Talk:Separation of church and state

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[edit] Advocacy

i just noticed that every section of the advocacy area is tagged for being biases. i'm a little confused. how can they not be? they are arguments for or against something. also, Secular arguments against separation really needs to be expanded. i'm sure someone can find something more to say. it could be changed to be Non-religious arguments against separation.J.L.Main 04:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I will make it brief.
Wikipedia begins this section with, "The separation of church and state is a political doctrine which states that the institutions of the state or national government should be kept separate from those of religious institutions."
Now there is a lot of talk (I see) on this subject; BUT, there is NO political doctrine that states a (or establishes a) "separation of church and state". It is Not in the constitution or bill of rights !!!!!! This is all a lie!!!! I have seen democrats, republicans and secularists use this statement, blah blah "...is against separation of church and state"; but it is a propaganda ploy or tool of telling a big lie often enough and many times will make the masses believe it. This statement, "separation of church and state", was stated only in a letter by T. Jefferson. Think People!!! A Letter !!!!
Ok, if you state the 1st amendment projects this, then you are Dead wrong, The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is a part of the United States Bill of Rights. It prohibits the federal legislature from making laws that: Establish a state religion or prefer a certain religion (the "Establishment Clause") and Prohibit free exercise of religion (the "Free Exercise Clause"). It does not even attempt to EXTRACT religion from the country whatsoever. The people who do cite "separation of church and state" appear to want it to mean to eliminate religion all together.


216.41.143.214 15:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Mario J. Machado
Although the first amendment doesn't explicitly state "Separation of Church and State",it does, like you said, "prohibit the federal legislature from making laws that: Establish a state religion or prefer a certain religion (the "Establishment Clause"). Secularists find it impossible to have church as part of state without it being preferable. And even if it maintains neutrality amongst religions, it still isn't with atheism or agnosticism. Separation of Church and State just clarifies the intended purpose of our government.
12:12, 5 March 2007 Samuel Bohler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.204.97.40 (talk) 14:15, March 5, 2007

[edit] Please remove the section "secular arguments against separation

It only contains one sentence and only presents the opinion of one man. Realistically, almost all believers in secular government support the separation of church and state. I'm going to remove it anyway. User:66.177.138.113 19:14, 10 April 2005

No, it is a valid point and it is not held only by Maurras but by many others as well. Actually it is the conservative (in the sense of political philosophy around 1800) take on religion and was turned upside-down by Marxism. Though not all proponents of this view were downright atheists, as Maurras was, many were merely conventional Christians, e.g. Metternich. They advocated Christianity because it was "respectable" and "decent" to do so, but not out of a deep faith.
You say, "almost all believers in secular government support the separation of church and state", but this is either historically questionable (and what is almost all? - so they were others?) or redudant.
What do you mean by secular government? One can very well argue that any government is secular since it deals with secular things. Or is a secular government one separated from religious bodies? Then your statement is redundant. And what is separation? In a way Christianity is the inventor of a separation of the two powers (Gelasius, Augustine, Jesus himself) Hence this section must be included.Str1977 16:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Old talk

Oh really? that may be true, but constitutional law is little compared to the socialistic notions and "laws" used by societies today. They are more influential, and it can be agreed that most countries advocate separation of church and state. So either way, this article is wrong, but it's worth a point. -- UnidentifiedSpeaker

Excuse me, but Portugal, France, Turkey and Mexico are the only four nations with a valid and CONSTITUTIONAL law separating the State from the Church. So this article is partly wrong. -- PedroTeles
Why is this sentence in the article: "In addition to the ban on Congress establishing an official state religion, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution bans the individual states from establishing an official state religion as well." I find no such wording in the Fourteenth Amendment. The clostest thing I could find was this: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." Where does this come from? I haven't seen it anywhere else. -- Anonymous
The Federal courts use the 14th amendment to restrict the states the same way the federal government is restricted by the bill of rights. That's how they interpret "privileges and immunities", anything illegal for the Feds is illegal for the states. Ronduck 20:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separation of church and state is NOT a constitutional law outside the United States

As the text in the article makes clear by summarizing the laws in several countries, the separation of church and state is NOT a constitutional law--except in the United States.

Actually, the Constitution of France enforces the concept of laïcité, which implies the separation of Church and State. David.Monniaux 08:28, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is also true of Canada where several laws regarding the permissability of religion in public schools have been struck down on constitutional grounds. For example,On September 23, l988, in response to a court challenge, the Ontario Court of Appeal struck down subsection 28(1) of Regulation 262, which had allowed public schools to open or close the school day with religious exercises that gave primacy to a particular faith. In response to another legal challenge brought by a group of parents in Elgin County, on January 30, 1990, the Ontario Court of Appeal struck down subsection 28(4) of Regulation 262, which concerned the teaching of religion in the public elementary schools. The court held subsection 28(4) to be invalid in public schools because it permitted the teaching of a single religious tradition as if it were the exclusive means through which to develop moral thinking and behaviour. The court also ruled, however, that education designed to teach about religion and to foster moral values, without indoctrination in a particular religious faith, would not contravene the charter.

The court elaborated on the differences between indoctrination and education in the following manner:

1. The school may sponsor the study of religion, but may not sponsor the practice of religion. 2. The school may expose students to all religious views, but may not impose any particular view. 3. The school's approach to religion is one of instruction, not one of indoctrination. 4. The function of the school is to educate about all religions, not to convert to any one religion. 5. The school's approach is academic, not devotional. 6. The school should study what all people believe, but should not teach a student what to believe. 7. The school should strive for student awareness of all religions, but should not press for student acceptance of any one religion. 8. The school should seek to inform the student about various beliefs, but should not seek to conform him or her to any one belief

The current first sentence reads:

The separation of church and state is a concept in constitutional law wherein the functions of government are kept separate from those of religion.

I suggest that the current first sentence be corrected to remove the inaccuracies and severe United States bias that are in the current first sentence. Rednblu 19:19, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Generally, the separation of church and state is constitutional law, whether it be expressed explicitly in a written constitution (like the USA, France and Australia) or whether it is a convention of an unwritten constitution (like the UK and New Zealand). I'm not aware of any state that separates itself from the church through legislation, but if this were the case, the constitutonal focus of the article should be adapted.--Cyberjunkie 13:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stable separation?

Why is Britain listed as having a stable separation? While it is true that the two are not the same, the monarch is also the head of the established church - can we change the title?2toise 06:58, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

By that token, why is the U.S. listed as not having a stable separation? What the hell does "stable" separation mean anyway? Whose opinion is that? This division and the classifications made therein make little or no sense. Daniel Quinlan 22:37, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)
The US doesn't have a monarch, by that "token." Makes sense to me. --69.214.227.51 06:07, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Article structure and new header on History

This is the first I've visted this page, and don't know how active or watched/maintained it is but I added a history section on the history of the seperation of church and state. My background is medieval so have no plans to fill out the Ancient or Modern history articles but created the sub-headings just in case (they don't need to be there). Also notice that the article is 32k long, it would make sense to start breaking stuff out to sub-articles with main article and summary paragraphs (see First Crusade for an example); the 3 "Country" chapters would make a good sub-article. --Stbalbach 07:36, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rebutle: Yeas, but it is important that people undertsand that it isnt actually a law. Otherwise people may sound like idiots if the reference it. --Poster Unknown

[edit] Why is the list of stable state churches so short?

Surely many other countries could be included. E.g., Greece. Michael Hardy 22:52, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biases and omissions

I've tagged the article as having a limited geographic scope, as there are a lot more noteworthy countries.

