User talk:Seneschally
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[edit] Topical Dialogues
[edit] Ghinda's Groves
thank you for cleaning up your comment from the Ghinda page. Were you able to create a page about the personal history of the Italian? If so it might be justified to add them to the WikiProject Eritrea list.Merhawie 16:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vice Great Seneschal of Ireland
Another editor has listed an article that you have been involved in editing, Vice Great Seneschal of Ireland, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vice Great Seneschal of Ireland. Please look there to see why this is, if you are interested in whether it should be deleted. Thank you. --Eastmain 01:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Greetings. I originally nominated the article for deletion, and I've written a long explanation of my concerns at the AfD page. In a nutshell, the references you've provided tend to sustain the claim that 1) there is a Lord High Steward and 2) he has the power to appoint deputies for life. What is not, as far as I can tell, supported is the notion that one of these deputies is hereditary. The other things you've written suggest that Hugh Roe O'Donnell bestowed some sort of stewardship upon the O'Donnells of Ardfert, which I see no reason to doubt, but the article on the Vice Great Seneschal suggests that the dignity was somehow incorporated into the UK system of offices, which seems less likely. If you can clarify the nature and origin of the office, or quote from the grant creating the office, that would help immensely in evaluating its status. Please understand that to claim the existence of an office of state not found in any of the usual works on the Peerage is extraordinary, and tends to invite skepticism. I assure you that I find the bulk of your contributions to be of excellent quality, and particularly appreciate the work you've recently done on Lord High Steward of Ireland. I haven't involved myself in this because of a political disdain for incorporeal hereditaments or any such reason, nor do I support the general attack made on Mr. O'Donnell's credentials at the talk page. I simply find it unlikely that whatever office the O'Donnells of Ardfert hold is incorporated into the structure of the United Kingdom's Crown offices. I would be most glad to receive further information on this matter, at my talk page or added to the article, and if the existence of a hereditary deputyship is indeed proven, I will happily arrange to have the page speedily kept. By all means continue your good work on Wikipedia. Yours, Choess 04:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- The following is an extract from “The Life of Hugh Roe O'Donnell, Prince of Tyrconnell (Beatha Aodh Rua O Domhnaill”) by Lughaidh O'Cleirigh (original Gaelic manuscript in the Royal Irish Academy in Dublin), translated with notes by Rev. Denis Murphy, S.J., M.R.I.A., and published by Sealy, Bryers, & Walker, Dublin, 1893 (pages 304-307); also a later edition was edited by Paul Walsh and Colm Ó Lochlainn. Irish Texts Society, vol. 42. Dublin: Educational Company of Ireland, 1948: Ro tharmnaidheadh do mhuintir uí Dhomhnaill an turus do deachattor ar ro creachadh agus ro leirscriosadh sochaidhe leó do earccairdibh mic Muiris do neoch robtar fotha dia tocharsomh for longus agus ionnarbadh co húa nDomhnaill, agus ro gabhadh leó tri caisteoil do daghdúinibh an tíre, i. Leachsnamha, Caislén Gerr Arda Fearta, agus Baile Uí Chadhla, agus fosragaibhseat drong dia muintir occa niomchoimhéd. (pages 304, 306). Translation: The journey they went on was made use of by O’Donnell’s people, for they plundered and preyed many of FitzMaurice’s enemies who were the cause of his having come in exile and banishment to O’Donnell, and three of the chief castles of the territory were captured by them, i.e. Lixnaw, Caislen Gearr of Ardfert, and Ballykealy, and they left some of their people there to hold them. (pages 305, 307). see also my further comments below (4 Feb. 2007)Seneschally 21:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- You have greatly improved LHS article with generally useful citations. However, while that has raised the quality of that article it has not really solved the issues over the deputy. Though you have tried very hard finding genuine deputies for other offices that doesn't ipso facto prove the details about a separate office. There are many hereditary offices that have never had a deputy nor the holder any power to create one. Equally there are offices with a deputy appointed not by the holder but by the crown. So we have to establish details in vacuo for each and every office. [Just as a side note I see, looking at the latin, this office was a victim of one of those joyous errors of drafting where the clerk accidentally 'created' the office with an implied remainder to heirs general and it had to be fixed with a second warrant. Alci12 13:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments and suggestions. It has taken some effort to go back to the National Library in Kildare Street in Dublin to consult and track down the more detailed references at page level, as my own original notes were not that detailed. Whilst I move in the near future to address concerns about the VLHS article, perhaps you would consider removing the "lacking references" categories and box which you placed on the LHS article. Kind regards (Seneschally 14:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC))
