Talk:Sephardi Jews

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[edit] where

Where is used sefardites as the language name? -- Error 03:09, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That term seems nowadays to be very rare. Here are some examples of the few current uses on the Internet. RK 14:13, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sefardites used as a synonym for ladin

They all seem to be in Catalan and refer to the Sephardim rather than to the language. -- Error 03:29, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I heard the term used this way a few years back in, of all places, Ashkenazi synagogues, by older members who are uncomfortable with changes in Hebrew pronunciation. In many synagogues in the USA, younger members have learned Hebrew in Israel or choose to use modern Hebrew pronunciations, while some older members continue to use Ashkenazi Hebrew. Sometimes older Yiddish speaking members are vaguely aware that there is a Judeo-Spanish, and confuse it with contemporary Hebrew pronunciation. --Metzenberg 09:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, here's an entry on cultural history that doesn't have a single date attatched to it, not even a century. Is Sephardic culture so perfectly uniform through time? How about a few links to particular congregations, like New York's Sheareth Israel? Wetman 12:30, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect usage of terminology

Good place to start a discussion.

Another contributer insists that the use of the term 'Sephardi', to effectively denote all non-Ashkenazi Jews (apart from those from Ethiopia), should not be qualified as being incorrect. Regardless of whether such use has become common (as is the case amongst Ashkenazi Jews in Israel and elsewhere), It ought to be recognised as incorrect terminology for the purposes of this article. Sephardi Jews are as distinct a group as Ashkenazi, Arabian, Indian, and Ethiopian Jews. They have a distinct Iberian culture which has absorbed aspects of Balkan, Greek, Turkish, and other cultures following their expulsion from Spain and Portugal in the 1490s. The language spoken by the various Sephardic communities is based chiefly on Spanish, with additions from Hebrew, Turkish, and other languages.

Regardless of how common it such be, it is plainly incorrect to use the term to encompass Jews who share no such cultural background. Pavlvsrex

Everyday language in Israel today includes Iraqis and Yemenites in the word "Sephardim". That is a fact. Whether or not it used to mean that, or whether or not you believe Israelis should use the word that way, is completely irrelevant. Clearly you don't understand the process by which language evolves in meaning over time. There are tons of word in every language which have come to mean something different from what their original meaning was. The article states both the original meaning and the current meaning clearly and hides nothing. Your word "incorrect" is your POV and does not belong there. --Zero 14:50, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect Use of Terminology II

Oh, come-on! The term Sepharad DOES NOT mean only people from Iberia. That is a well known fact for anyone, who actually speaks Hebrew! Get it right guys...


Zero. This is not a reference to terms as used in Israel, or by Israelis for that matter. If you want to highlight the widespread (incorrect) use of the term by Israelis, then we should qualify it as such (as I have done).

Is this a happy compromise, or shall the war persist? Pavlvsrex

I agree with the above, that it should be deemed an incorrect usage. Yes, of course language evolves, but there are valuable distinctions worth preserving, especially in an encyclopedia. Aroundthewayboy 16:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US-Israeli irradiation

What of the 1950s massive irradiation of Sephardi children by Israel funded by the US?[1] 142.177.19.171 21:49, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It wasn't done to Sephardi children, technically speaking. I believe that crime against humanity was committed by the Israeli government (an Ashkenazi institution) upon Mizrahi children, but they are commonly called Sephardi by the culturally ignorant. Al-Andalus 02:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC).
Some people in Israel call Sephardi to any Jew coming from an Arab nation (i.e. Egypt) Asterion 08:46, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Intermingling and intermarriage

Hi folks,

Love the contributions you've made to the Sephardi section at Wikipedia. They have been very informative and extremely interesting. I just have a few questions concerning Sephardi Jews that I hope you people can answer. Since you're such authorities on Sephardi Jews, I think you can. My questions are as follows:

1.) Did the Sephardi Jewish communities that resided on the Iberian Peninsula intermingle and intermarry with the "European" populations of the Iberian Peninsula to any significant degree before they were they were expelled from Iberia (after 1492 and 1497)?

I doubt intermarriage was legal. However Conversos did probably intermarry, the richer the easier. --Error 02:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

2.) Many Sephardi Jews fled to territories of the Ottoman Empire, other locations in Europe, and the Americas following their expulsion from the Iberian Peninsula in the late 1490s and afterwards. Did they intermingle and intermarry with the "European" populations of the Balkans, southern France, Italy, England, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands (and its colonies Curaçao, Suriname and Aruba), Turkey, Spanish North America (Southwest United States and Mexico), Spanish South America and Brazil to any significant degree before the conclusion of the first Arab-Israeli War in 1949?

Probably only after conversion. However see Donmeh (and Jacob Frank?) for converted Sephardis that kept endogamy.
Check out the Crypto-Judaism article. It has good sourced links to genetic research of Latinos of the Southwestern United States and northern Mexico that self-identified as non-Jewish but show a good proportion as having inherited Jewish-specific genetic markers. There is also a link for the population of a state in Colombia where many are vaguely aware of partial Jewish ancestry, but possible Sephardic admixture shows even among the general population. Al-Andalus 02:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC).

3.) Many Sephardi Jews who were expelled from the Iberian peninsula in the late 1490s and afterwards fled to the lands of the Ottoman Empire. Did these Sephardi Jews intermingle and intermarry with the Muslim, Christian, and other populations living in North Africa, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen to any significant degree before the conclusion of the first Arab-Israeli War in 1949?

I'm no authority, but from what I've read, i would have to say probably very little if at all. What makes the Sephardic jews so unique is that wherever they migrated after the expulsion, they stayed together and formed new jewish communities. They had also escaped the Christians that persecuted (and expelled) them, and the Muslims that believed they were superior to the jews. Why would they intermingle/intermarry with christians or muslims following the expulsion? Common sense dictates they wouldnt have.--Subterfugest 03:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing your answers.

Best wishes,

Albert

[edit] Thanks!

Thank you for replying. I learned a lot from your answers! I'm just wondering, did Sephardi Jews and Italian Jews who settled in Turkey ever intermarry with the Byzantine, Khazarian and other Jews who lived there?

Best wishes,

Albert

For the relationship between Ottoman Sephardis and Romaniotes, I don't know. At least some Romaniotes kept apart with their Yevanic language.
In Northern Africa, the local Jews (Berber Jews?) were initially treated as inferior by the Sephardi, but I think that the Muslim authorities didn't distinguish the communities. Local Jews aspired to the higher position of Sephardis and used Spanish names. I suppose that they tried to marry the Sephardi.
--Error 02:14, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There were and are intermarriages, between Romaniotes and Sepharadim, Sepharadim and Ashkenazim, and all of these and Christians and Muslims. The latter were rare but how can one think they did not happen? In recent decades in Turkey marriages between Jews and Muslims have become less rare.

The non-Sephardic Jews of these areas are often called the Maghrebi Jews. The word Maghreb means "west" in Arabic. Berbers were a non-Arab people who lived in this region, particularly in the Atlas Mountains, and the Maghrebi Jews lived amongst them. The entire western Mediterranean region was referred to as the Maghreb in the time of the Caliphs, and both Jews and Arab migrated there from the Baghdad area. Ultimately, the wealth, population, and sophistication of the Jews of Spain eclipsed that of the Jews of Baghdad. Around 1000-1100 CE, about two thirds of the world's Jewish population lived in the Iberian Peninsula. The population in Ashkenaz was still tiny, while the communities around Baghdad in the east had suffered major economic setbacks. Good source, The Jews of Islam, by Bernard Lewis. I know a woman who is of Maghrebi ancestry on her mother's side (although her mother actually grew up francophone, in Paris). --Metzenberg 10:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you again

Thank you for the information. This is fascinating stuff you're telling me.