I've also noticed that this article is almost exclusively about Christianity. There is a lot of activity on the church-state front in the Islamic world, and there is plenty of source material available online from the State Department and the news media. I'm thinking some good subjects would include Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (given the strong relations with the United States), and Iraq (which is in an extremely interesting state of flux right now), and there is plenty of source material available online from the State Department and the news media. I've created a redirect to here from "Separation of mosque and state", and made a trivial contribution to coverage of Islam.

It would also be very interesting to hear about countries dominated by other religions or non-religions, especially, say, China, India, Israel, Vietnam, North Korea. One other subtle bias is that only advocacy groups for separation are listed, none against. -- Beland 21:51, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I followed a link to here when reading about the New Komeito Party of Japan. I don't really understand why this article shouldn't be titled "Separation of religion and state" when this article covers an international scope already. While "church and state" is more common colloquially, that should be relegated to a redirect title rather than the main article title because it's misleading -- no state actually separates itself from Christianity only but they all separate themselves from any form of religion.--69.214.227.51 05:08, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's actually a very valid point. "Church" does imply that Christianity is the topic of discussion. Perhaps the article should be put up for renaming. However, there are issues arising from designating the article "Separation of religion and state" too. How broad are we to consider 'religion'? Religion does not necessarily mean organised religion, which is what is separated from the state. For religion itself to be separated from the state, the religiosity of certain politicians of supposedly secular states would be illegal, would it not?--Cyberjunkie 13:50, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Not really. --69.214.227.51 16:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of geographical bias, why is there a link right at the top to "Separation of church and state in the United States" instead of in the "See Also" section? A lot of the article as it is seems to refer to the United states only and could use a cleanup. Sajendra 02:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently doing some work on reorganizing the article based on the general points I suggested here. I think the reason the link is at the top is because the term primarily is from the U.S., whereas other countries tend to describe their religion/government issues in different terms (whether laicite, secularism, disestablishment or what). That's also why I'm doing more to acknowledge that, and will hopefully be able to include a bit greater discussion of the specific issues of U.S. "separation," while focusing less on general "secularism and theocracy" issues, which I think are more effectively discussed in the articles by those names (and then possibly summarized here). Ultimately then we wouldn't need the link at the top; my suggestion was that the United States article potentially be renamed into "History of Church/State Issues in the U.S.," or something similar, since that's primarily what it covers (and because I'm not sure the current U.S./International distinction totally holds up). Another article on church/state issues internationally could certainly also be created, my suggestion then would only be to avoid the Jeffersonian phrase. In any case, I'd still certainly welcome other views on this, while hoping people aren't too perturbed by the changes so far. Mackan79 07:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I just want to point out Article II Section 6 of the current Philippine constitution: "The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable." The RP having a lot of history in common with the US may explain this to some extent, or the phrase may be used more widely than you suggest -- I don't know. -- Boracay Bill 01:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
That's interesting, I hadn't seen that. I certainly don't mean to say the phrase is never used internationally either; really, my guess is that this will increase with globalization and all, and some European countries finally disestablishing their state churches. I'm still pretty confident that authors currently tend to avoid that use, though, if only to show their own recognition of its American roots.


There are also practical problems, since if you're talking about separation, you should really be talking about separation. In that case you'd have to say countries like Denmark don't have any separation, even though it's of course a very secular country. That's interesting in a way, but somewhat misleading as a general discussion of government/religion relations in Denmark, or in a lot of other countries where the degree of secularism is probably the more useful guide. In a lot of those countries, "separation" has simply never been the issue, which does make the idea rather America-centric.
If I may say, though, I think the new international history section, particularly the "Modern" portion, gives a much more grounded view of the international scene, no? This makes sense to me, to explain the concept according to its American roots, and then how it applies in other countries. Even if we wanted the discussion completely international from the beginning, that might just confuse the topic, by taking it out of the realm in which most people discuss the issues. It's an interesting issue with Wikipedia, I think, whether everything should be discussed on an international level, or if "international perspectives" is kind of a separate issue of its own (most scholars tend to write more narrowly, after all). That's where I'm coming from, anyway. Mackan79 15:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Mackan79, I disagree with your statement that "the term primarily is from the U.S.". In France the 1905 act of parliament on this issue is known as "Loi du 9 décembre 1905 relative à la séparation des Églises et de l'État". The expression "Separation of church and state" is commonly used in France, not just "laïcité". Therefore I support the view that the article has a strong US bias and that most of it, including most of the first chapter beyond the first sentence should be moved to Separation of church and state in the United States. --F Sykes 12:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
That's true about France; on the other hand, it was still more than a century after the term originated in the U.S., and is still not the primary phrase used in France to my knowledge. We also have a separate article on laicite in France (and Turkey) which seems to make sense, since it is largely a different system than in the U.S. Can we point to other countries where this phrase is used? I stand by that I could find many sources supporting that this is a U.S. centric phrase, derived specifically from a letter by Thomas Jefferson describing the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I think the problem remains that we don't have a great article discussing religion/government interaction internationally, but that still doesn't justify ignoring the American roots of this concept. Incidentally, even if we want this article to be entirely international, it would still have to acknowledge that both the specific concept and phrase originated in the U.S. Not that the current organization is perfect; I think we do still need a better way of discussing the international issues, but only that a totally egalitarian discussion under this title doesn't work. Mackan79 13:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separation of "Church" and State

I know the supposed term for this political doctrine is "Separation of church and state", however I believe this title is not in accordance with the doctrine should be "Seperation of religion and state", as the term "church" connotates merely with Christian denominations, offering the assumption that other religions and religious doctrines are not included in the "Seperation of church and state"—it also can be viewed as discrimination toward Christianity. I believe the term "church" is most likely used due to ineptitude of the term's creator, and should be replaced with the term "religion" on Wikipedia. I propose we move this article to that title and rephrase the opening statement as such:

  • The separation of religion and state (unveiled as separation of church and state) is a political doctrine ..."

A further explanation of the title and title alteration could be explained further in the article. Any further comments would be appreciated. — CRAZY`(IN)`SANE 20:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"Ineptitude of the creator"? I think you misunderstand the issue. The doctrine as it is formed was originally to stop a Christian denomination being favoured and adopted as an official state denomination - it's not actually the secularism ideal (that religion should not be included in Government whatsoever) that so many people believe it to be. The historical context has led it to be called this. It's not a biased issue in any sense. (JROBBO 05:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC))

As far as I have learned, the 'Seperation of church and state' is supposed to mean just that -- 'church and state' not religion and state. This is why there is all the talk about "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". The "establishment of religion", i.e., a particular state run church, is banned. The point was not to separate a religious mindset from government; Thomas Jefferson was a very religious man. There is something wrong with the Wikipedia article when it reads, "Separation of church and state is the political and legal concept that government and religion should be separate". It should read:

  • The separation of religion and state is the political and legal concept that government and religious establishments should be separate

--fogus (talk) 02:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Weasel words"

The part about Egypt caught my eye "Despite the fact that Egypt is a predominantly Islamic population, most would agree that the Coptic Orthodox Church is the unofficial state church of Egypt." It seems to justify it later on, which makes me wary of removing this out of hand. Anyone else have thoughts on this? 68.39.174.238 04:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There are those who believe every person has the right to live under government that agrees with their core beliefs. This has led back to the idea of Localized Church Government. If Localized Church Government were to be applied in America every county would decide how they wanted to be affiliated with the church. This would, according to its supporters, lead to greater religious freedom for everyone. "The state religion is this way and if you don’t like it you can leave.":
There are also people who believe the government should take an active role in eliminating religion. These people believe that it is impossible to keep the "superstitions" and "religious prejudices" out of the government and that the "superstitions" and "religious prejudices" are harmful to society. The only way to solve the problem of religion, according to these people, is to get rid of religion. They often point to freedom of choice. While many secularists think abortion is fine most religious groups condemn it and are trying to get it outlawed. Religious groups are often against homosexual marriage, pornography, relaxed sex laws, prostitutes, euthanasia, and gambling; things many others see as being human rights.:

This entire section is basically weasel words. "There are those who believe", "There are also people who believe", etc. Pretty much EXACTLY what the weasel words article tells you not to write.

