Talk:Senyera

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[edit] Oldest Flag in the world?

Following a comment appeared in the article claiming this fact I thought an explanation had to be made.

It is not the oldest flag in the world: Just think of, as an example at the flag of Asturias, this Cross was carried by Don Pelayo (later King Pelayo), in the decisive Battle of Covadonga against the Moors in 722. But then, think at all the counties, regions, territories that coexisted in those years in Europe, (Even coutries like France existed before the Senyera was invented). And before the christians, think of Al-Andalus, Rome (the SPQR) and the rest of the world. Even the Vatican one is proved to be older. China or Egypt or Mesopotamia already had flags when people in Europe were discovering bronze.
It is not the oldest coat of arms in the world: Again, think of Rome's (SPQR), the bourgogne cross, the french fleur de lys or just the cross carried by Don Pelayo.
It is not the oldest flag in continued use: Again, forgetting China's (which I do not know), The senyera can doubtly be consider the oldest in continued use because neither Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Roussillon, Balears have used it ever since, other being used, for small or large, amounts of time. It is because of that that this title should go (again, in western world) to the Dannebrog (Dannish flag), which fell (According to a 17th c. myth), from the sky among the Danish forces during the battle of Lyndanisse in Estonia on June 15, 1219. According to some, the Danish levy navy immediately adopted it as its symbol, making Dannebrog the oldest national flag in continued use. However, real proof of use dates back at best to Valdemar IV (king 1340-75). This way Denmark and Austria can both claim the oldest flag, that of Austria being known on seals from 1230. But again for Austria, a seal is not a flag. And also that the Senyera has no national status.

Regards, Maurice27 22:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proportions of the Valencian autonomous community Flag

After a quite extensive search throughtout the whole internet, I haven't been able to find any single source to state that this flag has 1:2 proportions. No laws, no estatutes, no decrees... nothing. I have to say, that I ALMOST couldn't find anything to state it is 2:3 either... Only the source I gave some weeks ago, and that "some users" didn't believe... BUT, then, I thought about where to adress to ask for a confirmed source. And what better choice than the Spanish Vexillological Society (the SEV, see [[1]]) which, BTW is a member of the Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques. So, I believe this source to be the most trustworthy of all.

This said, I went to SEV site, [[2]], and found a "banderas" (flags) link on the left. Then, I clicked on the "Comunidades Autónomas" link, see [[3]], and then on the "Comunidad Valenciana/Comunitat Valenciana" one see [[4]], to get here: [[5]], where it clearly states a proportions of 2:3.

But, maybe this society simply had these same proportions for all spanish autonomous communities flags... WRONG! let's see some examples:

CASTILLA Y LEÓN: proportions 76:99. See, [[6]]
CASTILLA-LA MANCHA: proportions 1:2. See, [[7]]
COMUNIDAD DE MADRID: proportions 7:11. See, [[8]]
PAÍS VASCO/EUSKADI: proportions 14:25. See, [[9]]

Being ALL OTHERS of proportions 2:3.

I sincerely hope this FINALLY ends the fight about the proportions. I gave the most trustworthy source available, which NO ONE can doubt. Regards, --Maurice27 14:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legality in Spain

I heard that the senyera was legally displayable in Spain since 1975 before the death of Franco. Can you confirm? --Error 01:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png

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BetacommandBot 05:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png

BetacommandBot 23:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The origen

It is not true that the flag of Catalonia was pontificien, the only demonstration that is an umbrella for a pope in red, yellow and blue paint In the eleventh century

Sorry, you are wrong. The two freschoes were painted last thirteenth century after the King Peter the catholic's gift.--Sclua (talk) 19:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] colours vatican flag

"Kingdom of Aragon used and adopted the colours of the Vatican" (in the eleventh century says the aragonesist theory). "According to the "Encyclopedia Britannica", the flag of the Holy See's Navy(!!) from XII century was red and yellow vertical" Could the author of this sentence show me where does Britannica say this?

"The Vatican City State has never had an army, navy or airforce" says this Wikipedia article [10]. Who is right?

And there's another conflict on wikipedia articles [11], [12]. So there are two incompatibilities articles on wikipedia with this sentence.

"In the whole middle age red was the colour of Catholic Church, and gold was used for the crossed papal keys. Napoleon mixed his army with papal, so pope Pius VII decided new colours should be found." Pius VII choose gold and silver, and those were accepted in 1825. The flag was used until 1870, when the state was integrated into Italy. When the City of Vatican was formed as separate state, it took the same flag in 1929. (Željko Heimer, 16 May 1996 [13])

Whitney Smith.Flags Through the Ages and Across the World. McGraw-Hill Book Co.: New York (United States). 1975 (1st ed.) ISBN 978-0-07-059093-7

--Sclua (talk) 12:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

That particular wikipedia article you mention 1 is wrong! Just take a look at Battle of Lepanto (1571), The papal navy, 1500 or The list of Papal ships.