Best wishes,

Albert

[edit] A Minor Correction

You wrote 'Sefardim' in standard Hebrew whilst you should have written 'Sfaradim' for that's how it is properly pronounced in standard Hebrew.

As bizarre as it sounds, "Sephardim" is more widely used in English as the plural. The Hebrew pronunciations given, however, reflect the correct Hebrew plural, sfaradim. Tomer TALK July 6, 2005 00:20 (UTC)
Actually, in correct Hebrew, it should be sefaradim (סְפָרַדִּים) because of the shevá na‘. But the form sefardim (סְפַרְדִּים) is another correct form. ־־ Olve 05:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Which completely ignores my point. The plural used in English is generally "Séfardim" in true Ashkenazi style.  :-) Tomer TALK 22:49, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History lessons

This article has been educational concerning society and culture of the Sephardi, but the History section seems to pay more attention to praising wealth and status than instuctive of the actual history of the people. As one unlearned in this area, it would be appreciated if this section could be developed more along the lines of origins and events in the Iberian peninsula. Thanks. --Blainster 00:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical mountains of Sephar

Weren't these the caucasus? Gen 10:30 if so how come the term came to apply to Spain?

The same is said regarding Ashkenaz, which is apparently a Caucasian people. Jewish scholars suggest that these peoples started inhabiting Europe in the years 500-700, chased by the Huns. JFW | T@lk 20:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. BTW, who chased them to Spain? Also why does Sephar become Sephardi? what does the -di suffix indicate?

See Migration Period. Concerning the -di... sepharad is the Biblical term, and "-i" is the possessive form. JFW | T@lk 23:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
As for how the term came to apply to Spain, it's possible first off that the Pyrenees were regarded as analogous to the Caucasus. It's also possibly completely arbitrary. Tzarfath is a little hamlet halfway between [[Tyre|Tzor]] and Tzidon. How did its name come to be applied to France? Who knows. It makes for an interesting study, but ultimately probably isn't particularly important. Tomer TALK 00:13, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
And interestingly, there is an area of the Caucasus which in ancient times was called "Iberia". --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


As I understand Norman H. Finkelstein's (NOT Norman G. Fin...) explanation of the migration of Jews FROM Spain TO North Africa in the 600s, then back TO Spain with the invading Muslims in 711, in an invasion so massive that Spain's identity was swallowed up by the Arabs, it helps to explain that what Sephardim call an "expulsion," Spaniards call the "reconquest" of their homeland after 800 years of Muslim-Sephardim occupation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Without walls (talk • contribs) 21:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Jews came over with the Arab occupying force, but then formed a subject group in the Islamic polity in the same way as the Christians, so to speak of a "Muslim-Sephardim occupation" is tendentious. "Swallowed up" is inaccurate too: Jewish and Christian identities were freely tolerated in Muslim Spain, while Jewish and Muslim identities were completely suppressed in Christian Spain, in a process of ethnic cleansing that is generally regarded as an impoverishment. The reconquista and the expulsion of Jews were two separate processes; Jews continued to live for centuries in the northern Christian states, and were only expelled after the conquest of Granada. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted Reverts

To the anonymous user(s) who has been adding a polemical view on Torquemada's origins (not totally relevant to this article in all cases): Would you be so kind to provide some references substantiating your version? Te lo digo tambien en castellano, si vas a editar el articulo, te agradeceriamos al menos te dignaras a citar tus fuentes. Un cordial saludo, Asterion 21:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

With reference to Torquemada I quote an excerpt from The Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews section of the Spanish Inquisition Wikipedia article:
"...Don Isaac Abravanel, who had previously ransomed 480 Jewish Moriscos of Malaga from the Catholic monarchs by a payment of 20,000 doubloons, now offered them 600,000 crowns for the revocation of the edict. It is said also that Ferdinand hesitated, but was prevented from accepting the offer by Torquemada, the grand inquisitor (sic), who dashed into the royal presence and, throwing a crucifix down before the king and queen, asked whether, like Judas, they would betray their Lord for money." (bold added) 207.67.145.152 04:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the quote, but it proves nothing. The quote doesn't suggest anything that even remotely alludes to the edict not being of the making of the catholic monarchs. Furthermore, it states that Ferdinand "hesitated", and does not say whether he had or hadn't definitely made up his mind to revoke it. Following that, the actions and words attributed to Torquemada - described as the events for that specific date - does not allude the responsibility of the expulsion of the Jews upon him, or anyone other than the monarchs for that matter. I will proceed with the revert of the article. Al-Andalus 06:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC).
The quote proves that Torquemada insisted on the expulsion. Perhaps there is a better word than "insist" but you insist on removing the entire edit on that account. What is your reason for doing so? I am going to reverse your reversal since there is no rational basis for your reversal... 198.172.203.232 06:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
As I'm sure many other people insisted. But this still does not change anything, and it remains largely irrelevant. The fact remains that the Alhambra Decree was issued at the order of the Monarchs, and was signed "I, the King, I the Queen, Juan de Coloma, Secretary of the King and Queen, which I have written by order of our Majesties." Nowhere on that decree do I see Torquemada's name.
If anything, the sole responsibility should not even be placed on the royal couple, but on the queen alone. It was she that was the religious zealot. Ferdinand had always been hesitant prior to any supposed coercion by Torquemada. I would presume any hesitation of his would have had more to do with the fact that his grandmother was herself a conversa. "Isabel la Católica" was so named by the pope because of her religious zealousy, and again, this had nothing to do with Torquemada, which at the end of the day was appointed by her also.
Futhermore, Manuel I of Portugal was indeed pressured by Isabella into expelling his Jewish population- which history tells us was something he DID NOT want to do. However, unless he did, Isabella would not allow for her daughter's hand in marriage to him. Well, the end of that story is that he did end up getting married to Isabella's daughter.
As a note, accounts are that, although he unwillingly did give the order for the expulsion of Jews from Portugal to placate Isabella, he also ordered the closure of all ports of exit for the same date of expulsion, thus enabling him to trap a large proportion of the Jews, making them the property of the crown. This itself is a point of contrast, in Spain the Jews that remained (ie. couldn't get out in time) were persecuted and burnt at the stake, but in Portugal those that remained (ie. were purposely trapped by the king) were kept as crown "property" to excersice their specialty trades. He couldn't afford to loose all those merchants, physicians, educators, which were such a valuable asset to his kingdom, and as a bonus, all the profits of their labour were now be for the king. While many did leave Portugal, proportionally (compared to the expulsion of Spain which was almost absolute) many did "remain". According to some studies, it is estimated that of Portugal's current population (99% of which is Catholic professing), a quarter unknowingly descend from at least one ancestor who was a Jewish convert to Catholicism. This number does not take into account crypto-Jews, those who outwardly profess Catholicism but both know they are descendants of Jews and secretly adhere to the faith (some of which have outed themselves and rejoined mainstream Judaims after 500 years of secrecy). Anti-Jewish memory is still fresh for many Portuguese that know they are Jewish descendants; remember Salazar's dictatorship and instituted catholic zealousy? And by the way, he is also speculated to have been a descendant of conversos. Al-Andalus 20:25, 10 October 2005 (UTC).
My dear friend, even if you are overall correct about King Manuel's treatment of the Jews, your statement that a quarter of the Portuguese population is descendent of Jews is quite ficctional (and has tradicionally been used by anti-semitics and racists to acuse Portugal of being a "racially impure" nation...), and there are no serious studies proving that fact (and of course everyone today is descendent of everyone in some ancient point in history... still, genetic studies of the portuguese population demonstrate the obvious - it's basically a southwestern european population of paleolithic origin). Remember that severe expulsions or migrations of Jews from Portugal would only be strong in the 16th century, namely after the massacre of Lisbon and the formal establishment of the Portuguese Inquisition by King John III in 1536. The Ogre 13:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"anti-semitics and racists to acuse Portugal of being a "racially impure" nation... " What? The opinions of anti-semetics and racists do not worry me. Your preocupation that if a certain proportion of the Portugues population (whatever the percentage) possesses at least one ancestor (out of 64 or 128 ancestors, I don't know) who was a Jewish convert to Catholicism would make the Portuguese "racially impure" would only hold true if you were also one of those that held those racist and anti-semitic beliefs. Even with this admixture, the Portuguese would still be European, caucasian, and of "southwestern european paleolithic origin".