--Kraftlos 07:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC) I removed this section because it had some weasel-words and because I didn't think it was exactly relevant or well-written. Firstly I don't think that this is the argument religious organizations are using to support this view, also I feel that although it doesn't contain any obvious weasel-words, the view of the author is apparent in the text.

Some religious organizations in America believe that prayer in the schools will improve the morals of American children, and maintain that the inability of public school officials to conduct prayers in school does not protect religion but rather harms religion.

[edit] Religious schools in Canada

...in fact, many non-Catholics (and non-Christians) prefer these schools for either the quality of education or the opportunity to be educated in an environment where morality and spirituality are not excluded.

Does this sentence implicitly state that non-(Catholic)religious schools are immoral since they provide an environment where morality and spirituality are excluded? Please excuse my imperfect grasp of English if that is not the case. Illythr 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If no one responds to this, we should remove that sentence. Completely POV and unnecessary.

You sure it's better that way? "Exposure to religion"? And what's up with that deleted chunk about other arguments against separation? --Illythr 19:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The entire other chunk was speculation and weaseling. Read the above discussion topic.

Separation of Church and State a Myth?

I am not what you might call a religionist.I do believe however, that the doctrine of the separation of Church and State is a political myth. On the one hand, religion is always concerned with society as a whole, not just what happens within houses of worship. On the other, politicians will always be concerned to appeal to the religious and spiritual sentiments of voters. Here in Australia, the Prime Minister has inveighed against gay marriage, invitro fertilisation, encouraged a debate about abortion, and recently (and disastrously) named a former Anglican bishop as Governor-General of Australia. He is a committed Christian. No, the priests are still working behind the scenes

Gax 20-6-06

[edit] No mention of Mark 12:13

[1]

Jesus was a proponent of separation of church and state! I can't believe this isn't under 'religious arguments for separation'. I wanted to take it up here before adding anything about it. Joffeloff 11:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We would need an outside source who, themselves, made such an argument based on the bible. We can't cite the bible ourselves, as to do so would be original research, not to mention POV. Interpretation is a subjective matter. Kasreyn 11:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
What I meant was that surely, someone must've used this earlier, and sure enough:
  • [2] - this blogger/somethingorother gets an email from someone using the verse as an argument, and responds to it
  • [3] - this woman argues that Jesus accepted the 'worldly' (secular) governments and uses the verse as an example
  • [4] - this person notes that it is often used as an argument by 'liberals'.
  • [5] - it is used here; 'But Jesus drew a clear distinction between the Church and the State, as he did between the kingdoms of the earth and the Kingdom of Heaven. He asked his followers to give their obedience to the state in secular affairs, and obedience to God in spiritual affairs.'
Etc. Perhaps it should be listed under a different category, since it seems religious people are hesitant to interpret it this way. Joffeloff 17:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Martin Luther used the parallel reading in Matthew 22:21 (and lots of other scripture references) as an argument for a separation in his On Secular Authority: how far does the Obedience owed to it extend? [6]: If the emperor's power extended to God's kingdom and God's power, and were not something distinct and separate, there would be no point in distinguishing the two. But, as has been said, the soul is not subject to the emperor's power. He can neither teach nor guide it; he cannot kill it or bring it to life; he cannot bind or loose it, judge it or sentence it, hold it or release it. And yet he would need to [be competent to do all of these] if he were to have the power to legislate for it and issue orders to it. But as to goods and honor, here is his proper domain. For such things are subject to his power. Apus 13:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] status in Israel- Jewish nationality vs. ethnicity

This section explains the common misconception about Israel being a "Jewish State." What is meant by "Jewish State", as explained in the section is the National sense, i.e. the state of the Jewish nation, similar to Italy being "the Italian state" and the Netherlands beign "The Dutch State".

The confusion derives from the ambiguity of the term "Jewish" that refers both to nationality, as in this case, and to religion. "Jewish" can also mean a general ethinicity but in this case it is not merely ethnicity that is relevent but the view that "Jewish" is in fact a nationality and that thus Israel is the Jewish Nation- the Jewish State. So, changing the term nationality into "ethincity" really misses the whole point of the esssence of Israel in the National sense.

Furthermore, the view that the Jewish people form their own nationality is in fact the raison d'être of the State of Israel.

Also, the fact that the State's name and the nationality are not derived from the same root doesn't change the fact that Israel is the manifestaion of the Jewish Nationality, similar to the way the Netherlands are to the Dutch. The citizens of Israel regardless of ethnicity are Israeli, but their nationality is Jewish (except in the case of the minorities which have in fact a double nationality, the "Israeli" political nationality and the ethnic nationality that is unique to their group.)

Understanding the differences between these terms is esssential for one to understand Israel's declaration of independence that states Israel is a "Jewish state" in which their shall be equality "Regardless of religion, race, and sex," and in which there will be complete religious freedom etc. Tal :) 10:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

incorrect factuality

[edit] "Harmony of Church and state"

Is this an official designation of some sort? Because it's currently but a redirect to state religion, something I certainly wouldn't call a "harmony". And it looks a bit POV'ish, too. --Illythr 08:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resources

I would find it helpful to see a section listing some non-Internet sources of information about this issue (i.e. books, documentaries, etc.) Bryan H Bell 21:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I read carefully both Separation of church and state and Laïcité and please forgive my stupidity but the concepts are basically the same, with some intricacies in specifics as applied in specific countries. But these particularites may be covered in country-specific articles, such as Separation of church and state in the United States. No need for a French word IMO. `'mikka (t) 05:35, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a separate article for the US - but much more of this (unorganized) article should be there. A separate article for France is OK - but title should be in English --JimWae 06:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Agree with JimWae. Arbusto 23:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree with JimWae. Diez2 25:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong disagree.. As a lawyer I have to disagree, they might seem similar to the unfamiliar eye, but they are fundamentally different.. The fact that it is a french word doesn't mean anything, there is a different word because they are different concepts.. anglo-saxon secularism and french laicité are not the same, one of them is a system where the state gives the freedom to religion and religious institutions to do whatever they want, the other is one where the state actively monitors and controls the activities of religious institutions to make sure that the religions don't have the same authority and functions as the state (schools etc).. In laicité, religions are always considered inferior to the republic, the laws of the republic can limit and force religious institutions to abandon their practices; spiritual movements considered to be cults are clearly defined by law, banned and actively prosecuted.. A Jehovah's witness in France or Turkey cannot refuse blood transfusion, if they do, they will be forced to accept the transfusion and later prosecuted.. There is a reason why that article was named as such, it is not only France that practices laicité, it is a universal principle born from the French revolution. From an academics point of view, removal of that article would constitute a grave deficiency for Wiki.. I know that the article in its current state is not very comprehensive and can lead the reader to think that they are the same, but a concept as such truly deserves to have its own article. I have joined wiki only a few weeks ago and completely rewrote the article Turkish Constitution, I gave a specific link to laicité and not to secularism for this reason.. When I have the time, I am willing to work on the laicité article to make it more comprehensive and demonstrate its fundamental philosophical differences it has with secularism. And definitely dont move it to sep of church and state!! Turkey is a secular country, that would be highly eurocentric to label what it practices like this, it is a predominantly muslim country.. Please reconsider, over the last two centuries there have been many works written to point out and define the conceptual differences between anglo-saxon secularism and french laicité.. We would be doing all of them a great injustice if that article was not to have its own listing.. regards Baristarim 02:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Btw, it is not only France that practices laicité, that is not the reason it was named in french. Turkey, a predominantly Muslim country, has been intentionally practising laicité and not secularism.. I know that in English secularism is used as a blanket word, but most European academicians would know the conceptual difference between these two.. Another very important point: Laicité is not the seperation of church and state as equals, it is the subordination of church to the state in a hierarchy, religion only being able to do what the laws of the republic allow them: religions are considered as inferior to the moral superiority of the republic which is defined as the soul of the nation.. I have lived in TR, US and FR, and believe me, there is a fundamental difference in nature.. By definition such a merge would be illogical, since it would assume that laicité is the French method of seperating the church and the state.. I hope that u were able to follow me, this is one of the more delicate philosophical matters in political sciences and law, so it might be extremely hard to grasp the concept if one is not familiar with the subject (history of secularism in Europe) beforehand..Baristarim 02:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
In TR and FR, we use both words, secularism and laicité (tr:laisizm), in academic writing when talking about political sciences especially in intl pol sci.. However, there is an academic concensus that are parallel to the decisions of constitutional courts of both countries that affirm that these countries choose and practise laicité, not secularism.. Laicité is not the French for secularism: for example in Italy, both words are used (more or less), but there has been an ongoing debate for decades as to which form the country should practice.. Baristarim 02:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not suggesting to merge Secularism and Laicite. You claim you are a lawyer, so you must listen carefully what other people say.

