Talk:Senyera Real

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How could an anon user be allowed to a add wikiproject template? Isn't that a job for a registered and contributing member of that wikiproject? It's just a thought... --Maurice27 00:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27, rude unbeliver, by WP:Verifiability (please read it) the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. In your case, saying that 2:3 are official is not verifiable and neither a truth, because anywhere in Valencian law it isn't saying to be 2:3. Instead, it's verifiable that 1:2 and 2:3 are used both nowadays. But it's also verifiable that these are being used in different way, the 1:2 is always hoisted at top and, specially, in very historical simbols of Valencia. Also he have sources of 1:2 used before 1982, but until now there are no source for 2:3. In th other hand the 2:3 is used in a common and general way because of mimesis to proportions of the other two flag used on official buildings, the Spanish one and the European one. So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 09:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Benimerin (aka Joanot), you have been already proven in Valencian Community talk-page to be wrong and you keep reverting sourced and referenced edits on this article also. In addition, the reasons given by you are completely uncyclopedic. If you keep reverting you will be reported. Since you created your new account, you haven't done a single edit outside this valencian flag matter (see [1]). You may believe to be a paladin of the truth in this matter, but the worst thing is that you are backing your point with erroneous edits:

You are wrongly using the FIAV symbols (the senyera CAN NOT be used at the sea and there can't be 2 flags used de facto at the same time.
The mere saying that there is a de facto flag means that there is a de jure (or official) one... (You missed that point)
You are giving, as sources, drawings from medieval times which are not even in scale STATING the flag to be 1:2. Should you know that in those times, vexillological rules were not yet created.
This sentence from you: "So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative.", just gives us all a perfect explanation in how you are using POVish and uncyclopedic reasons to back your complete lack of knowledge in vexillological matters and terminology. Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as how any given editor would like it to be.

On my part, I have given sources like:

Explanation by the Sociedad Española de Vexilología (SEV) about its 2:3 proportions. See (Spanish Vexillological Society on the Valencian flag)

Pictures of 2:3 flags hoisted on the most notorious valencian and spanish government building:

- The Palau de la Generalitat. Here([2] and here [3])

- The Council of Alcoy. Here ([4]). Even if not deployed, picture is taken so close that is very easy to compare the length and width with the flag of Alcoy (a 2:3 flag see:[5]).

- The Spanish Senate. Here ([6]). It can be clearly seen that the valencian flag (6th from left to right) has exactly the same length and width as all the others, excepth for the Ikurriña which has 14:25 proportions (half way between 2:3 and 1:2)

A decree published in the BOCV by Conselleria de justicia, interior y administraciones publicas de la generalitat valenciana: "DECRETO 116/1994, de 21 de junio, del Gobierno Valenciano, por el que se regulan los símbolos, tratamientos y honores de las entidades locales de la Comunidad Valenciana. [94/4514]" see:[[7]]

I quote:

Artículo doce. Criterios heráldicos y vexilológicos

2. La bandera será preferentemente cuadrilonga de proporciones 2:3, es decir, una vez y media más de largo que de ancho, conforme el anexo III de este decreto.

Why would the Valencian government make a law asking to its municipalities to have preferabily 2:3 flags if the community flag was to be 1:2?

I would like to point out that it is possible to a territory to have an unofficial flag in addition to the official. The very same European Union has an unofficial alternative flag with a ratio of 3:7, rather than 2:3, in the Strasbourg hemicycle. (see: [8]). This doesn't mean that both european flags (2:3 and 3:7) have to become a de facto version of each other as Benimerian is trying to oblige us to believe.

I sincerely doubt that any other matter in dispute in wikipedia worldwide has more sources, references or proofs that the ones I have contributed with. ONLY flags hoisted in official buildings (legislative, executive and/or judiciary branches) in Spain do have an strict protocolary code. (see: Use of the Spanish flag and other ensigns. Ministerio de Asuntos exteriores y Cooperación)

This is the second time I have to engage in a edit war with you because of this matter. I will copy/paste this paragraph in the WP:HV so that other users with interests and knowledge about flags may control and improve this article while preventing unbased edits like yours, which fall into WP:OWN, WP:V and WP:3RR (as explained by me to an admin here: [9])

--Maurice27 11:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear rude unbeliever: Why would the Valencian government make a law asking to its municipalities to have preferabily 2:3 flags if the community flag was to be 1:2?. It's a question that wikipedians does not matter here. The fact is that municipal flags is preferably in 2:3, but it doesn't mean that it's uniquelly 2:3. In fact, there are municipalities with a flag designed in a different proportion than 2:3. It means that when a municipality approves a flag it can be different.