In any case, I don't know how my post became a battle field regarding the "whiteness" of the Portuguese. After stating a position that differs from yours, my opinions is nonetheless that the Portuguese are European regardless. So there is no need to stress. Al-Andalus 00:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)'.

Hello Al-Andalus. I do not have a preoccupation with the fact that «a certain proportion of the Portugues population (whatever the percentage) possesses at least one ancestor (out of 64 or 128 ancestors, I don't know) who was a Jewish convert to Catholicism». And no, I'm not one of those that upholds racist and anti-Semitic beliefs. The concept of racial purity has no meaning for me and is discredited by Anthropobiology. I probably did not express myself in the best of manners... What I meant was that there is probably no difference between the Portuguese and other European nations regarding these types of ethnic admixture! So, one should not use the argument of admixture to diminish the persecutions and oppressions suffered by Jews (and others...) in Portugal. Furthermore, it is true that these types of arguments (either with Jews, Moors or Black Africans) were and are used by racist thinkers as a traditional way of discriminating against southern Europeans. Mind you, even if the facts itself were true they would not in themselves diminish southern Europeans in any way. I'm really not concerned with "who's more white" issues. What I am concerned is with the survival of certain types of arguments that, used in specific manners (such as singling out Portugal, even if for the best of reasons), are tools of discrimination and bias! Hope I made myself clear this time... The Ogre 17:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
"one should not use the argument of admixture to diminish the persecutions and oppressions suffered by Jews (and others...) in Portugal" My post was to exemplify that indeed Jews HAVE SUFFERED "persecutions and oppressions". The argument and citation in my earlier post were given to exemplify that very point! Re-read my post. Nowhere have I attempted to "diminish" anything. So, the tangent in which you directed my post is still unexplained. Al-Andalus 02:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Conversos

User:Al-Andalus deleted "It can be extended for those baptized Jews from the Iberian Peninsula who returned to Judaism." with "Converso status irrelevant". I restored it because the previous redaction did not make clear that there were people who were not expelled in 1492, since they were baptized, but who were later considered Sephardi when returning to Judaism. If you can rephrase the paragraph with more grace while keeping the info, do it. --Error 00:43, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I thought I had kept that bit in the article. It states it on my edit summary. "RV 71.38.199.37's edits (Torquemada's responsibility by "insistence" unsubstantiated. Converso status irrelevant) to The Ogre's version with info introduced by Error". My mistake. Al-Andalus 01:19, 9 October 2005 (UTC).
Actually, I've just gone to compare past versions on the hisotry page, and I DID KEEP your contribution as I stated on my edit summary. It wasn't me that deleted your contribution, so it wasn't my mistake. It was user "198.172.203.236" that deleted it when he reverted his page back to another of his own making, and while doing so he also reverted all the reversions (reverions needed because of his own vandalisms) and contributions that had been made since his last vandalisation. Not only your contribution had been deleted, but mine and user Flauto Dolce's edit as well. I am going to re-insert both my reversion of the introduction (introductions ONLY!) while keeping Flauto Dolce's and your edits (which I REPEAT I didn't delete!).
Also, you quoted me as having stated "Converso status irrelevant". Yes, I did write that, but read it in its proper context (ie. in the context of user 71.38.199.37's edits). It was in relation to my reversion of the page because of 71.38.199.37's edits that alleged the responsibility of the expulsion of 1492 was on Torquemada - which also cited his alleged status as a converso - and not on the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella. Al-Andalus 01:31, 9 October 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Geographies

Isn't there a sephardic community in Romania? The writer Elias Canetti is, I think, a sephardic jew from Romania. No, he was born in Bulgaria, as he expalins in his autobiography.

The sephardic jews, according to my knowledge, also settled in parts of Albania and Croatia. Danton_20

[edit] Comparison to "Ashkenazi?" Dutch Jews

The following quote is the contribution made by user R.S.

"A notable exception to the distinct Ashkenazi and Sephardi naming traditions is found among Dutch Jews, where Ashkenazim have for centuries followed the tradition otherwise attributed to Sephardim. See Chuts."

Are not a great proportion of Dutch Jews actually a branch of Sephardim that fled from Spain to the Netherlands in 1492, and the reason why they have the same tradition is because they are Sephardim? The edit makes it seem as though the Dutch Jews are Ashkenazim. The first Jews to settle in what today is United States territory were Ladino-speaking Sephardim from the Netherlands. Al-Andalus 08:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC).


R.S. Replies:

Initially, at the turn of the 16th and 17th centuries, the Jewish residents of Amsterdam were practically exclusively Sephardim. By 1700, the Ashkenazim had outnumbered them. Fifty years later, Amsterdam's Jewish population was overwhelmingly Ashkenazi.

The following are estimates of Amsterdam's Jewish population from various sources, included in "The History of the Jews in The Netherlands", Blom, Fuks-Mansfeld and Schöffer, 2002.

1610: Sephardim 350, Ashkenazim 0
1700: Sephardim 3,000, Ashkenazim 3,200
1750: Sephardim 2,800, Ashkenazim 14,000

The reason for the shift is that Sephardim were initially welcomed by the City of Amsterdam because they brought wealth and international trading influence, whereas the Ashkenazim were mostly poor, displaced agricultural workers and were turned away. With few exceptions, the Ashkenazim settled in small communities in the provinces where they subsisted typically as pedlars and hawkers. When the Dutch lost the global race for colonial power, the economy went into decline, the provincial Ashkenazim could no longer sustain themselves, their communities collapsed (unable to maintain a minyan for prayer), and they fled in increasingly large numbers to the cities.

R.S. 17:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Al-Andulas: the far majority of Dutch Jews is Ashkenazi. There used to be a large Sephardic community in the 16th and 17th century, but already in the 17th century, Ashkenazi immigrants from Poland and Germany exceeded the number of Sephardim. Nowadays, the Dutch Sephardic community consists of some 270 families, on a total Jewish population of 25,000 - 30,000. Rick86 11:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crypto-Jews to be included?

I sense an ongoing struggle as to whether or not Crypto-Jews should be included in the initial definition and I hope the following will help smooth any future decisions.

1: Someone has made it clear that the initial definition is intended to be strict and as such it is seen to exclude those who remained in the Iberian peninsular to be converted. Perhaps that was intentional.