I am basing my suggestion on definitions in articles:

  • Laicite: ... is a prevailing conception of the secularism and the absence of religious interference in government affairs, and vice-versa..

Tell me it is not Separation of church and state (and it is not what you wrote above). Of course, every country and culture may do it in different ways. Therefore it is suggested to cover this topic in separate articles for particular states. But the main concept (and main article) is "Separation of...". `'mikka (t) 04:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Laicité is almost more than just separation of State and Church. It is a total disparition from public sphere of mentions of religion or God. All that touches religion is totally banned from law, politic, education, justice, etc. because it is considered as part of private life.Rhadamante 21:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
No merge; see also because they are related, but no merge because they are quite different. KillerChihuahua?!? 22:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Not quite Mikka.. On two points.. One: Please read my second post above about the difference in 'nature' between the two. Laicité is NOT the seperation of church (? btw) and state, it is the "subordination" (more or less) of religion to the republic.. The intro u gave from laicité clearly shows this!! it is a conception of secularism and the absence of religious affairs in govt affairs. I fail to see how you can deduce that it concerns seperation. Seperation implies, by definition, an equality (again we r talking more or less). As an ideology, laicité doesn't permit that. In fact I will step back and kind of change what I wrote before when I said laicité is not secularism. There are two theories to this subject, one is what I said before and the other is that laicité is a form of secularism, IF and ONLY IF, secularism is used only by its dictionary definition. The problem arises from the fact that secularism, in usage, is only used to refer to secularism in Anglo-Saxon countries. That's what I tried to imply when I said laicité is not secularism. If we go by the purely dictionary def, then both laicité and "seperation of church and state" are a forms of secularism. In any case sep of ch&st is definitely not secularism itself. Therefore, there should be three different articles in fact that explain the ideologies: Secularism and two sub-articles: seperation of church and state; laicité.. And there should be other articles that deal with their practical applications in different countries. But even then we would be still pushing it, because it is generally accepted that laicité is not even a form of secularism because of the usage problem. Which brings me to something else:

I fear systemic bias here. Laicité is a predominantly non-English European ideology, therefore, as the article itself so rightly states, there is not an exact equivalent in the Anglo-Saxon world except for in the high academic spheres. It is English Wiki, not Anglo-Saxon Wiki :))

I actually read your proposal, but do I need glasses or did I read merge proposal as the section title? This article is (or should be) about how church and state relations are dealt with in predominantly Christian countries (and not religions in general).. That's why there is a different article called "secularism".. Secularism is (according to the 2nd def that I disagree with) an encompassing word for all ideologies that promote non-interference of religion in state. It is maleable without implying how and where it should be done.. When u use "church", u get into specifics, therefore it becomes a subset of secularism. If u were to change the article's title to sep of state and religion, then I fail to see how that would be different than secularism to begin with. Let's not forget we are dealing with ideologies here, not the practical application of secularism in different countries. Soon I will be starting an article called "secularism in turkey", and I will explain how it uses laicité branch as the basis for its secularism. Shortness of an article should not be a basis for its practical deletion by merging.

In response to specific points u raised: One, I explained the difference between laicité and sep ch&st, and how they are a subset of secularism (in fact, if u go with my first definition, the latter is a subset of the former, but just to bridge the divide between Anglo-Saxon world and European, let's go along with my later def where they are equals). Turkey practices the former, and that's obvious in two ways: ideologically that's what it practices and, obviously it is not a christian country. And please, I don't want to hear that eurocentric thesis that is extremely insulting to the intelligence of others whereby people claim that "church" is used figuratively.. Well, maybe we should go to the sep of ch&st in the US article and rename it "sep of mosque and state in the US" instead.. "But no!! We mean mosque figuratively, don't get offended!!".. yeah right :)). Secondly, as I pointed above, laicité is not a seperation, it is a subordination.. As I said, they might seem similar to the unfamiliar eye, but please consider the factor of systemic bias I mentioned above. AND NO, the main article is not "seperation of...", the main article for ideologies is (again, only according to the 2nd def) "secularism", and all the other ideologies are subsets. If we were to merge the two articles in question and rename it to seperation of religion and state, we might as well merge BOTH these articles with secularism, which would be a great deficiency for Wiki since we would be going backwards by returning to the starting point. Baristarim 03:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename proposal

In fact, I am going one step further and propose that this article be renamed Relations between religions and states, since it concerns primarily how religion in certain countries are related to the respective states that they are located, there are mentions of countries that have religious influences in state, like Greece, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The French version that is interwikied is titled Rapports entre Etats et réligions, which means what I proposed above.. The current title should be a redirect. I feel that the current title shows systemic bias and the intro is kinda weaselly. It really does sound weird to talk about religion in Saudi Arabia under "seperation of church and state". See my post directly above about the use of "church" not being appropriate and showing systemic bias. It would also sound weird if we renamed the "sep of church and state in the US" article to "sep of mosque and state in the US" while claiming that mosque is used figuratively. I am atheist, so it is not because I am particularly offended or anything, it is just logical and rectifies the systemic bias that I mentioned. Just because that's how it was written in the US Constitution 200 years ago doesn't mean we have to do so today in Wikipedia. :))) Baristarim 03:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Support

  • Support. I feel this is the right thing to do. Laicity is a concept, from which its followers try to define how the state should deal with religious questions. The actual system in place in a given state is a compromise that is reached, it may be inspired by laicity but cannot embody it. --Josce 16:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Qualified Support I very much agree that using the word "Church" is ethnocentric, but don't think the proposed title gets it completely right. How about "Separation of religion and government"? Elizmr 22:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support either, if we use v.1, there is room for more scope, if v.2, more narrow scope. Either has great possibilities. Excellent idea, Baristarim. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Either proposed title is fine. Seperation of Church and State may be appropriate for the US article since that is the wording from the Constitution but for this article I agree it should be less ethnocentric. Luke C 12:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. The new proposed title name can accomodate both the "separation of church and state" from Anglo-saxon tradition (US and UK), and laicite from the continental European tradition (France) as well as the Levantine tradition (Turkey, Lebanon). The proposed article would also be a good complementing reference for state secularism. Relations between religions and states sounds great to me, and the proposed title clarifies SO many things for a reader. --Noypi380 01:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support the title Seperation of religion and government as it's just weird to talk about Islam, etc, with the article titled as it is. Veesicle (Talk) (Contribs) 13:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