"Papal ships will be referred as HHFS - His Holy Father's Ship - before ship's name.These abbreviations will distinguish same ship´s name from different nations and government warships from pivateers or privately-owned merchantmen.

The Pontifical Navy (Marina Militare Pontificia) was formed by the John VIII (875-881) and ceased to exist when the main naval base Civitavecchia was incorporated into the Kingdom of Italy in 1870. Untill 1815 the Navy ships were united with the Merchant Navy under supervision of Prefetto di S. Angelo as commisario del mare. In 1798 twelve the most valuable ships were taken by Napoleon to meet their fate at Aboukir on August 1st, 1798. With the return of the Pope Pius VII to Rome on May 26th, 1814 the Navy was reorganized passing under control of the Camerlengo di Santa Romana Chiesa. In 1817 a Custom Service was formed. In 1828 the Presidenza delle Armi was constituted and the navy passed under its control." --Maurice27 (talk) 21:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, there was a pontificial navy, but please tell how to find the article on the Britannica, would you please be so kind to paste part of the article about the colours of the navy in the eleventh or twelveth century or tell me the name of the article? thanks. --Sclua (talk) 19:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I've supressed a source clearly biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.125.97.102 (talk) 23:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flags of Sicily and the city of Naples

Today the island of Sicily and the city of Naples still have the colours gold and red in their flags and coat of arms and both were in the Crown of Aragon, should this be mentioned? Although its not strickly "bars"? - Gennarous (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Falses statements

This article is full of falses statements and lies. It needs a revision.--Sclua (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The article does need a revision, but please provide source on which statements are false and use fact tags on unsourced or dubious facts instead of deleting them to give other editors an oportunity to see the tag when reviewing the article and source them or change them. This article is from 2004, where online citations were not used, so it's severely under-sourced --Enric Naval (talk) 13:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

County of Foix with the same arms. A prove that were not "aragonese" this arms

The current version has to be cleared all and start it as new. It is impossible to improve all this amount of lies and nonsenses. It is false that Desclot or Muntaner (Foix and Lauria) called "Bars of Aragon" to the personal signal of the kings; it is false the theory of the papals colours; the legend of Wifred was against normands and, of couse, there were pales in the seal of Ramon Berenguer IV count of Barcelona as accepted by all the members of the International Heraldry Academy.The Aragonese only are editing with Aragonese nationalists sources. Outside Aragon nobody waste the time with such amount of nonsenses. --Sclua (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I have warned Sclua for repeatedly ignoring sources and POV-pushing[14]. The only sources he apports are his personal interpretation of a flag image and a wikipedia article that he had just reverted to a POV version --Enric Naval (talk) 19:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Sclua, you will have to produce the exact page of Faustino Menéndez-Pidal's work that you are referring to, and then explain what the heck this has to do with removing the government of aragon source and it's caption here and here which cites a work by aragonese historicians Fatás and Redondo. Just claiming that a certain historician claims something without citing where or when he does so is not enough. Also notice that there is a difference between saying that the seal had bars and saying that the coat of arms was a symbol of the counts. I haven't read "palos de oro y gules" myself, but I can see at this source that they are using it to source this sentence "Las interpretaciones y versiones de la leyenda son muy variadas, aunque todas responderían a la finalidad de ofrecer un origen ilustre, mítico-heroico si se quiere, a las armas de una de las monarquías con más poder e influencia de todo el medioevo, aun a sabiendas que dichas armas tuvieron hasta finales de la Edad Media carácter de armas familiares de los descendientes del primer príncipe de Aragón y conde de Barcelona, y no armas territoriales" which happens to be on agreement with what the source that you removed says (apologies for people who can't read spanish).

I can also see a dossier by the Center of Politic and Institutional Estudies from Government of Spain that says that the coat of arms is a symbol of the count-kings that were sovereigns of Barcelona[15](page 4), which is also not in disagreement with the caption that was sourced by the government of aragon source, and those are the guys that edited Menendez-Pidal's "Historia de España" that won the 2000 National History Prize(footnote on page 1).Stating that an historician says that there were bars on that seal is ok, but using that info to make claims about what the bars represent is original research. You also making that mistake on the article you link to, putting together several primary sources to make synthesis and extract conclusions from the primary sources. Sorry, but your evidence is not convincing at all, and your edits are always towards eliminating a certain type of sources and information, and are always giving more weight to the Catalonia and taking weight from Catalonia. Always. Your insistance that every aragonese theory is "another lie of the aragonese nationalists"[16] including its repetition at edit summaries is not helping at all --Enric Naval (talk) 13:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The Aragonese member of International Heraldry Academy Faustino Menéndez-Pidal tells in all his works ("I seminario sobre heraldica y genealogía", "Apuntes de sigilografía española", "Los Emblemas heráldicos: una interpretación histórica" "Palos de oro y gules"...) that the signal was the personal first, and familiar then, signal of Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona. All his three sons (there's a seal of Ramon Berenguer Count of Provence and Sanç with bars too (see L.Blancard, "Iconographie des sceaux et bulles conservés...") inherited from his father the emblem (not only Alfons) so this arms were not Aragonese but of the lineage of the Counts of Barcelona.