2: Those who remained to be converted, and whose descendants later became openly practising Jews, did not relinquish their Jewish faith and practice. They practised in secret and at great personal risk.

3: At least some rabbinic wisdom pays no heed to conversion under duress.

4: As a general rule, the Crypto-Jews quit the Iberian peninsula as soon as opportunity arose, which was after the Dutch Provinces declared independence from Spanish rule in 1581.

5: Among them were some of the most influential Jewish scholars in history, including the Abendanas, the Orobios and Spinoza, to name but a few.

6: Crypto-Jews were instrumental in the success of the Amsterdam Jewish community, which was to be the world’s major centre of Jewish culture for centuries after.

In the event that their inclusion is to be reinstated, I suggest the following in the hope that it will be acceptable to all concerned.

“Many other Sephardim who were unable to leave the Iberian peninsula were coerced into conversion, but continued to practise Judaism in secret until such time as their descendants were able to migrate to religiously tolerant countries, most notably the Dutch Provinces after 1581. See Crypto-Judaism."

I have no axe to grind, except to say that I’d like this article to be incontrovertibly meaningful to all who are inspired to read it.

R.S. 01:25, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it is not a struggle. I just want to make clear that returned Conversos are also Sephardi and Al-Andalus thinks it is already clear. My problem is that I don't know how to ellegantly express that within the current redaction.
I also want to make clear that Judaizant Conversos are not the whole of Conversos. Some were convinced Christians, others were raised as Christians, others were exposed to both religions and even Classical culture and became agnostic philosophers.
About the RS proposal, I am not sure that those who did not leave "were unable to leave". Wouldn't it be that they lacked the commitment to the faith? Comment on that.
--Error 22:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The strict definition states that the Sephardim were expelled at specific times depending on whether they were in Spain or Portugal, and that gives the impression that all who remained are excluded from the definition.

I agree that one must ask why they stayed and an obvious answer is that, judging by the immense wealth they eventually took with them, they were weighed down by possessions. There was in fact considerable negotiation with Spanish and Portuguese authorities before they were allowed to sell their property and it was only then that notable families finally quit.

However, I'm sure it wasn't as simple as that. Accepting expulsion would have involved leaving wealth and control to be seized by the authorities, which would have been giving in to political pressure; plus migration would doubtless have involved splitting up families and so on. As a test of their religious conviction, I take into account the danger they put themselves in by practising Judaism in secret. There are plenty of historical references to imprisonment, torture and horrible death, and they wouldn't have risked that unless they were very, very convinced of their faith.

In the case of those who finally went to Amsterdam, there were also protracted negotiations with the City of Amsterdam to make sure they would be able to set up a suitable community without the restrictions they were attempting to avoid. History indicates that those negotiations were very successful.

It took a very long time but overall, the crypto-Jews finally succeeded in retaining their religious identity, keeping immense wealth away from their suppressors, and using it to establish an immensely influencial Jewish cultural centre elsewhere.

I accept that the previously suggested addition raises the question of why they were 'unable' to leave, which would require a lengthy explanation best placed elsewhere, and so I suggest the following.

“Many Sephardim remained in the Iberian peninsular where they were coerced into conversion, but continued to practise Judaism in secret until such time as their descendants were able to migrate to religiously tolerant countries, most notably the Dutch Provinces after 1581. See Crypto-Judaism."

Note that the suggestion refers to crypto-Jews rather than Conversos so as to identify specifically those who maintained their faith and took the risks. Also, it is phrased so that it does not contradict the opening strict definition; it only adds that some did not respond to expulsion and practised Judaism in secret until later.

R.S. 01:22, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand the dig deal here. The definitions already says;
  • "In the proper sense, a Sephardi is a Jew originating in the Iberian Peninsula, or one whose ancestors were either among the Jews expelled from Spain by order of the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabel (as codified in the Alhambra decree of 1492), or among the Jews expelled from Portugal by order of King Manuel I in 1497.
This already sets clear that it is a Jew originating in the Iberian Peninsula (whether expelled or still residing there as crypto-jews, marranos or anusim). It says OR those whos ancestos were expelled, it does not say only those whose ancestors were expelled. Is this not clear enough? What is the problem? Al-Andalus 05:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC).

I think the problem is that the word "or" implies that what follows is an alternative definition.

R.S. 08:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, that was not the original qualm that was raised. But if that is now the only problem, simply change OR to AND. And hey presto, problem is fixed! Al-Andalus 15:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC).
Actually, upon closer inspection I've realised that one cannot substitute Or for And in the wording off that sentence. That would make it worse. In that case it would imply that both criteria must be met to be a Sephardi - which is not the case. As I said before, the supposed issue here was that crypto-Jews, marranos and anusim still in the Peninsula needed to be be given a special noting as also being Sephardi, but this has no grounds to even be a problem, as the sentence already implies this categorically (Jew originating in the Iberian Peninsula [ie. still there or not], or one whose ancestors were either among the Jews expelled...) Al-Andalus 16:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC).

I don't know how or why it started. I looked at the article a few weeks ago and saw modifications being repeatedly made and withdrawn, which didn't seem very good, and I thought the problem was that the opening description seemed to exclude crypto-Jews, depending on how you read it. I have now made a small alteration which perhaps makes it both accurate and unambiguous. R.S. 17:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Genetic affinity

Has there been research done on the genetic affinity between North African Jews and the peoples of Spain, Portugal and southern France? Since the Sephardic Jews lived in the Iberian Peninsula and southern France for more than 1,500 years at least (before they moved to various countries in North Africa), wouldn't there be some genetic affinity between the North African Jews and the people of southwestern Europe today?

By what I can remembers, an in depth study on different Jewish population around the world and their genetic relationship found most Jews to be descended from ancient Israelites.

  • Ashkenazim were found to be a mixture of Israelite and indigenous Norther and Eastern European ancestry. The Y chromosome were overwhealmingly Israelite with some Central Asian markers (presumably the Khazars) but mtDNA was almost exclusively European. Being that Jewishness is inherited maternally, but Ashkenazi mtDNA is native European, Ashkenazi Jewish matriarchs were converts to Judaism, or the current Ashkenazi population would not be Jewish.
    The current literature by Behar, et. al suggests the mtDNA is of Levantine, not European origin. See below. 128.91.27.93 03:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Sephardim were found to be a mostly Israelite, with some Iberian admixture. This only holds true for self-identified Sephardim that have maintained the faith from the expulsion in 1492. Most people who identified as descendants of Sephardi Crypto-Jews (Texan, New Mexicans, Northern Mexican, and other Hispanics see Crypto-Judaism) showed to have some Sephardi ancestry but their overwhealming ancestry was the same of surrounding locals (local surrounding population could be either white, mestizo or mulatto).
  • Yemenite Jews were found to be a mixture of local Arab and Israelite.
  • Berber Jews were found to be mostly Berber.
  • Ethiopian Jews were indistinguishable from non-Jewish Ethiopians, and had little if any Israelite admixture.
  • Kurdish Jews were mostly Israelite with somee Kurdish admixture.
  • Persian Jews were Israelite with some Iranian admixture.
  • Indian Jews were mostly Indian with some maternal Israelite ancestry.
  • Non-Jewish Palestinians were found to be Israelite with significant admixture from various sources.

I will look the rest up, but that's all i remember for now. Al-Andalus 04:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC).