- Happy to see the improvement. I've removed the main tag as most of the article is fine, I've added a section tag just to the area I mentioned above where I still don't think the case is made by citation. Alci12 17:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that Lord Shrewsbury over the years has made about 5 known, some possibly mis-guided appointments (e.g. to Anthony Boada) as Deputy Lord High Stewards of Ireland, mainly to individuals with no special connections to Ireland, and sometimes with a nominal county-specific stewardship. However, shortly after a critical review in the British Press (Evening Standard) in 25 June 2002, I am told that he granted the deputy role on a hereditary basis to Patrick Denis O’Donnell, a fellow British subject (and a respected Irish citizen), known for his historical interests and specifically in order to promote Anglo-Irish relations. During his remaining lifetime, this O’Donnell never used these titles, nor disclosed them widely beyond legal registration and immediate family circles. Lord Shrewsbury, apparently issued letters patent on 4 July 2002 at the House of Lords, explicitly citing the royal authority vested in him as hereditary Lord High Steward of Ireland, for the title of “Hereditary Lord Steward of Ireland for Tyrconnell” to Patrick Denis O’Donnell, to hold to the grantee “and to his primogeniture heirs for ever”, and in light of the grantee’s (as per the letters patent) “honouring his heritage through his career including peace-keeping service in the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation for Palestine, and his endeavours and publications in the field of social, cultural and military history” and considering the grantee to be “thereby well-suited to promoting Anglo-Irish friendship and understanding”. The grant also commemorated “the 400th anniversary of the Irish Diaspora since the Battle of Kinsale”, and the “Golden Jubilee Year of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second”. A further extract from the Letters Patent state that the grant is made “… with due regard to the ancient history and heritage of Tyrconnell, successively ruled by the O’Donnell branch of the Milesian dynasty of High-Kings of Ireland, as a sovereign kingdom also recognized by Henry II, King of England, and later as a principality and earldom until the collapse of Gaelic sovereignty and completion of the English conquest of Ireland following the Battle of Kinsale in December 1601, and mindful that this present year 2002 represents the 400th anniversary to commemorate the lifting of the siege of Kinsale on 9 January 1602 and exile with his retinue to Spain, and death on 10 September 1602, of Prince Red Hugh O’Donnell of Tyrconnell, and thereby beginning the legacy of the Irish Diaspora; And with due regard to my own family’s subsequent association with Tyrconnell granted as it was sometime thereafter to Richard Talbot, created Earl and subsequently Duke of Tyrconnell in 1689 by James II, King of England; and conscious of the legacies which the past four centuries have yielded for the people of Tyrconnell, the people of Ulster, and all the peoples of Ireland and Great Britain”. The letters patent also stated that the grant was also “for the purposes of acting in my stead if called upon to do so in the performance of the Curtana bearing the Sword of State, and/or a white wand at State ceremonials as granted by Queen Victoria on 15 September 1871….”. It is interesting to recall, that it was a predecessor Earl of Shrewsbury who wrote on 17 October 1602, to Carew, president of Munster, of the death of Prince Red Hugh O’Donnell of Tyrconnell in Spain on 10 September 1602 [1]: “The death of O’Donnell is very welcome news to us here, and no less cause to you there … ”. Thus the grant by the current Earl, the Lord High Steward of Ireland, appears to be a conciliatory and commemorative gesture, as ironically, given the historical background, the appointment of an O’Donnell to the Lord Stewardship for Tyrconnell and thereby as deputy to the Lord High Steward/Great Seneschal of Ireland, derives from an appointment granted by the direct descendant of both the last planter Earls of Tyrconnell and of Tyrone, English planters who enjoyed the re-granting of these titles upon their attainder from their original Gaelic holders, O’Donnells and O’Neills. Whether it should have been to this O’Donnell or another is a moot point, but whereas the descendants of the mainline O’Donnells (Larkfield, Newport, Castlebar, Spain, and Austria) can provably claim descent from the last Princes, Patrick Denis O’Donnell’s ancestry descends from the O’Donnells of Ardfert, who in 1601 were implanted to hold territories for Lord Fitzmaurice of Kerry (and not as a formal title, nor hereditary custos, nor seneschal). That custody was short-lived, given the defeat at Kinsale, and subsequent wars. But those O’Donnells left a trace, facilitated by their occupancy of part of the Commons of Ardfert, thus relieved of eventual landlord pressures, thereby surviving the Great Famine, and indeed helping other to do so, and tolerated by the Lord of