  • Strongly Oppose This article does indeed refer to how separation of church and state has affected many countries, but the name "Relations between religions and states" pretty much isolates the rest of the article. In fact, the actual legal principle (at least in the United States) is called "Separation of Church and State." In France, it may be called laïcité. It really doesn't matter. It all still is forms of separation of church and state.Diez2 00:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't have a horse in this race, and I understand that the rename would not impact searching for the article under the old name since the old name would be left in place as a redirect. However, The article does not speak to relations between Religions and States. It speaks to the extent interference in the operation of religious institutions by the State. It does not speak to interference in or influence on State affairs by religious organizations. Also, I note that Category:Separation of church and state exists and is pretty well populated. Also, I note that a Google search for articles with the phrase "church and state" in their title turns up 10 or so articles. -- Boracay Bill 10:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose Diez2 and Boracay Bill said it better tan I could. -- weirdoactor t|c 02:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose People know what the concept "separation of church and state" means. "Relations between religions and states" isn't really a common phrase. If people are going to look up this subject on wikipedia, they're going to look up separation of church and state. Keeping the name is then a matter of making wikipedia easier to navigate.NorthernFalcon 01:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


Comments

Like Baristarim, I think a title including an appreciation as "separation" involves a bias. What is interesting is to study what links are allowed or prohibited btwn politics and religion in different states -- e.g., Germany has strictly regulated links. Then, there's the minor question about choosing btwn "state" and "government", I think "state" is better (e.g. federal states, and also civil servants are not always understood as belonging to the "government"). --131.111.17.49 09:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This was placed between Elizmr's support and mine, is it intended to be a support position? and if so, of what title? KillerChihuahua?!? 09:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


Please, can we approach a consensus soon? This was proposed almost a full month ago.Diez2 00:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Size

This article is ridiculously huge. Large articles discourages reading for many, and only makes it harder to maintain and manage. I suggest this either be broken down into sub-articles, or the minute and microscopic details of the subject matter be extinguished. Colonel Marksman 03:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that my recent edits have made the article even larger. What the edits did, generally, was to add mention of countries which had main articles bearing on this but which had not been mentioned here. A couple of thoughts struck me while I was doing these edits:
  • The countries listed in the article are broken int two main sections: Countries with separation and Countries with national or state churches. It strikes me that these two categories are not necessarily the converse of one another -- that there are some examples of countries with national religions but where governmental meddling in religious matters is insignificant.
  • A quick method of reducing the size of this article would be to eliminate internal discussion of individual countries, instead simply listing countries which have relevent Wiki main articles and providing links to those main articles. Countries where some discussion is appropriate but which currently do not have relevent main articles would need to have such articles created in order to be maintioned here. -- Boracay Bill 04:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Forked. Three country sections are Status of religious freedom by country. --Noypi380 04:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Substantial bias in this article, lack of citations, wide-spread weasel wording

CBadSurf 19:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Numerous areas of this article need to be reworked. Almost every section has weasel wording, shows a bias, or does not present citations to primary sources. In addition typographical errors in the article lead me to question the amount of care taken in authorship.

Some examples are:

"In fact, among the framers of the U.S. Constitution there were actually remarkably few devout religious men." No citation is given for this, and even if one was, how can you prove it objectively? Was a survey conducted? A vote taken? Thomas Jefferson was a deist -- could he not have been a devout deist?

    • This is no longer in the current version of the article. Collard 08:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"The colected (sic) writings of most of America's Founding Fathers show that these were men who were far more concerned with secular pursuits, than religious ones." Note misspelling. This is a biased statement with no objective relationship to the article. Again, there is no citation for this. The "collected writing" -- what writings exactly are you referring to? The "Founding Fathers" -- who do you include in this category (Please do not include US Grant)

"Most were worldly, well-eductated (sic) men - they were lawyers, businessmen, soldiers, diplomats, and even scientists." Note misspelling. Is this article saying that well-educated lawyers, businessmen, soldiers diplomats and scientists cannot be devoutly religious? For example, Blaise Pascal? This is so obviously not the case that this statement takes on a very biased viewpoint.

    • See above. :) Collard 08:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

These are just a few examples. I am new to this article, but I miss the objectivity and neutrality present in most wikipedia articles.

I agree. I've made a start, because I dislike that this article has become a chest-pounding session for people from both sides of the divide. Collard 06:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
And now I've done about as much of the cleanup as I care to do (see edit history...). Someone else want to step in and help? :/ Collard 08:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done a bit of editing, and I will attempt to find some citations for more of the content, as time allows. Rakordubrovic 21:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)Rakordubrovic 3-5-2007

[edit] United Kingdom

The reference to the united Kingdom is a little misleading, it's not enough to say that there is an established Church in the United Kingdom. The Anglican Church is the estaplished church only in England. The Episcopal Churches elsewhere in the UK (Church in Wales, Church of Ireland, and the Scotish Episcopal Church) are not established. The (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland is established in Scotland, elsewhere in the UK there is a separation of Church and State. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.254.200.224 (talk) 00:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] AiD Nomination

This article has been nominated (again) for an AiD drive. Please go to WP:AID and vote for this article if you want a lot of help repairing the broken state of this article. Diez2 00:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute over Jefferson

I've invited User:Mactographer and User:Jonathunder to discuss recent edit+reverts. Mactographer prefers a certain paragraph to read thusly:

Despite his use of the phrase, the Library of Congress has provided copious documentation to demonstrate that Jefferson (and other early administrations) had no objection to (and even supported) church meetings within Capitol buildings and chambers. Rather, they claim that by using the term wall of separation between Church and State, "...Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion."

Jonathunder prefers (and the wording I first used to trim down a longer discussion about Jefferson/early American history which I didn't feel belonged here):

Despite his use of the phrase, the Library of Congress claims that other evidence shows Jefferson had no objection to "symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government". Rather, the claim is that by upholding "separation of church and state", he objected to a state supported church, as is practiced by Britain with its official recognition of the Church of England.

This is about to break through the three-revert rule, so it'd be nice if we could come to some consensus on this. :)

Collard 20:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Greetings Jonathunder and Collard. I thank you for the invitation to discuss this issue. My original edits to both this and this article were as follows below:


===Practices of the Jefferson and Madison administrations===
Despite the contemporary claims that Jefferson and Madison were strict proponents of the concept of separation of church and state as it is currently presented in modern debate, it is a common misconception to assume that religion was not associated with the practice of politics in early American life. In fact, the Religion and the Founding of the American Republic website exhibit at the Library of Congress states,
“
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.[1]
 ”
In fact, the Library of Congress exhibit clearly states that Jefferson apparently had no objection to non-discriminatory religion being practiced in state, but rather he objected ONLY to the formation of a state supported church – such as is practiced by Britain with her official recognition of the Church of England as the state church.[2]
Following my original submission as seen above, it was edited down to the following:
Despite his use of the phrase, the Library of Congress claims that other evidence shows Jefferson had no objection to "symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government". Rather, the claim is that by upholding "separation of church and state", he objected to a state supported church, as is practiced by Britain with its official recognition of the Church of England.
...at which point I made the edit as you see below:
Despite his use of the phrase, the Library of Congress has provided copious documentation to demonstrate that Jefferson (and other early administrations) had no objection to (and even supported) church meetings within Capitol buildings and chambers. Rather, they claim that by using the term wall of separation between Church and State, "...Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion."
I have to say, with no offense intended to either of you or any others who take issue with me, but the LOC (among others who I can cite later) has provided more than ample evidence that a STRONG religious undercurrent was EXTREMELY evident in the contemporary times and practices of the founding fathers. To simply wipe away any notation that church services were held within the Capitol buildings until sometime after the Civil War, and that these practices were fostered (not just tolerated) by the Jefferson and Madison administrations is to be intellectually dishonest. To simply discuss Jefferson’s reply (and it’s modern interpretation) to the Danbury Baptists as if that ‘’private’’ letter was the definitive interpretation of the Establishment Clause and yet ignore historical precedent of the contemporary practices as documented by the LOC is simply an attempt to suppress the historical facts in order to promote a “contemporary” reinterpretation as pleases modern secular progressives.
Some may not LIKE the fact that Jefferson and Madison and many others attended church services ON federal property, and that this practice was carried on until sometime after the Civil War, and that it wasn’t challenged by the public or the contemporary politicians of the day, but the facts remain as they are and DESERVE a place in this encyclopedia ... if indeed this is a place to present uncensored history of the concept of separation of church and state as the founding father’s practiced it. Mactographer 22:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for responding. First, if I haven't been clear enough, I am not among those who take issue with you; your edits are not factually incorrect or unverifiable. Mainly, I've fired up this discussion because I've been trying to avoid an revert war over this. (The first edit of yours to this article which I massively condensed was because it's better that such US-centric discussion is kept in Separation of church and state in the United States.
Secondly, my only concern, if there is one, is with words like "copious"; I'd rather avoid such provocative language, if only to avoid the appearance of taking sides on such a contentious issue. (Articles on controversial subjects worded in a provocative way tend to attract chest-pounders from both sides of the divide, who do not share the same interest in improving them as you and Jonathunder evidently do; so it's something I have tried very hard to avoid in my recent re-writes of this article.)
Thanks for coming to the table. :) Collard 00:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


Greetings again, Collard. And thanks for bringing this to the forum. If the word "copious" seems provocative, I am not adverse to changing it to “ample” or “considerable” or some other agreeable term. I do however believe a fair and scholarly presentation will include something more than, Jefferson gave "symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government." Thus reducing the historic significance of the now greatly forgotten fact that church services were held within Capital buildings and that there is NO record of any type of objections to this practice. I believe it is painfully obvious to those who wish to dismiss this historical practice as recorded by the LOC, that it doesn’t fit in with their secular theology and they are reverting my edits simply to promote a secular POV. A modern understanding of Jefferson’s concept of separation of church and state REQUIRES that historical precedent be fairly and adequately represented. I have not removed the secular POV within this article. I have merely added WELL documented evidence which is contrary to the popular and erroneous belief among modern reinterpretors of what Jefferson’s words meant on this issue. I am only asking for intellectual honesty on this matter. Mactographer 03:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Both edited paragraph versions bother me.

  • Both versions begin "Despite his use of the phrase, the Library of Congress ..." Have the reported actions of the LOC occurred in spite of Jefferson's use of the "wall of separation" phrase? I think not.
  • One edited version says "... Library of Congress claims that ...", seemingly casting the LOC into the role of a POV advocate; a role in which I doubt that the LOC sees itself.
  • The cite at the end of the para points specifically to part two of a LOC exibition on Religion and the Founding of the American Republic which, according to its overview. "explores the role religion played in the founding of the American colonies, in the shaping of early American life and politics, and in forming the American Republic". If this LOC Exibition is to be cited, it may be being viewed here through too tiny a peephole.
      • The LOC does not "say" anything - though its site does present some material. The particular material referred to here is severe POV - it is a one-sided, slanted, often misleading & even erroneous argument for a particular position. --JimWae 20:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mactographer's argument that the facts remain as they are and DESERVE a place in this encyclopedia, but perhaps this page is not the place in this encyclopedia where those facts DESERVE to appear. This discussion relates to part of a subsection on the subject of the history of the term Separation of Church and State. Neither the aforementioned facts nor the disputed snippet seem to relate very strongly to that subject.

I suggest striking the disputed snippet entirely, and leaving most US-specific details to be discussed in the Separation of church and state in the United States page. -- Boracay Bill -- Boracay Bill 04:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if the entire article should not be renamed and reworked. Separation of Church and State is a distinctly American term (though it has been adopted to some degree by other English speaking countries.) As such, most of this article does belong in Separation of Church and State in the United States This article would be more appropriately entitled "Religion and Government," at which point one could discuss both those countries with a state religion, and those without, as well as the underlying philosophies. But to say that this particular article is meant to discuss international separation, when so much of the discussion is directed solely at the US, is intellectually dishonest. I actually feel this article should be deleted altogether, with a redirect to Separation of Church and State in the United States and a new Religion and Government" article. CBadSurf 20:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

We've already had a discussion about a possible renaming above, and there was no consensus about it. No, it is not a distinctly American term; you'll find people in almost any English-speaking nation using the term. Since this is the English-language Wikipedia, and "Separation of church and state" is a common English phrase for a political/legal/religious doctrine of religion/state separation, I see it as tough trifles if someone gets their feelings hurt about some American inventing it. (I'm British, by the way.)
As for so much of the discussion being devoted to the US: meh. I am, however, alarmed that you readily accuse people of "intellectual dishonesty" for saying this article is meant to discuss international separation (or rather, an overview of the history. That is, indeed, the intent of the article, and certainly the intent of editors like myself and others; that it is not (yet) living up to its intended goals speaks no ill of anybody's honesty. Collard 05:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I certainly appreciate the work you have taken on cleaning this article up -- it is much more concise and free of "chest pounding" than it was before. My reason for suggesting it be renamed (even though it did not gain consensus in October 2006, the majority was supportive) is: 1) Though this is the English language wikipedia it is used by people from many countries -- no other language even comes close i number of articles. I guess we can thank you Brits for making English the new universal language! 2) The issues of relations between government and Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism are very interesting, and don't fit well into an article entitle "Separation between Church and State" For example, I would like to know a lot more about the influence Orthodox Jews have in Israel. And the terms "Synagogue and State" or "Mosque and State" really just don't work for me. CBadSurf 08:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, in lieu of a consensus here, I've done a unilateral dispute resolution (smile): The disputed material has been struck entirely (as per User:Wtmitchell). But it can and must remain in Separation of church and state in the United States, where it definitely belongs.

Mactographer, thank you for hunting down this interesting historical information. I just think it's best if US-centric discussion (and the controversy that comes with it) stays in Separation of church and state in the United States.

CBadSurf, thanks for the kind words. :) And I think the discussion of the naming of this article should be re-opened and settled for good in a fresh discussion, though I don't agree with your reasoning. Can we consider this matter closed now? Lewis Collard 19:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1st Paragraph, Lock

I'm about to try and clean up the first paragraph, as requested in the ... well, request section ... but I was wondering if a lock should be placed on this article. Although I am unfamiliar with its history, obviously given the first section of the talk page (at one point it says that the article should've been cleaned up sometime in April 05) there have been problems. (Oh and by lock I mean where only advanced users can edit (no new users or non-users). Just a suggestion. Danielfolsom 21:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Probably a good idea to lock it. But on looking at it, I wonder if it could be made more npov. What about this: Separation of church and state is a political doctrine which states that government institutions and religious institutions should be kept separate from each other. The concept has been a topic of political debate throughout history.

The reason is that the current formulation could be interpreted that religion should be kept out of government, but that government need not be kept out of religion.

What do you think?