Thanks again for providing me with this information. Please post again if you discover anything new.

I have been very interested in this subject, and I have done a lot of work on the corresponding article on Ashkenazi Jewry. The first thing I want to say here is that this kind of genetic research is extremely limited in the conclusions that it can draw. It is based on haplotype analysis of only two segments of the genome: The Y Chromosome (men only) and the mitochondrial genome (men and women, inherited through maternal lineage).
I am often amazed at the "pop science" conclusions people draw from this kind of research. First of all, haplotype analysis is still in its infancy. The number of individuals actually studied is still tiny, and many of the genetic markers that are needed are probably yet to be identified. Furthermore, haplotype analysis is only useful if other populations have also been studied in relation to the subject population, and in many cases they have not been.
Another thing about haplotype analysis is that in the case of such Jewish ethnic studies, there are no random samples. If you want to study the Finns (a genetically very homogenous people) you can go out and draw blood from people who live in Finland and speak Finnish. But with Jewish ethnic studies, the researchers themselves choose their own sample, deciding how to classify their subjects. Yikes. Talk about subjectivity. Where is there even any pretension that there is statistical validity. --Metzenberg 10:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Recent papers by Behar in Am J of Human Genetics seems to show that Ashkenazi mtDNA was likely Levantine in origin (Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, Syria) although it shows significant founder effect. Most of the current Ashkenazi population is descended from less than 10 women (incredible, and accounts for large number of genetic problems). Another interesting fact is that the Talmud used is the Babylonian one; it might be plausible that a small number of men and a tiny group of women left Babylon between 400-700 CE and founded the Ashkenazi community somewhere in the Rhineland (France/Germany). Rashi and Rabbi Gershom are the first major Ashkenazi rabbinical scholars (c. 900-1000 CE). There were huge Ashkenazi population booms between 1800-1933 -- much like what can be seen in Kiryas Joel today (with women having 10-12 kids each!). The Holocaust unfortunately decreased the overall Ashkenazi population by 1/3. 128.91.27.93 03:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sephardim in Charleston, SC (and SC in general)

Do you (or anyone else) have information about or sources on the history of the Sephardic community in South Carolina? (Anon user)

Sephardic Jews and other Jews were indeed based mostly in and around Charleston, SC and along South Carolina's coasts until about 1800, and some people say/claim/believe that they were heavily involved in African slavery and the slave-trade in the early years of the USA (South Carolina being the state/territory at the center of the African slave-trade in early North America, eventually having more Africans than "Whites" living/working in the state!). From 1492 (when the Jews were largely expelled from Spain and the Iberian Peninsula: see Alhambra_decree and History of the Jews in Spain; many of them came to the USA) until about 1800, South Carolina (and especially the once bustling and VERY important North American city of Charleston) seemed to serve as the "center" of the Jewish presence on the North American continent and in the young USA. After 1800 the Jewish population locus was obviously shifted Northward, to NYC/Long Island/Northern New Jersey and other urban-areas in the North, and the once huge Jewish presence in Charleston and SC was largely forgotten and/or covered-up (but notice subtle clues such as the very early founding date of the College of Charleston, along with others). Either way, reliable/trustworthy/accurate records from this far back (1492-1800) are extremely spotty and unreliable, but there is NO QUESTION that Charleston and SC served as the unofficial center of the Jews in both North and South America until about 1800. Poke around the Internet a bit and you'll find some reliable info about the Jews in SC and especially Charleston, but be VERY careful what you trust; a good and reliable link can be found in the article entitled A "portion of the People". --205.188.116.132 08:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Very, very interesting. Someone should post info about Sephardim in the U.S. Aroundthewayboy 16:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Carolina slang way to say okay ... kopasedic. Not even sure how to spell it. I am just trying to spell it the way it sounds when people say it in the US South. A corruption of the Hebrew kol b'seder as spoken by South Carolina's sephardim. Does anyone know of a literary reference, or a lexicographic one? --Metzenberg 11:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Scalpal Ringworm" and the "Mass Radiation" of Some Sephardic Jews in Israel

For the person who removed the link someone else had added before, you could check Haaretz: "Running rings around the victims." for a less biased view. In any case, this story is about Mizrahi not Sephardi Jews. Thanks, --Asterion talk to me 19:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that clears up where this theory is coming from. -- joerg, 15:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

More info can be found here; even though it's from the infamous Jew Watch website, it wasn't actually written by that site's anti-Semitic founder and thus may hold SOME useful info. --205.188.116.132 07:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
More pertinent links, perhaps from a more "reliable" source (Barry Chamish): Ringworms AND 100,000 RADIATIONS - A REVIEW (Aug. 17th, 2004) [this looks like the original source of the above Jew Watch article] --205.188.116.132 08:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest surviving Jewish residence in USA belonged to a Sephardic Jew

According to the history page of Gomez Mill House. This individual fled with his family from Spain and ultimately to the Hudson River Valley in New York state. As a newbie, I'm not sure if this should be appropriate for the site.


looks good to me. Aroundthewayboy 16:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hakitia

I'm new on wikipedia, but want to make an assertment here. On the table languages, shouldn't we add the hakitia, language spoken by the north african jews (Morroco, Algeria). Some books have been righten about this language (those I know are in portuguese, sorry), search for: Abraham Ramiro Bentes - Os Sefardim e a Hakitia.

Hakitia is a dialect that mixes hebrew, as order jewish dialect, arabic and spanish, diferent from ladino that is old-spanish + hebrew.

Just don't know if a I can add this by my self or had to pass by your exams to write it on the pedia. If you want a more complete information I could right a wiki as contribution. --Murilolaredo 14:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References cleanup

I added the reference cleanup tag because the references listed should be matched up with the specific facts in the article which they document. -- Beland 20:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red Hair More Common Amongst Sephardic Jews?

Does anyone know of any research that could verify my hypothesis that red hair is MUCH more common amongst Sephardic Jews than among the Ashkenazim (who often have black and/or very dark brown hair). This often applies to men's beards too, such as the person may not be a FULL redhead but still has some trace elements of red in their hair and/or beard. These same people also often seem have lighter colored eyes than Ashkenazi Jews (whose eyes are often brown or darker in color, like their hair). Has anyone else noticed this red-headed/lighter-eyed "trend" amongst the Sephardic population? Thanks for any info that you can provide! --205.188.116.132 07:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personality Differences When Opposed to Ashkenazi Jews?

I've heard of Sephardi Jews being described as "fiery," "active," "angry," and even "militant" when compared to their "cooler," more saturnine Ashkenazi counterparts. Should this tidbit be included in the article or merely ignored as hearsay or stereotypes? The following text is copied/pasted direct from the "Seraph" article, and it seems to me that "Sephardi/Sephardic" and "Seraph" are closely related words and/or concepts.