the Manor, until in the early 1800s, some moved on into farming in neighbouring areas, notably John O’Donnell (1804-1879). So a one-time custodial role, on behalf of Prince Hugh Roe O’Donnell, is in the Ardfert heritage, if not in the blood. This direct descendant (Chetwynd-Talbot) of these planter Earls is therefore the senior descendant of the different 2nd Earl of Tyrconnel (4th creation [2], Carpenter), and is the senior kin, being of the same ancient lineage, as Richard Talbot (1630-1691), who was made Earl of Tyrconnell (3rd creation, Talbot), in 1686, and later Jacobite Duke of Tyrconnell (July 1689) [3]. The grantor is also descended from Richard Power (La Poer) the 1st Earl of Tyrone (2nd creation, 1673, extinct 1704), and Sir Marcus Beresford, 1st Earl of Tyrone (3rd creation, 1746) through the 2nd Marquess of Waterford, Henry De La Poer Beresford, who married Susanna Hussey Carpenter, Countess of Tyrconnel, above-mentioned. I have been told by Francis O’Donnell, that the Vice Great Seneschal nomenclature does not exist as an explicitly separate title of office, but reflects a responsibility inherent in the nominal Lord Stewardship for Tyrconnell, as a deputy to the Lord High Steward, deriving from a grant to that effect by Lord Shrewsbury to the late Patrick Denis O’Donnell, in an appointment of office made at the House of Lords in London on 4 July 2002, the terms of which specify its hereditary nature, and (a) in a subsequent letter from Lord Shrewsbury to O’Donnell’s son, Francis Martin O’Donnell, conveying condolences after his father’s death in early 2005, Lord Shrewsbury provided further guidance on the discharge of the office of Lord Steward, thus affirming its hereditary succession; (b) additionally, the title was included in the inheritance by the son following probate of the estate of the late father, and also (c) duly registered in the Registry of Deeds, as per references already provided. Of this documentation, the statutory memorial in the Registry of Deeds is in the public domain, and can be verified. I should clarify that I was informed by the holder that in the Republic of Ireland, such an appointment is regarded at best as a purely nominal private initiative – and not a title of honour - of Lord Shrewsbury, with no statutory powers in that State and jurisdication, and probably by many as an entirely irrelevant piece of archaic predeliction – like acquiring an old cross-bow or a castle, not much use for effective defence today, and probably of interest only to a collector of antiques, albeit requiring scrutiny as much as for any purported antique, in a world of increasingly common fakes and frauds. Additional material concerning this position (Lord Steward for Tyrconnell) is in private possession and not in the public domain, therefore cannot be accessed for wiki-purposes. I should extend my apologies to Mr. O’Donnell, and to Lord Shrewsbury, for any embarrassment caused as a result of my initial presumption and creation of the Vice Great Seneschal article – I had first thought this was a distinct title, and not a function of another title, namely Lord Steward for Tyrconnell.Seneschally 21:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for this lengthy, detailed and illuminating explanation. Although I left a note at the top of the Articles for Deletion page saying that you'd addressed my concerns in re. the title, but it got deleted anyway. However, the contents are NOT lost — deleted articles are still accessible to administrators indefinitely, and I've asked one of them to restore a copy of the page as a subpage of your userpage or mine, so we'll still have access to it. I'm not certain whether the Stewardship of Tyrconnell is sufficiently notable to warrant an article of its own, but it could certainly be discussed in the articles on the two O'Donnells, and the material on trial of Irish peers could be added to Lord High Steward of Ireland. Once I find out where he's restored the page, I'll let you know and we can sort out what to do with it. I appreciate your patience and courtesy in the face of a prolonged and skeptical cross-examination, and I thank you for the time and effort you've spent in explanation and assembling sources for our benefit here. Incidentally, since you mention Ruvigny, his work on the Jacobite Peerage has been digitized and is now available in Google Books; it can be downloaded as a PDF or, perhaps more importantly, searched online, something that may be of interest to you. Yours faithfully, Choess 04:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Choess, I see the VGS article was deleted and then restored, largely thanks to your own comments. I expected it might be deleted as the title doesn't exist as such, or at least not in that form. I had already added a section with information on deputised Lord High Stewards on the Lord High Steward of Ireland article, and also material on the trials of Irish peers. As for a possible article on the Lord Steward for Tyrconnell, or use of the related details I posted above, you are welcome to take a crack at it if you wish! For now, I'll pause and concentrate on a few other topics. Thanks for the tip on Ruvigny. I must also thank you for your keen interest, patience and encouragement. Kind regards, Seneschally 11:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC); revised