The emblem was lineage emblem and the kings considered themselves of the lineage of the Counts of Barcelona. King James the first, (1213-1276), wrote or dictated at various stages a chronicle of his own life, Llibre dels fets, where you can find this statement, and the Chronicle of the king Peter, the Ceremonious,(1336-1387), chapter XXI where you can read "the kingdom, without aragonese male descendent, was transfered to the count of Barcelona ("el dito Regno en defallimiento de heredero masculino prouino á Conte de Barchinona"). In the same chronicle you can read that the king Alfons, the chast (1163-1196) "left the aragoneses arms and signals and get the bars" [17] so the bars were not aragonese. In this chronicle, version of 1366, there's a miniature where you can see Wilfred the Hairy, count of Barcelona (878-897), the beginner of the Barcelonian lineage, painted with the coat of arms of the pales red and gold. This is an anachrony but it means that the king related, again, the signal to the Counts of Barcelona.
there's documents of the Kings and Queens where is affirmed that the signal originally was of the County of Barcelona (or Catalonia) like the Queen Maria de Luna on 1396 "signal of the County of Barcelona, bars yellow and red" and the King Martin the humane on 1406 "the flag of the Principalty of Catalonia, the called royal flag."
All the members of the International Heraldry Academy accepted bars in the seals of Ramon Berenguer IV and i think, they are not Catalans nationalists.
Could anybody tell me a Middle Ages sepulcher of a sovereign with wrong arms? The analysis of the paintings showed that they were of the same period of other Middle Ages paintings so it doesn't matter if it was painted on the 11th or 12th Century and there is no bars in any tomb of the aragonese kings before the union.
After the union, the sovereign was the ruler over Aragon due to his title of King of Aragon and was the ruler of the Catalonia due to his title of the Count of Barcelona. The territories of the king of France were the Kingdom of France but the territories of the king of Aragon were not the Kingdom of Aragon. This is the reason to created a modern word like Crown of Aragon but in the Middle Ages all the territories did not have name but "territories of the king".

Zaragoza adopted the coat of arms of its king, Alfonso VII of Lion-Castilian

Nobody outside Aragon disputes the bars in the seals of Ramon Berenguer IV. In the Middle Ages this escutcheon was familiar not territorial escutcheon. The prove is it was adopted by Counts of Provence, Counts of Foix, Giudicis Arborea (party) or kings of Mallorques (all they descendents of Counts of Barcelona and not all descendents of Petronila of Aragon). The lineage, as the same kings consider themselves, was the lineage of the Counts of Barcelona. . *i have read "Actes du II Colloque international d'héraldique". Breassone.1981. Académie internationale d'héraldique. Les Origines des armoiries. Paris. ISBN 2-86377-030-6. "Les pals de Barcelone s'etendent à l'Aragon, à la Provence et au comté de Foix" (the bars of Barcelona were extended (adopted) to Aragon, Provence and County of Foix". Léon Jéquier.
On 1150, Ramiro, king of the Aragonese, was still alive but there are no trace of pales or seals with pales in his documents. Neither documents of Petronila. Zaragoza adopted the emblem of the lion of his king, Alfonso VII of Lion-Castilian, king of the Kingdom of Zaragoza from 1134. It is another prove that Alfonso, the Battler, had not emblem.
From 1150, on the Middle Ages, the arms were too the arms of the kings of Aragon, counts of Provence, counts of Foix, kings of Mallorques, and party, Judge of Arborea, Kings of Sicily...--Sclua (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

About the sentence "Nobody outside Aragon disputes the bars in the seals of Ramon Berenguer IV.", you need to find a source that actually states that. Currently, your usage of that sentence is WP:SYNTH synthesis because you are putting together several sources that don't say such a thing and using them to back that sentence. Please find a source that says such a thing.

Also, please stop making original research by making interpretations of primary sources. You need a verifiable reliable source for interpretations of things like the miniature of Wilfred the Hairy. You say "This is an anachrony but it means that the king related, again, the signal to the Counts of Barcelona.", but this is just your personal interpretation of a primary source, and is not an analysis published on secondary sources.

You are also making heavy use of synthesis and original research on analyzing Ramiro's and Petronila's documents, saying that the adoption of the emblem of Zaragoza is a proof of Alfonso the battler not having an anblem, etc, etc, etc. It's OK to discuss the sources on the talk page, but you are insisting on making original research all the time despite the warnings I have been giving you, and you should stop using these arguments to back stuff on the actual articles or to rebuff arguments with sources, even if the sources are tertiary sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Senyera

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[edit] Oldest Flag in the world?

[edit] Proportions of the Valencian autonomous community Flag

[edit] Legality in Spain

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png

[edit] The origen

[edit] colours vatican flag

[edit] Flags of Sicily and the city of Naples

[edit] Falses statements

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