From "Seraph":

The early medieval writer called Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite included seraphs in his Celestial Hierarchy (vii), which helped fix the fiery nature of seraphs in the medieval imagination. It is here that the Seraphim are described as being concerned with keeping Divinity in perfect order, and not limited to chanting the trisagion'. Taking his cue from writings in the Rabbinic tradition, he gave an etymology for the Seraphim as "those who kindle or make hot":

"The name Seraphim clearly indicates their ceaseless and eternal revolution about Divine Principles, their heat and keenness, the exuberance of their intense, perpetual, tireless activity, and their elevative and energetic assimilation of those below, kindling them and firing them to their own heat, and wholly purifying them by a burning and all- consuming flame; and by the unhidden, unquenchable, changeless, radiant and enlightening power, dispelling and destroying the shadows of darkness" (Celestial Hierarchy, vii)

Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologiae offers a description of the nature of the Seraphim:

The name "Seraphim" does not come from charity only, but from the excess of charity, expressed by the word ardor or fire. Hence Dionysius (Coel. Hier. vii) expounds the name "Seraphim" according to the properties of fire, containing an excess of heat. Now in fire we may consider three things.
"First, the movement which is upwards and continuous. This signifies that they are borne inflexibly towards God.
"Secondly, the active force which is "heat," which is not found in fire simply, but exists with a certain sharpness, as being of most penetrating action, and reaching even to the smallest things, and as it were, with superabundant fervor; whereby is signified the action of these angels, exercised powerfully upon those who are subject to them, rousing them to a like fervor, and cleansing them wholly by their heat.
"Thirdly we consider in fire the quality of clarity, or brightness; which signifies that these angels have in themselves an inextinguishable light, and that they also perfectly enlighten others."

END --172.155.32.59 12:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


Sorry but this unverified theory sounds too much like Original Research, which is not allowed in wikipedia. Regards, --E Asterion u talking to me? 12:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Sephardim in the U.S.?

I came here looking for info about how many American Jews are of Sephardic ancestry. I think it's a small fraction of the overall population, but I don't really know.


Someone in the comments above wrote about Sephardim from Spain being early colonizers of South Carolina.

Can anyone else incorporate some basic info about American Sephardim?

Aroundthewayboy 16:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The info-box in the article says that there are about 150,000 Sephardic Jews in the USA; check out this link for more info. --152.163.101.7 06:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I have attended services at Mikveh Israel in Philadelphia and I asked questions similar to yours. I wanted to relate what I experienced to my own background. Also, I studied American history in graduate school. I asked questions much like yours of the Rabbi and other members. I think the best answer to your question is that many of the Jewish families that came to the colonies or to the USA in the earliest days, before the larger Ashkenazi migration, may have assimilated, while most of the others eventually assimilated into the much larger Ashkenazi communities, while retaining some sense of tradition for a few generations.
In a few cities like Newport, New York, Philadelphia, and Charleston there are old congregations, but this does not mean that the modern members of those congregations are from families that have somehow only married others of 100% Sephardic ancestry for 300 years. Rather, a family that knows its ancestry might point to one or two great grandparents that were from old Sephardic families. In many cases, a pride in such a family history leads a family to identify with and affiliate with one of these modern congregations. Many Jews of primarily Ashkenazi ancestry, perhaps raised in secular environments, identify with the old American heritage that these Sephardic institutions have. They come to love the culture, music, style, and so forth. Since they have lost their connection with Ashkenazi minhag, they embrace Sephardic minhag. In this sense, they are Sephardic Jews by choice. Also, some modern members have come to the US in more recent immigrations. (For example, refugees of the Shoah from Thessaloniki and Rhodes.)
The earliest Sephardic Jewish families co-mingled with and assimilated into Ashkenazi Jewry in the same way that the German Jews (once distinct) have today largely co-mingled with the larger population of Jews (mostly Polish and Russian) that immigrated circa 1880-1920. You see names from time to time that you know are of Sephardic origin. Families that have such names are usually very proud of them. In my father's family, one of my great great grandmothers was Portugese Sepharidic, via Holland and England. Ask one of my cousins, however, and they would have no idea what that means. I would be the only one in the entire family that could explain it, and only because I studied European and American history at one time in my life. --Metzenberg 10:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
There are many Sephardim in the US. Huge community of Iranian American Jews in LA. 128.91.27.93 03:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish and Portuguese versus Oriental Sephardim

It is important to distinguish between

1. the 1492 expellees who settled in the Ottoman countries (Oriental Sephardim), whom Joseph Dan calls "medieval Sephardim" and

2. the later crypto-Jewish emigrants who reverted to Judaism in Western Europe (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), whom Joseph Dan calls "Renaissance Sephardim".

The part of the article that deals with the history after the expulsion blends information about the two groups in such a way as to suggest that all of it is true of all Sephardim. In fact the two groups followed very different trajectories (though the Haketia-speaking Moroccans were a bridge between the two). The bit about Ladino and Romances is relevant only to the Oriental group; the bit about literary circles in Amsterdam is relevant only to the S&P group. Also, nothing is said about important rabbis such as Isaac Luria, Haim Azulai (the Hida) and others who dominated the life of the Oriental group. This part of the article should be split. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Istanbul or Constantinople

Two different names have been used to refer to this same city in the article. Is there a particular reason for this?
Both occurence refer to the time after the Ottoman Empire's conquest, therefore Istanbul may be more suitable choice.
Also Salonik and Thessaloniki suffer the same inconsistency.
Alp, 13:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The European convention has generally been to use "Constantinople" for all periods until the end of the Ottoman Empire, and "Istanbul" for modern times. Similarly any book or article about Sephardim uses "Salonica" for the Ottoman period when many Jews lived there, and "Thessaloniki" when speaking of modern Greece. --Sir Mylesna Gopaleen (the da) 15:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I have to say that actually the majority of this dicussion and the complete main article are tendentious, that kind of information is a complete shame, you have to think about the emotions, dogmas, leanings, fanaticism of conceptions, ebullience of personal aspects hidden by academic speech, but you can't hidde at all, excuse but through your words everyone here showed your passions blowing up. I am sorry but I will irrelevate this article and also the majority of this comentary, I will try to find something less subjective. It doesn't care how qualified you are, but this issue doesn't depends of scientific knowledge. Some interesting information of the Sefardim is that important studies show that circa 17-35% of the brazilian people have at least one Sefardic ancestor, and the most important genealogist of Sefardic ancestry in Brazil said: the majority of the jews in Spain during the time of the persecution of 1492 became Conversos. There is also the information that circa 8% of Spanish people can be classified as jews. So don't act by your passions my good people, becuase when there is a strong will behind an argument, we can clearly mistrust it's intentions and purpouses. But gentlemans, don't forget, I don't want to appal or affront you, because being angry for any sincery criticism just because it reaches you, it is an act of imprudence. Thank you.

[edit] Image

People! Does everyone agree with the photo Arnie Gov added? It looks a bit "racialist"... to say the least! The Ogre 14:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Era-related edit.

I have undone an edit which changed a lot of century markers to Christian-specific annotation. That edit was inappropriate, as it is in direct contrevention of the agreed-upon compromise reached previously hereto, as expressed here. Tomertalk 06:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree. --Asteriontalk 08:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Jewish DNA ?

There is no scientifically acceptable standard for Jewish DNA. Dr. Robert Pollack, a professor of biological sciences and director of the Center for the Study of Science and Religion at Columbia University, makes the following important observation in his online article The Fallacy of Biological Judaism

"Unlike asking "Are Jews a family?", as historians have traditionally done, geneticists seeking to advise Ashkenazic families are also, in passing, asking, "Do Jews all share the same versions of one or more genes?" -- a question with a testable, precise answer. As no two people except pairs of identical twins have exactly the same version of the human genomic text, this claim could be confirmed or rejected by a search for versions of the human genome shared by all Jews and no other people. Given the historical context of the Nazi "experiment," it is all the more remarkable that Jews all over the world have been flocking to the new technology of DNA-based diagnosis, eager to lend their individual genomes -- each a surviving data point from the terrible experiment in negative selection -- to a revisiting of this issue of biological Judaism. At a recent meeting of the Association of Orthodox Jewish scientists and the Columbia Center for the Study of Science and Religion, it became clear that Jewish curiosity has provided sufficient genetic material to give a perfectly clear negative answer: There is no support in the genomes of today's Jews for the calumnious and calamitous model of biological Judaism. Though there are many deleterious versions of genes shared within the Ashkenazic community, there are no DNA sequences common to all Jews and absent from all non-Jews. There is nothing in the human genome that makes or diagnoses a person as a Jew."