Seneschally 13:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for this lengthy, detailed and illuminating explanation. Although I left a note at the top of the Articles for Deletion page saying that you'd addressed my concerns in re. the title, but it got deleted anyway. However, the contents are NOT lost — deleted articles are still accessible to administrators indefinitely, and I've asked one of them to restore a copy of the page as a subpage of your userpage or mine, so we'll still have access to it. I'm not certain whether the Stewardship of Tyrconnell is sufficiently notable to warrant an article of its own, but it could certainly be discussed in the articles on the two O'Donnells, and the material on trial of Irish peers could be added to Lord High Steward of Ireland. Once I find out where he's restored the page, I'll let you know and we can sort out what to do with it. I appreciate your patience and courtesy in the face of a prolonged and skeptical cross-examination, and I thank you for the time and effort you've spent in explanation and assembling sources for our benefit here. Incidentally, since you mention Ruvigny, his work on the Jacobite Peerage has been digitized and is now available in Google Books; it can be downloaded as a PDF or, perhaps more importantly, searched online, something that may be of interest to you. Yours faithfully, Choess 04:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that Lord Shrewsbury over the years has made about 5 known, some possibly mis-guided appointments (e.g. to Anthony Boada) as Deputy Lord High Stewards of Ireland, mainly to individuals with no special connections to Ireland, and sometimes with a nominal county-specific stewardship. However, shortly after a critical review in the British Press (Evening Standard) in 25 June 2002, I am told that he granted the deputy role on a hereditary basis to Patrick Denis O’Donnell, a fellow British subject (and a respected Irish citizen), known for his historical interests and specifically in order to promote Anglo-Irish relations. During his remaining lifetime, this O’Donnell never used these titles, nor disclosed them widely beyond legal registration and immediate family circles. Lord Shrewsbury, apparently issued letters patent on 4 July 2002 at the House of Lords, explicitly citing the royal authority vested in him as hereditary Lord High Steward of Ireland, for the title of “Hereditary Lord Steward of Ireland for Tyrconnell” to Patrick Denis O’Donnell, to hold to the grantee “and to his primogeniture heirs for ever”, and in light of the grantee’s (as per the letters patent) “honouring his heritage through his career including peace-keeping service in the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation for Palestine, and his endeavours and publications in the field of social, cultural and military history” and considering the grantee to be “thereby well-suited to promoting Anglo-Irish friendship and understanding”. The grant also commemorated “the 400th anniversary of the Irish Diaspora since the Battle of Kinsale”, and the “Golden Jubilee Year of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second”. A further extract from the Letters Patent state that the grant is made “… with due regard to the ancient history and heritage of Tyrconnell, successively ruled by the O’Donnell branch of the Milesian dynasty of High-Kings of Ireland, as a sovereign kingdom also recognized by Henry II, King of England, and later as a principality and earldom until the collapse of Gaelic sovereignty and completion of the English conquest of Ireland following the Battle of Kinsale in December 1601, and mindful that this present year 2002 represents the 400th anniversary to commemorate the lifting of the siege of Kinsale on 9 January 1602 and exile with his retinue to Spain, and death on 10 September 1602, of Prince Red Hugh O’Donnell of Tyrconnell, and thereby beginning the legacy of the Irish Diaspora; And with due regard to my own family’s subsequent association with Tyrconnell granted as it was sometime thereafter to Richard Talbot, created Earl and subsequently Duke of Tyrconnell in 1689 by James II, King of England; and conscious of the legacies which the past four centuries have yielded for the people of Tyrconnell, the people of Ulster, and all the peoples of Ireland and Great Britain”. The letters patent also stated that the grant was also “for the purposes of acting in my stead if called upon to do so in the performance of the Curtana bearing the Sword of State, and/or a white wand at State ceremonials as granted by Queen Victoria on 15 September 1871….”