CBadSurf 23:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Collard 23:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I have made the update. Why don't you lock it if no one disagrees by tomorrow? CBadSurf 03:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro Picture

As to the picture in the introduction, I don't really see a parallel between Jesus and the money changers and modern governmental policy, especially since that story took place within a religious milieu (the temple).

But then why use an image that draws a parallel rather than one about the topic at hand? If no one objects I'm going to replace it.

Sorry if this was discussed previously, but I didn't see it. Bantosh 19:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No objection here. I don't see the connection either. Lewis Collard 19:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
No objection here either. CBadSurf 06:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Two points for the first person to come up with a suitable image to replace it. :) Lewis Collard 15:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Changed it, but still probably not the best it could be. At least Constantine was more directly political.Bantosh 20:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
...and the two points go to Bantosh. Good choice. :) Lewis Collard 20:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove NPOV tag ?

I think this article has gone through widespread and substantial improvements. As one of the editors who added an NPOV tag, I now think we can remove it. Any thoughts? CBadSurf 06:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Lewis Collard 20:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming/Merger proposal

I've just posted a suggestion here in the hope of better organizing this and related articles. For a unified discussion, perhaps any interested editors could offer their thoughts over there. Thanks, Mackan79 03:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the fixes. I reclarified "...the term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise," which I think is important, since "secularity" and "freedom of religion" are both rather general and can mean different things. Hopefully ok. Mackan79 01:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There's something I don't understand about the style used throughout Wikipedia: When I look at the hyperlinked table of contents for an article, it looks like it's in an outline format. My understanding of the basic rules for creating an outline is that you never create a lone sub-topic. That is, if you are going to indent under a topic to create a sub-topic, there should be a minimum of two sub-topics; otherwise it is one topic and so does not need a sub-topic. In this outline table of contents in this article that style appears in the "Enactment" section of the table of contents, which has a single sub-topic named "4.1 Varying views". 71.133.178.56 03:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)Joe Cash

see WP:GTL#Body_sections and WP:MSH -- Boracay Bill 23:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


Thank you for your response; but I have to admit, I still don't see why. To reiterate: if an outline entry has a sub-topic, then it should not be the only sub-topic. My reasoning is that the outline form is useful for creating a "top-down" design for a paper or a program, or many kinds of projects. Wikipedia is setting de-facto standards for style, I think. Exemplifying bad outlining style may cripple planning ability on a large scale, while exemplifying good planning skills for a broad audience could have vast ramifications. Of course a topic in an outline ought to be expanded upon when it is worthwhile, but to divide a topic into one "part" by creating a single sub-topic abuses the notion of "part". Something that has only one "part" does not have parts at all, it is a unit. Let me apoligize if I don't see the reasons for this in the WP style guide even though it is staring me in the face; but the only thing I could see was that the outline TOC is created automatically sometimes from headings. If that is the case, and I am correct in what I am saying here, then perhaps a syle rule should be added to encourage editors to make sure good outlining style is followed. I hope I'm not being too pedantic, but I think planning skills are very important, and WIkipedia is already a huge influence and I think its influence will grow quickly.

69.225.233.121 01:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Joe Cash

Not to be argumentative, but it is not clear to me that whatever authority you are relying upon for your basic rules for creating an outline should necessarily override de-facto wikipedia style guidelines with which it conflicts. May be; may be not. In any case, this is not a good venue in which to hold a discussion about that. Perhaps Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(headings) or Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy). -- Boracay Bill 08:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organizational changes in the Advocacy section

I have made two fairly significant changes to the Advocacy section. I dithered about discussing the need for these changes here before making them, but decided to go with the WP:BB approach because the changes, though organizationally significant, are simple and easily reverted if the feeling is that I've got it wrong.

Firstly, I have deleted the subsection titled Differences between Sunni and Shī‘a/Shi'ite Islam. At a minimum, this should have been a subsubsection below the subsection on Islam rather than standing alongside or (as it was) outside of Islamic views in the subsection ordering. Even as a subsubsection, though, I could see no relevance of the deleted material to a discussion of differences between Sunni and Shiia branches of Islam with regard to to advocacy of their views on separation of Church and State.

Secondly, I changed the subsection organization from

  • Advocacy
    • Religious views on separation
      • Roman Catholic views
      • Baptist views
      • Other Christian views
      • Islamic views
      • Other religious views
    • Secular views on separation

to

  • Advocacy
    • Roman Catholic views
    • Baptist views
    • Other Christian views
    • Islamic views
    • Other religious views
    • Secular views

I considered, alternatively,

  • Advocacy
    • Views of Christian religions
      • Roman Catholic views
      • Baptist views
      • Other Christian views
    • Islamic views
    • Other religious views
    • Secular views on separation

but in the end it didn't make any more sense to me, for purposes of this article, to gather the Christian religious denominations into separate subsections under a Christian views subheading than it had made sense to me to gather Religious views under a subheading. -- Boracay Bill 23:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change to lead

I replaced the former lead for a few reasons. Mainly, I think to characterize the separation of church and state as a primary component of secularization is controversial and somewhat misleading. "Secularization" is generally discussed as a social process; the separation of church and state, OTOH, is really about the government. Also, we already have links in the third paragraph to several of the related articles, which seems more helpful than cramming them all into the first paragraph. Mackan79 18:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I know that Secularization is a rather broad term, but I though that I would be appropriate to say that the separation of Church and State is one of its main elements. But that is not so important. I rather would like to have secular state (instead of Secularity (non-religiosity)) and State religion linked in the second sentence. People really seem to confuse this. Why else would they have a section on the contemporary USA in Historical persecution by Christians? That really ought to be moved to Separation of church and state in the United States. When I'm trying to bring this distinction into the Religious persecution article I have to link something, and I rather link Separation of church and state than Laïcité or Secularization. -Zara1709 18:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's fair to say the SoCaS creates a "secular state," though. As I suggested earlier, SoCaS is primarily a phrase used in reference to the United States, where the phrase originated. To say this is part of the "secular state," then, is fairly loaded. I'm not sure I totally understand the issue though; is there some reason this article needs to have that link simply because Religious Persecution links here? I'd still think "secularity of government" is a more accurate description of what SoCaS is about. Mackan79 18:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, SoCaS can mean disestablishment, but generally means something different (disestablishment is just one aspect). Otherwise, you just say "disestablishment." The lead as it was is quite precise as to how the phrase is historically used.
As to disestablishment, I think that's also why it links to State religion, which deals more narrowly with that issue of the established church. There's also an article disestablishmentarianism, but I think a link to here would be misleading. Mackan79 19:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I will take some time to think about this. -Zara1709 19:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the consideration :) I still find the reference to "secular state" problematic, though. I've read quite a bit about the separation of church and state, but don't recall ever having read that it makes the United States into a "secular state." Secular government, yes, but secular state suggests something much stronger. Unless you have some sources to support this, I'd still suggest the previous version, which was sourced, is more accurate. (I'm open to another sentence in the lead paragraph, just don't believe the "secular state" idea is what should go there.) Mackan79 20:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Just jumping in here to add some info from a related article. See this diff. -- Boracay Bill 23:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I saw that -- I was actually going to take issue with that as well. I'll have to try to find some sources, but I believe the phrase "secular state" generally means much more than merely a "secular government," the term we should be using here. This seems to be a recurrent problem on Secular state, with people constantly adding and removing countries from the list, since there's no clear definition of what exactly a "secular state" is. Mackan79 01:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moderates

Per the edit summary, I removed the statement on atheist opposition on the ground that it allows Christians to coexist... If we had a source that would be fine (possibly), but it doesn't seem that Harris's statements actually oppose separation (does he?). Mackan79 13:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sigh

I have tried, numerous times, to keep this article free of US-centric material, and have been reverted several times. User:Mackan79 said in his edit summary:

(I agree the second part should be moved, but we need to move it then, not just delete it. I planned to look at ways but haven't yet.)