[edit] 1.75-2 Million Sephardic Jews? LOL

Guys, if you dont know something, just dont write or change it. Only 200,000 Jews were expelled from Spain over 500 years ago. Are you telling me that in 500 years the Sephardic Jewish population has growth from 200,000 to 1.75-2 millions? Are you crazy? or it is more likely that you included the Morrocans, Algerians and the other North African Jews among them (They aren't called Sephardic. They're called Mizrahi Jews). Please change this bullshit. And who said there are 5500 Sephardic Jews in Morroco, and 1,500,000 Sephardic Jews in Israel? WTF? There are no more than 200,000-300,000 Sephardic Jews in Israel. North African Jews (and Asian Jews), at least most of them, are not Sephardic Jews! They're called Mizrahi Jews!!!!!Hirschelreich 13:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just 80,000 Sephardim in US - Impossible

There is no way that there are only 80,000 (or possibly) less than that in the United States. There are roughly 80,000 Syrian/Lebanese/Egyptian Jews in Brooklyn alone. There are at least 20,000 Persian Jews in Los Angeles. Someone has there statistics and demographics way off on this one.

The stats also seem off for Israel too.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

These are probably not Sephardi Jews but Mizrahi. --Asteriontalk 18:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Difference between Sephardi and Mizrahi?

I know there isn't a liturgical one (they use the same prayerbook -- which is slightly different than the ashkenazi) 128.91.27.93 03:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Amada"

Why is there this single word, "amada", as a wiki link to a nonexistent page, on its own at the end of the section on "dolces"?

I quote:

"At their festivals they follow the Spanish custom of distributing dulces, or dolces, a confection wrapped in paper bearing a picture of the magen David (six pointed star). Amada."

Is this in error?

Liam Proven 08:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Sephardi Jews

In 1999 SHAS, the party which represents non-Ashkenazi Jews, i.e. Mizrahi + Sephardi, polled 430,000 votes. Given the fact that some of the Sephardi Jews vote for the Likud Party also and that they tend to have more children than the Ashkenazim, the number of Sephardi Jews stated in the article is grossly under-estimated. The fact the Labour Party - a stronghold of the liberal-letist Ashkenazi elite - has been in power continuously from 1948 to 1977 and mostly out of power since then is partly a result of the change in demographics (apart from the influx of former Soviet Jews, of which 15-20% were non Ashkenazim from Central Asia). There is also no inclusion of the 20,000 Iranian Jews. Petruclej (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sephardi Jews - 9 images

Copied from user's talk pages

DOB is fine... please bear in mind that the images will line up differently on different peoples computers. 9 images might look ok on your screen but it might look out of alignment for somebody else.--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Dr who1975! Thanks for your note. Hadn't thought of that... Do you think a solution just as the one that was found for Portuguese people is a good idea? I'll work on it and propose it. Thank! The Ogre (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The image you sent me from the portuguese page is actually very common. If you look at pages such as African American, Italians, Irish American and Jew you'll see that arrangement. I wouldnb't say it's universal as pages like Irish people, Italian American, and Ashkenazi Jews don't have it but still... it's very common.--Dr who1975 (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello again! Following your last note, I have uploaded to the commons the image you can see below. I'm putting it in the article. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Where did you get the picture of Jacques Derrida?... I wouldn;t recomened using it if it's copyrighted... not sure if it would get the image deleted or not.--Dr who1975 (talk) 21:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not copirighted - check the page at the commons! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 21:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The most famous Sephardi/Mizrahi Jew alive is missing from this photomontage - Rav Ovadia Yosef - surely more important than Rav Shlomo Amar... Petruclej (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably! I wouldn't know. Notice however that this article is about Sephardi strictu senso, which does not include Mizrahi. Ovadia Yosef is, I belive, an Iraqi Jew, is he not? And Amar is the present Sephardi Chief Rabi in Israel, is he not? And he is listed as being Sephardi, not Mizrahi, in List of Sephardi Jews, even if he comes, or his family, from Morroco - where a lot of Iberian Jews took refuge. When I made this image my intention was not to present a final, authoritative, list of Sephardi Jews - I just wanted to improve on the format problems that the presence of several different images provoked, and to introduce some simetry - in the number os pictures (there where only seven before) and in the the profile of people pictured (that is why I introduced a modern non-religious intelectual and a modern rabi). Do you see my point? Of course an open discussion can be put forward regarding who should be pictured. I believe some principles should prevail: historical diversity, religious / non-religious diversity, national diversity, professional diversity, gender diversity. In a word: diversity. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 15:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There's no requirement that the most famous individuals have to be pictured. I know less about the history of Sephardic Jewry than either of you so I can’t argue as to any individuals authenticity as a Sephardic Jew. Just a note: are we sure the page is only about people with a Sephardic heritage. I could make an argument that a Rabbi who was not born Sephardic but contributed greatly to Sephardic tradition could indeed make them a de facto Sephardic Jew (my first point overrides the necessity for any such person to be pictured). If I moved to a Sephardic temple and identified myself as one I certainly wouldn’t want someone telling me I wasn’t one.--Dr who1975 (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that this article is about ethnic Sephardi and not liturgycal Sephardi (as it is stated in the Definition). The Ogre (talk) 17:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's such an artificial distinction between Jews who originally migrated fron Spain and other non-Ashkenazi Jews - the Mizrahim. Many of the Jews from from Spain have found their way to Egypt, Persia, Afganistan, Iraq and India. My point is that Rav Shlomo Amar is a quite unremarkable rabbi (as chief rabbi he is appointed by the state) and a follower of Rav Ovadia who is the most revered Sephardi/Mizrahi rabbi in th world. And why is Paula Abdul - a Syrian Jew - so remarkable? She is surely a dwarf when compared to Enrico Macias, Yehoram Gaon, Ofra Haza (sorry, as Yemenite she should be excluded according to your criteria), Elias Cannetti, Siegfried Sassoon, Carl Djerassi, Edmond Safra, Emma Lazarus, Benjamin Cardozo, etc. Petruclej (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you may be right in all acounts! That distinctions may be "artificial", as you say, but it is still there - and I understood this to be the article about Sephardim strictu senso - this was not my choice! The article was already that as a result of previous discussions, I suppose. Notice that there is an article about the Mizrahi Jews (and that, as all categories, including Ashkenazi, may be an artificial category!). If this article is about both Sephardi strictu senso and Mizrahi then we have unbalanced articles. And, even if distinctions may be somewhat artificial, I do believe that there were some differences between Jews originating in the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) and Jews who already resided in North African and Middle East countries before the expulsion from Iberia. And do notice that many Sephardi did not go to the Islamic world but to France, the Netherlands, and the Americas (namely the US and Brazil) - see Spanish and Portuguese Jews. If some of the people now pictured are not Sephardi strictu senso please say so (is that what you are saying about Paula Abdul?). And, again, if you want to propose other peolple, please do so! But I ask you to make a list of people for whom a free non-copyrighted image can be found. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I think it's impoortant to show people like Paula Abdul and Hank Azaria because they buck Stereotypes.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, should Cecil B. DeMille even be here? Yes, his mother was a Sephardi, but was he a Sephardi, or just someone of partial Sephardi ancestry? I mean, did he identify as a Jew (whatever the sense) and specifically a Sephardi? The Ogre (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This image of his grave site tends to indicate that he did not identify as a Jew [2].--Ѕandahl 19:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It's clearly debatable... I don't see a problem with it since Sephardi judiasm is also a heritage.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but if someone, independent of heritage, clearly states, "I am not a Jew", then that person should not be pushed to the front row. The Ogre (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
You're the one who put the final image together. Change it. Are you looking for suggestions?--Dr who1975 (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
David Ricardo looks like a good possibility. Admittedly, he became a Unitarian but unlike DeMille, both his parent's were Sephardic. His picture is also public domain. It'd be nice to replace DeMille with a 20th century figure but choices are limited.--Dr who1975 (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Emma Lazarus and Benjamin Cardozo are good possibilities and both images are public domain.--Ѕandahl 19:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal - 18 pictures