. It is interesting to recall, that it was a predecessor Earl of Shrewsbury who wrote on 17 October 1602, to Carew, president of Munster, of the death of Prince Red Hugh O’Donnell of Tyrconnell in Spain on 10 September 1602 [1]: “The death of O’Donnell is very welcome news to us here, and no less cause to you there … ”. Thus the grant by the current Earl, the Lord High Steward of Ireland, appears to be a conciliatory and commemorative gesture, as ironically, given the historical background, the appointment of an O’Donnell to the Lord Stewardship for Tyrconnell and thereby as deputy to the Lord High Steward/Great Seneschal of Ireland, derives from an appointment granted by the direct descendant of both the last planter Earls of Tyrconnell and of Tyrone, English planters who enjoyed the re-granting of these titles upon their attainder from their original Gaelic holders, O’Donnells and O’Neills. Whether it should have been to this O’Donnell or another is a moot point, but whereas the descendants of the mainline O’Donnells (Larkfield, Newport, Castlebar, Spain, and Austria) can provably claim descent from the last Princes, Patrick Denis O’Donnell’s ancestry descends from the O’Donnells of Ardfert, who in 1601 were implanted to hold territories for Lord Fitzmaurice of Kerry (and not as a formal title, nor hereditary custos, nor seneschal). That custody was short-lived, given the defeat at Kinsale, and subsequent wars. But those O’Donnells left a trace, facilitated by their occupancy of part of the Commons of Ardfert, thus relieved of eventual landlord pressures, thereby surviving the Great Famine, and indeed helping other to do so, and tolerated by the Lord of the Manor, until in the early 1800s, some moved on into farming in neighbouring areas, notably John O’Donnell (1804-1879). So a one-time custodial role, on behalf of Prince Hugh Roe O’Donnell, is in the Ardfert heritage, if not in the blood. This direct descendant (Chetwynd-Talbot) of these planter Earls is therefore the senior descendant of the different 2nd Earl of Tyrconnel (4th creation [2], Carpenter), and is the senior kin, being of the same ancient lineage, as Richard Talbot (1630-1691), who was made Earl of Tyrconnell (3rd creation, Talbot), in 1686, and later Jacobite Duke of Tyrconnell (July 1689) [3]. The grantor is also descended from Richard Power (La Poer) the 1st Earl of Tyrone (2nd creation, 1673, extinct 1704), and Sir Marcus Beresford, 1st Earl of Tyrone (3rd creation, 1746) through the 2nd Marquess of Waterford, Henry De La Poer Beresford, who married Susanna Hussey Carpenter, Countess of Tyrconnel, above-mentioned. I have been told by Francis O’Donnell, that the Vice Great Seneschal nomenclature does not exist as an explicitly separate title of office, but reflects a responsibility inherent in the nominal Lord Stewardship for Tyrconnell, as a deputy to the Lord High Steward, deriving from a grant to that effect by Lord Shrewsbury to the late Patrick Denis O’Donnell, in an appointment of office made at the House of Lords in London on 4 July 2002, the terms of which specify its hereditary nature, and (a) in a subsequent letter from Lord Shrewsbury to O’Donnell’s son, Francis Martin O’Donnell, conveying condolences after his father’s death in early 2005, Lord Shrewsbury provided further guidance on the discharge of the office of Lord Steward, thus affirming its hereditary succession; (b) additionally, the title was included in the inheritance by the son following probate of the estate of the late father, and also (c) duly registered in the Registry of Deeds, as per references already provided. Of this documentation, the statutory memorial in the Registry of Deeds is in the public domain, and can be verified. I should clarify that I was informed by the holder that in the Republic of Ireland, such an appointment is regarded at best as a purely nominal private initiative – and not a title of honour - of Lord Shrewsbury, with no statutory powers in that State and jurisdication, and probably by many as an entirely irrelevant piece of archaic predeliction – like acquiring an old cross-bow or a castle, not much use for effective defence today, and probably of interest only to a collector of antiques, albeit requiring scrutiny as much as for any purported antique, in a world of increasingly common fakes and frauds. Additional material concerning this position (Lord Steward for Tyrconnell) is in private possession and not in the public domain, therefore cannot be accessed for wiki-purposes. I should extend my apologies to Mr. O’Donnell, and to Lord Shrewsbury, for any embarrassment caused as a result of my initial presumption and creation of the Vice Great Seneschal article – I had first thought this was a distinct title, and not a function of another title, namely Lord Steward for Tyrconnell.Seneschally 21:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- Happy to see the improvement. I've removed the main tag as most of the article is fine, I've added a section tag just to the area I mentioned above where I still don't think the case is made by citation. Alci12 17:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments and suggestions. It has taken some effort to go back to the National Library in Kildare Street in Dublin to consult and track down the more detailed references at page level, as my own original notes were not that detailed. Whilst I move in the near future to address concerns about the VLHS article, perhaps you would consider removing the "lacking references" categories and box which you placed on the LHS article. Kind regards (Seneschally 14:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC))
[edit] John Brooke-Little