In other sense, when something is than obviously than traditional, it is not needed to make a law to define it. Valencian crowned senyera is a flag of both Valencia City and Valencian Community. When you see the public buildings property of Valencia City Council, you can see than both 1:2 and 2:3 is used (ie Tower of Serranos is 1:2, City Hall is 2:3), and also these buildings property of the Valencian Generalitat both are used (ie Lonja de la Seda is 1:2, Palau de la Generalitat 2:3 is used at floor and 1:2 is used at top). You can say that 2:3 is used, but you have no reason to say that it's the official proportions. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 12:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC) PD: Again, the legal source given from SEV, a privative entity, does not mention anything about proportions.

The three references collected by Maurice27 only uses one of both proportions, but it does not give any official status to any proportions as the organic law is silent about it. The fact verified is that 1:2 and 2:3 is used both, but any proportion is standarished as official. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 21:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think when the senyera is used together with the other two flags, Spain and the EU, it's 2:3 because of reeference #3. If Valencian senyera can't be more bigger than the Spanish flag, so the height of senyera should be more little than the Spanish flag, and both should have the same width, respecting ratio 1:2. But as the Senyera neither can't be more little than "other" flags, such with the EU flag, the height should be extended at the same size of European flag, but the width is maintained. And the result it can't be 1:2 but 2:3, it means, a mimecking. But, when the Valencian senyera is hoisted alone, it's always 1:2. It's another reason why 1:2 is more representative. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 12:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, you are exposing completely unverified and/or invented arguments. Flags with different proportions can very well be hoisted aside like in the UN, NATO or EU. (see flags hoisted in the UN). You are starting to become an edit war specialised user who don't care about sources, references and opinion from other users. 3 other users apart me have expressed their opinions that, following the sources given by me, 2:3 proportions are the ones. You have already been reported for WP:3RR. I will, again, undo your edit to leave the one with sources. If reverting again, you will be reported for preventing WP:V (you are erasing sources given by me) and WP:NOR (your theory that 1:2 is more "representative"), apart that your countinuous edit warring. --Maurice27 13:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not unverified, it's on Law 8/1984, article 10.3. Instead of me, you are actually telling things that aren't verifiable. In the law sources, here are two, see fotnotes, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy, and the Law 8/1984 about Valencian Symbols, in this document there is no mention about proportions, so you CAN'T consider a proportion as official, neither 1:2 neither 2:3. Actually you are giving missinterpretation of the sources deliberatelly. We can say that both are being used, we can say that one is more common and general and the other is more solemn and specially used when it's alone. But you CAN'T to invent that 2:3 is official (legal source?) 1:2 is "unofficial" (legal sources?). In adding, I set the 1:2 proportion at top of article because it's the shape used when it's alone, as there are enough pictures proving that.

The sources you're giving are only making reference to the legal sources, so... why to use indirect sources when we can have the first source, it means, the legal references related to the flag?. The indirect source is simply using one of both shapes of the flag, but they aren't telling that one of them is official. Please, Maurice27, stop joking us. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Ooops! I left my opinion at User:Maurice27 talk page instead of posting it here. Anyway, it seems that there are two usages of flags but, as i explained there, sourced materiel prevails over unsourced one. WP:V is one of our core policies and it should be resepcted. I had offered a middle ground; leaving the sourced 2:3 while adding a footnote explaining that 1:2 is also used and how/why, etc... -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 22:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It's exactly the same thing I'm adding in the article, explaining when is often used 1:2 or 2:3. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

That the 1:2 is also used, was already done, but still I added that is commonly used ([10]). As for the how and why... it remains a mistery... --Maurice27 23:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Benimerin, as already said, The 1:2 flag is already mentioned and explained to be commonly used. On the other hand, your edit explaining it to be "traditional" or "when it's the only one hoisted flag, so this usage would mean more majestic usage" is pure invention on your part, as in almost one month you have been unable to prove with any source or reference. So untill you prove it, it will be deleted for WP:V.--Maurice27 13:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