Well... I'll try do some new version, including Ricardo, Lazarus and Cardoso. Regarding Petruclej proposals:

  • Rabi Ovadia - Iraqui Mizrahim
  • Enrico Macias - Algerian Sephardi - no picture available
  • Yehoram Gaon - Israli Sephardi - no picture available
  • Ofra Haza - Yemenite Mizrahim
  • Elias Canetti - Bulgaria Sephardi - picture available - will do
  • Siegfried Sassoon - Baghdadi Mizrahim
  • Carl Djerassi - mother Austrian Ashkenazi and father Bulgarian Sephardi - no picture available
  • Edmond Safra - Lebanese Sephardi - no picture available
  • Emma Lazarus and Benjamin Cardozo - ok as said above

So, I'm doing a new version with some more people. Then you'll let me know what you think. See you soon. The Ogre (talk) 21:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh! And I'm removinc Cecil B. DeMille because of doubts regarding his ethnic affiliation - if there are any doubts then it's best no to present him in the front row of Sephardim....! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Also there is Bernard Baruch, Sephardi mother, Ashkenazi father, contemporary figure. Available image is PD.--Ѕandahl 22:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't see you message Ѕandahl! And had already done the new picture, it's the one below and on the article (I changed the previous version in the Commons).

It includes:

I hope it's to everyones liking! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I miss Paula Abdul--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Wel... yes, and I do admit there aren't that many women in the ensemble, however I did leave her out because there are some doubts if she is a Shepardi or a Mizrahi, being from Syria she could be either. The Ogre (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a simple proposal if you are in search for a woman: include Rita Levi-Montalcini, Nobel prize winner for medecine in 1986 and Italian life senator. And please, forget about Paula Abdul. Petruclej (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I welcome the new list and breathe a sigh of relief at the disappearance of Paula Abdul, not because she is Syrian, but her presence among these personalities looks like a joke. Let's put political correctness aside, please. BTW, what about the famous spy, Eli Cohen, Egyptian Jew? After all, many Egyptian Jews are Sephardim (though I hate the difference Sephardi/Mizrahi). Petruclej (talk) 16:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The image of Eli Cohen is non-free like many others.--Ѕandahl 16:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are some more proposals:

  • Emilio Segre - physicist, Nobel Prize (1959)
  • Salvador Luria - Italian, microbiologist, Nobel Prize (1969)
  • Rita Levi-Montalcini - Italian, 1986 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
  • Franco Modigliani - Italian, economist, Nobel Prize (1985)
  • Primo Levi - Italian, chemist and author
  • Cesare Lombroso - Italian, criminologist
  • Amedeo Modigliani - Italian, painter
  • Camille Pissarro - French, painter
  • Simon Sebag-Montefiore, British, writer
  • Nissim de Camondo - French, banker, a Paris arts museum is named after him
  • Benedict Mallah - Greek, doctor, French President's Nicolas Sarkozy paternal grandfather

Another proposal: Elias Canetti, Nobel prize winning author (born in Bulgaria)

There is also the intriguing possibility of Theodore Herzl himself having Sephardic roots (http://ha-historion.blogspot.com/2007/04/binyamin-zeev-theodore-herzl-sephardic.html). Petruclej (talk) 14:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not one mention of the 1066 massacres of Jews in Granada (and others in Spain) by Moslems

That's an interesting "omission" by the Free Encylopedia. J.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.28.112 (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Language correction: The Sephardim of Istanbul (and those of all the cities of Turkey) do not use Portuguese but Judeo-Spanish, and actually a variety of it that is quite close to Castilian. There were roughly two dialect groups of Judeo-Spanish in the Ottoman empire: In Salonika and some Balkan cities they used a variety that has some features close to Portuguese, like the retention of initial "f" instead of "h", although oterhwise it is Castilian and mutually easily understandable with therest, while in Istanbul and elsewhere in Turkey the phonemes are basically those of 16th century Castilian (except for the s-z which is a complicated matter

[edit] "Without walls"'s revisions

1. "Without Walls" keeps inserting a paragraph speculating about Iranian influence on the Jews of Sardis, and claiming that the Sephardim are in fact descended from these. First, this is an article about Spanish Jews, not about the intellectual origins of Judaism in general, so this is completely irrelevant. Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence for this claim of descent, except the name. Yes, it is always possible, as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". But an encyclopaedia is meant to be about facts that are verifiable; not claims that may or may not be true but about which there is no evidence one way or the other. Nothing is more common in the history of ethnic groups than for a name for one place or tribe to be applied centuries later to a completely different place or tribe for contemporary reasons: that does not imply any link. For example, the Avesta speaks of a tribe "sairima" (Sarmatians), and the Shah Nameh applies the derived name "Salm" to European peoples generally. Is that really evidence that all European peoples are descended from the Sarmatians? Or that the Iberians of Spain are really descended from the Iberians of the Caucasus? Or that the American State of Georgia is populated by Georgians from the Caucasus?

The fact that the name "Sepharad" may have originally referred to Sardis is worth mentioning in itself. But it is already there in an earlier paragraph, on Definition. That is not justification for including a disquisition on the Jews of Sardis (if indeed there were any). Similarly medieval rabbis used "Zarephath" for France, though in the original Biblical context it almost certainly meant "Sarepta" near Sidon. Does that mean that the French Jews are descended from ancient Jewish communities of the Lebanon, or that the article should discuss the influence of ancient Phoenicia on Judaism as a whole?

2. Secondly, he keeps inserting a paragraph on the legislation of Ezra as a precursor to the Visigothic laws against the Jews, and justifies this by pointing out that Christianity is built on Judaism. Again, that is not relevant to the subject of this article, which is about Spanish Jews, not the whole comparative history of the two religions. Also, the analogy is misconceived. The people against whom Ezra was legislating were claiming to be part of the Jewish community, and Ezra was trying to exclude them and impose permanent separation. The Jews in Visigothic Spain had no wish to be Christians, but the legislation was trying forcibly to include them in the Christian community, by banning Jewish practices and placing practising Jews under severe disabilities (including temporary separation) until they conformed. That both sets of legislation included a bar on intermarriage does not affect the fact that the fundamental object was different. Judaism, unlike Christianity, has no mission to convert the heathen.

In short, these insertions are both unsourced and irrelevant, and I shall continue to revert them whenever they are made. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)