Thanks for adding to the John Brooke-Little article. Do you think that it is appropriate to put the KM and GCGCO links first in his postnomials? It would seem that the British Orders and decorations would go before foreign ones. Thanks.--Eva bd 00:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comment. I suppose it depends on perspective - in Britain, yes, you would be right, but in cyberspace? I'm not so sure. Perhaps others can advise. I just thought that KM, GCGCO are included, as the text mentions these knighthoods anyway, and they would be far more important than some of his lesser British decorations. In so far as a Knight of Malta is thereby ennobled (but a British Knight of St. John is not necessarily), I would think that in cyberspace at least that should rank first over the other decorations. Cheers. Seneschally 11:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is centuries old practice in almost every country of placing their own orders first, then foreign orders by various methods. Attempting on wiki to try to assign some arbitrary ranking of all orders whereby to place foreign decorations in between national decorations is almost unavoidably going to become original_research and/or POV Alci12 13:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough; I would support that if it is the established convention, as you infer for wiki too. In the case of John Brooke-Little, being Roman Catholic, and as a member of the SMOM, his knighthood is intrinsic, not "foreign". However, because he was a British subject, his British decorations come first, i.e. his secular citizenship in this case should determine it, and not the "nationality" of the orders, as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta is also recognised by many sovereign states as a sovereign entity in international law, and issues its own passports to some of its members. It would be more complicated for someone who has both British and Spanish citizenship and honours from each. Seneschally 13:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Potentially it would for dual citizens, though probably we could establish a primary citizenship (residence or such like). Alci12 14:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well said, I agree. Cheers. Seneschally 17:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Potentially it would for dual citizens, though probably we could establish a primary citizenship (residence or such like). Alci12 14:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough; I would support that if it is the established convention, as you infer for wiki too. In the case of John Brooke-Little, being Roman Catholic, and as a member of the SMOM, his knighthood is intrinsic, not "foreign". However, because he was a British subject, his British decorations come first, i.e. his secular citizenship in this case should determine it, and not the "nationality" of the orders, as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta is also recognised by many sovereign states as a sovereign entity in international law, and issues its own passports to some of its members. It would be more complicated for someone who has both British and Spanish citizenship and honours from each. Seneschally 13:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is centuries old practice in almost every country of placing their own orders first, then foreign orders by various methods. Attempting on wiki to try to assign some arbitrary ranking of all orders whereby to place foreign decorations in between national decorations is almost unavoidably going to become original_research and/or POV Alci12 13:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] references
- ^ The Life of Hugh Roe O’Donnell, Prince of Tirconnell, by Lughaidh O’Clery, with Introduction by Rev. Denis Murphy, S.J., M.R.I.A., Dublin, 1893, wherein the Shrewsbury letter is quoted on page Cliii
- ^ George, 3rd Lord Carpenter, was created Viscount Carlingford and Earl of Tyrconnel on 1 May 1761. He was succeeded by his daughter and only heir, Susanna. Susanna was grandmother to the 19th Earl of Shrewsbury, Charles John Chetwynd-Talbot (1830-1877), from whom descends the present 22nd Earl of Shrewsbury. The Tyrconnel title became extinct upon the death of John Delaval Carpenter, 4th Earl of Tyrconnel, at age 63 on 26 January 1853. He had previously succeeded his uncle George Carpenter, 3rd Earl of Tyrconnel.
- ^ The Jacobite Peerage has been extensively described by the Marquis de Ruvigny. The Jacobite titles are considered “unofficial” titles in the UK. See Debretts Peerage & Baronetage, 1995, page 28
[edit] Tyndall
Certainly was me. Seemed and seems very unlikely, so I've added a {{fact}} to James Scott, 1st Duke of Monmouth article. It was also me who removed most of the origins section, but I see you've put it back. It says that one Bethóc married Hadrian de Tynedale. Is this Hadrian the same person as Uchtred of Tynedale, husband of Bethóc, daughter of Domnall Bán? If so, the only descendants I've seen mentioned are those of their daughter Hextilda and her husband Richard Comyn. Bethóc is likely to have been born long after 1040, the current guess is that her father was born in the middle of the 1030s. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lord High Steward of Ireland
Thank you for cleaning up the article I tagged. I have removed the cleanup tag, as appropriate. While I appreciate your consideration, in the future feel free to remove tags you have addressed. Again, thank you for your cleanup effort. Improving the wiki is always awesome. :) Vassyana 22:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