So I think the best option is to move the paragraph here. As it happens, I think this is merely "critics say" fluff which has no place in either article, and that the last sentence makes no sense whatsoever, but whatever. Here's the deleted paragraph:

Scholars such as Philip Hamburger have argued that late 19th century popularity of Separation was fueled by nativism such as that of the Know Nothing movement.
Scholars such as Philip Hamburger have argued that late 19th century popularity of Separation was fueled by nativism such as that of the Know Nothing movement.

American critics of the modern concept of the "separation of church and state" argue that it is untethered to anything in the text of the constitution and is contrary to the conception of the phrase as the framers understood it. Philip Hamburger, University of Chicago law professor and prominent critic of the modern understanding of the concept, maintains that the modern concept is rooted in American anti-Catholicism and nativism. Hamburger connects the modern conception of separation to nativist groups, including the Know Nothings and the Ku Klux Klan, while noting that in 1947, of the nine Supreme Court Justices who held that the constitution required separation in Everson v. Board of Education, at least seven were Masons. [3] Hamburger argues that one of the primary proponents of Separation on the Supreme Court, Justice Hugo Black, had once been a member of the Klan and was known for anti-Catholic sentiments.[4]. Briefs before the Supreme Court, including by the U.S. government, have argued that some state constitutional amendments relating to the modern conception of separation of church and state (Blaine Amendments) were motivated by and intended to enact anti-Catholicism. [5] So this should not be misconstrued as a separation of church and state, rather a separation of government interference of public religion.

Lewis Collard! (natter) 10:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Talk pages don't normally have References sections, but bits of the #Sigh section above seemed to need one. I'm not sure if this will work long-term, but my hope is that this section can be kept at the bottom of the page and individual sections above it can place references into it.

Here are the currently-existing references:

  1. ^ http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
  2. ^ http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
  3. ^ Hamburger, Philip Separation of Church and State (Harvard University Press, New Ed edition 2004)
  4. ^ Hamburger, Philip Separation of Church and State (Harvard University Press, New Ed edition 2004)
  5. ^ LOCKE V. DAVEY 540 U.S. 712 (2004)

[edit] This Article is a FREAKING Nightmare!!!

Hi. I've just spent the last half hour trying to work out how to make this VERY IMPORTANT article somewhat readable and I have almost given up in disgust. This article approaches the issue from multiple angles (Historical, Philosophical, Semantic, National, Religious, Secular (if that can be distinguished from Religious)) Eighty percent of the stuff here is US-centric and repetitive and a lot of it's biased. I propose limiting this page to conceptual and historical development, and then listing different approaches to the separation of church and state, into which countries fall. For example, France is in strict separation, Iran is a Theocracy, The UK is somewhere in between because it has a state religion but is generally pluralistic, etc. This can be done partly with links to specific pages like Separation of church and state in the United States. I am also going to post my edit, which is fairly radical and does away with a lot of repetitive material. I expect it to be reverted shortly but maybe not.--Cdogsimmons 19:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point. As far as I know, the United States is the only country that has separation of church and state as a constitutional law, so there need only be an article about the United States. The British Queen appoints bishops, the President of China appoints Llamas in Tibet, and Canada allows provinces to fund religious schools. Do we need an article that points out that every country in the world has a different relationship between its government and its religions? --The Four Deuces (talk) 08:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong about the United States of America being "the only country that has separation of church and state as a constitutional law". It is also the case of France (article 1 of the constitution) and probably of Turkey to name but two countries. Hence, the relevance of the proposal by Cdogsimmons. --F Sykes (talk) 10:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biased article

The meaning of separation of church and state has long been twisted to mean "protecting the state from church influence" rather than protecting churches from state influence. Jefferson's intent in writing his letter was that of the second interpretation. Unfortunately, people often mix up these two ideas and treat them as "separation of church and state" the same. This article has lots of this type of "equivocation," if you will, of these two ways of interpreting this clause. 66.91.236.133 (talk) 23:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You are correct that the term "separation of church and state" includes both concepts, and that the article should distinguish carefully when it's speaking only of one and not the other. Moreover, your point of view -- that separation means just protecting the state from church influence -- is one of the points of view that should be described in the definition section. It is just one point of view, however, and as such cannot guide the entire construction of the article, since, as you concede, "people often ... treat [these two ideas] as 'separation of church and state'". If you have specific points in the article where it would be helpful to distinguish (as opposed to trying to conform the article to your personal perspective) then please point them out here. --Lquilter (talk) 00:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How many Supreme Court judges are Catholic?

I've moved the following recently-added paragraph here from the "Roman Catholic views" subsection in the "Advocacy" section of the article:

However, recently there have been attacks on the inclusion of Catholics in US government positions most notably by atheist Rosie O'Donnell: ""How many Supreme Court judges are Catholic?" and "[H]ow about separation of church and state?"" There is an anti-Cathlic movement in the United States based on the so-called separation of Church and State.
  • First, I don't think this digression belongs in a subsection which should be addressing Roman Catholic views regarding advocacy of Separation.
  • Second, as far as I know, Rosie doesn't hold credentials which validate her opinions in this area as either knowledgeable or authoratative.
  • Third, if this paragraph or something like it does find a home someplace in this article, it should probably be accompanied by a balancing opinion — perhaps this article from the Idaho Mountain Express quoting Law Professor, Richard Garnett on partial birth abortion (the context in which Rosie's remark was made) as having written: "the Constitution does not disable legislatures entirely from regulating what most people (not just Catholics, fideists, and sexists) regard as a particularly gruesome abortion procedure."
  • Fourth, I'm doubtful that the paragraph's characterization of Rosie as "atheist Rosie O'Donnell" is appropriate here. Such a characterization would, IMHO, need a supporting source.

I suppose I should be up front here in saying that I personally am nonreligious, pro-Separation in the sense of restricting State actions in matters of religion, pro-choice, male, not a medical doctor, and of the opinion that Partial birth abortion might be medically indicated in some cases (notably in cases where the fetus is found in late term to be hydrocephalic). -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] cases

Shouldn't there be cases in the article about this topic? Supreme court cases, such as Wallace against Jafree, I mean.204.147.20.1 (talk) 23:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two Kingdoms section

Regarding the Two Kingdoms section, the reason I removed it to the main article is basically because it seems more appropriate in the main article on the subject. With so much material that could be provided here, my thought is it should stay focused generally on the most discussed topics. I could see a section on the meaning of separation from a theological perspective, which might focus on this in part, but a large section just on Luther's views seems out of place in the section going through a very general history. Otherwise in the context of the history sections, I think it would probably need to be cut down to not much more than a sentence, which then would link to the main article. If there are other ideas I'd be open to that as well. Mackan79 (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Section

In the United States, separation of church and state is often identified with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…" The phrase "building a wall of separation between church and state" was written by the U.S. President Thomas Jefferson in a January 1, 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.[1]


--

I removed this section as such a focus on the United States in a lead is plainly biased with this concept.DDSaeger (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History section spinoff

Looking at the ancient and medieval history sections, I wonder if there shouldn't be an article just on the relationship between religion and government, apart from these articles on separation. This was done to an extent with the change of Separation of church and state in medieval Europe to Church and state in medieval Europe, but there still doesn't appear to be a general article on that topic of religion and government. At least in this article, the most natural material to move would be the material from before the modern concept of separation was developed, including a lot of background that isn't exactly within the topic of the article. Any thoughts on this? Mackan79 (talk) 19:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)