 11:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct. These changes should apply for the other FF characters as well. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 15:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Given the number of FF characters and similar video game character articles, perhaps this discussion moved to the VG Project's talk page so a consensus can be reached. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC))
Whatever seems best I guess. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GAN

I've failed this as it requires substantial rewrites to meet criteria.

  • Lead - first paragraph is fine. Second paragraph should be reorganized, with the voice actors before the reception, and something on the conception, since it is not summarized.
  • Concept and creation - needs expansion, and there are unsourced statements ("..and it is said that it can only be wielded by Sephiroth. ") et al
  • Appearances - while the appearances in other media is a bit long, otherwise the length is fine. But it lacks any context to someone who hasn't played the game. I have no clue what's going on starting with "Notions of Sephiroth's apparent death are put into question"... wtf? What apparent death? See Master Chief (Halo) for an example of appearances.
  • Musical themes - interesting, but full of random sources. Why does a fan creation on OCRemix merit mention?
  • Reception - anything on merchandise? I would hope there is more on the character out there, but its decent.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Combining appearances

Not all into one, of course, but just into Final Fantasy VII, Related Final Fantasy VII appearances, and Other appearances. The rest of the character profiles for FFVII have this format. The Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa articles work great, with Aerith's having a GA status; The Tifa and Cloud articles are both B-class. The Vincent and Zack articles are both Start status, but Zack is fairly new and Vincent's article just needs tons of work with out-of-universe context. Anyway, with a little condensing, the article will look cleaner and the DoC appearance wont have to be put under Appearances in other media. But before I started, I wanted the go-ahead from this article's editors, as this article is B-class and the change isn't exactly small, I guess. I could also try condensing the Other appearances section.WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Due to the lack of response, I'm going ahead and doing it. If someone dislikes it so much, then they can change it. The section still need some work, and I don't know much about his Before Crisis role, so I'll just mention what I know about it and leave it at that.WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 19:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Appearances

Final Fantasy VII was released in 1997. Crisis Core was released a decade later in 2007. Thus Sephiroth appeared in Crisis Core after appearing in Final Fantasy VII. The Appearances section currently does not reflect that. Kariteh (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The release date and the fact that it is a prequel can be mentioned in the paragraphs, however that is no reason to tag the entire article as "in-universe" particulary after the major trimming that was done. Now since Sephiroth doesn't appear until mid-point in FF VII the current format serves better to explain his "apparent death", it would make no sense mentioning it in two different sections. - Caribbean~H.Q. 14:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean the other opinion "makes no sense". The real world ordering is recommended by guidelines, specifically Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). This makes particularly more sense because Last Order and Crisis Core give us different accounts of the same fictional events. The current article tried to somehow reconcile the anime and the game, but it shouldn't. See this paragraph from the link:
For example, if a fictional TV detective loses a partner in the line of duty, taking an in-universe perspective will obscure whether this occured in the backstory, the pilot or the main series. If the partner died in the pilot, but is the subject of little-known prequel novels, then an in-universe perspective may describe the partner in excessive detail. If later episodes have events which suggest the dead partner never existed, this is impossible to describe from an in-universe perspective, and editors will have to try to explain away such continuity errors themselves, leading to original research.
Last Order and Crisis Core are two versions of the same fictions. They should be presented in the order in which they were released because there simply isn't any other way to do it correctly (we can't assume one of the two versions is "real" and the other is "false"; they're both fictional). Furthermore, while I hate to take other articles as examples to follow (because of Wikipedia:Other stuff exists), I would like to point out that even the Star Wars articles follow this logic and deal with the classic trilogy before the prequel trilogy. Kariteh (talk) 15:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You are not understanding me, Crisis Core and Last Order are indeed different and they are separately descibed, my post was refering to repeating the incident as it occurs in Crisis Core and the original Final Fantasy VII twice since the incident is is virtually unchanged in both, its just a matter of working with the language which is something that I haven't done yet. - Caribbean~H.Q. 15:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Final Fantasy VII should be the first work described in the Appearances section. Crisis Core should be described after. Kariteh (talk) 15:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
If you see the failed GAN you will notice the problem with that, Sephiroth is kept misterious the entire first half of FF VII, mentiong his "apparent death" in the opening is incoherent. - Caribbean~H.Q. 15:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Sephiroth is kept mysterious at first, that's why the section should explain that he was kept mysterious at first. Then it can mention that a portable game released ten years later expanded on the character's background story. It's only incoherent if you describe things from an in-universe perspective. Kariteh (talk) 15:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Just mention at the beginning of the FFVII paragraph that Sephiroth was thought to have been killed or give a little background. Then, later in the Appearances section, describe Crisis Core, Last Order, and all of his other Compilation appearances. If it would make people happy, I'll go through and change it to mention that he was apparently killed. Then Crisis Core can be moved. If we did that, though, we'd also have to go back to the last format wherein there isn't an FFVII Film section, but a Compilation section just as all of the other FFVII characters have. It'd also be a place to put his DoC appearance; it's small, but it matters somewhat.WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Waait. Confusing sentence

"Aerith succeeds in summoning Holy, but Jenova, while in the appearance of Sephiroth, kills her before it can be activated. The white materia remains active, but unused. Later, Cloud procures the black materia, but is manipulated against his will into surrendering it to Sephiroth, who then summons Meteor and barricades himself inside Northern Crater, waiting for its arrival."

It just said that Jenova took that shape of Sephiroth and killed Aerith, but then it says he barricades himself?? This implies to me that after Areith was killed he actually went to the Northern Crater, then sealed himself. But am FMV shows (and implies) that the real Sephiroth was there the entire time. And I swear during the game one of the characters say something about it (its been a while since I've played the game)

Someone clarify this please in the article (and maybe a pic of him in the northern crater?)!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.221.194 (talk) 09:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Concept and creation thing

In the concept and creation section, it has a [citation needed] thing after "long sword, and it is said that it can only be wielded by Sephiroth."... I think it mentions that in the instruction booklet? --207.47.151.197 (talk) 00:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. I added the ref. Thanks for pointing that out. The Prince (talk) 08:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)