About the consideration of traditional for 1:2 (or modern by 2:3) is because of historical reasons, but I accept not to include it until I have an external source that until 1983 there are no 2:3 senyeres, that I will find soon. But I've recovered about mimecking of Spanish and European flags because it's perfectly referenced at Article 10.3 of Law 4/1984 about Valencian Symbol that you're removing repeatedly. And about "non-governamental", it's another error: the tower of Serranos, Lonja de la Seda, tower of Quart, at top of Palau de la Generalitat, etc... all these are a public buildings, so FIAV symbol "public land use" must be also marked. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 20:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27, you are giving indirect sources that refers to only one legal source, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy. I'm giving two direct legal sources, not only the Statute, but also the law 4/1984 about Valencian Symbols specifically. With your reversions, you're deleting the last source, in adding to back to a version which is making several missinterpretations, because there's no official proportions, and omits the mimecking of Valencian flag to sizes used in Spanish and European flags. I've accepted by now to delete the consideration about traditional or modern of each shape used, and now all is referenced. Which is the problem now?. Stop to play reversion game. If you are bored, go to play Space [catalanist] Invaders in Atari, it's more funny and doesn't disturb anybody. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You are erroneously using symbols which you don't know:

You are reverting me to add that the flag is used on sea and government buildings without even knowing what you are talking about. Not a single time you will see the Valencian flag on ANY ship (as that is forbidden by international law, but of course you didn't know it...)
You are reverting me to say that these flags are used "de facto" --> this is astonishing
You are reverting me to say that the 2:3 is used because of mimetism with the ratio of the flags of Spain and the European Union. This one is perfect, because you are stating that flags are changed in ratios just to mimetise with others... Well, then why germans do not change their flag to 2:3 when hoisted with the one of the EU like in this picture at the german parliament?
You are erasing each and every time the book reference that I added. Maybe that a published book explains that your edits are flase is driving you mad... Who knows...
You are erasing each and every time the pictures taken at the council of Alcoy and the spanish senate that I added. Is there any special reason for that?
And the best one, in order to keep the 1:2 flag as the principal one, you are even capable of describing the 2:3 as "Valencian flag often used in governamental buldings" as seen here. ROFL Without wanting, you are making it completely official.

But, I have sources, I have references, I'm not inventing arguments (WP:V, I have 5 other users agreeing with me, I'm not a sock puppeteer, I haven't broke 3 times in a week the 3RR... etc..etc... Sincerely, Joanot, it is up to you to continue digging your hole. Meanwhile I'm keeping record of everything --Maurice27 23:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

All questions have been answered already above. Read again. There's no difference between historical buildings and governamental buildings, both are in public land and, so, property of the government. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 04:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

1 Dispute resolution
2 Source erasing by Benimerin
3 name of the article
4 Correct proportions of flag is 2:3

[edit] Dispute resolution

I was asked to watch over the article. Pretty much, is the only issue dealing with the ratio of the flag? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 23:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Zscout370, thank to intercede between us. The issue is mainly about the opinion of Maurice27 stated from Talk:Valencian Community that the proportion of 2:3 is the only one official, but I give two law sources wich are silent about proportions. Because of it, we had have to see pictures of usage of Valencian flags and we had seen two ratios used for Valencian flag used in public buildings, 1:2 and 2:3. The first one is used when it's alone, and the second is used when it's together with the Spanish and European flags. Maurice27 insists that that 2:3 is official because it's used often in governamental buildigns, but I'm telling that it can't be considered official because the law is silent about proportions, and because there's no difference between historical public buildings, such Lonja de la Seda, and governamental buildings, because both are in public land and, so, property of the government, so both flags are used by government.

In the other hand, he's continously deleting the two direct legal sources there exists about the symbols, in order to replace a indirect source of a particular person making observation about flags of Autonomous Communities in Spain. He's also deleting a specific legal reference about the size of Valencian flag wich is telling its dimensions can't be bigger than Spanish flag neither can't be smaller than "other entities", such European flag (see footnote #3), only because personal opinions of his own. I'm interested in this article because I was one of the main editor of the same article in Wikipedia in Catalan, the language of Valencian Community, which was considered as quality rated article. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 04:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC) PD: Sorry about my English, I'm not native and I'm not fluent.

It is ok about the English, I understand you well. Here is one thing that I notice, you both seem to mention a law that the Valencia flag, when flying, cannot be bigger or smaller than that of the Spanish or the EU flag. What they mean by that is the height of the flag, going from top to bottom, can be the same as the Spanish flag, but cannot be higher. So that means you cannot have a 5x8 Valencia flag flying next to a 4x6 Spanish flag. So when you have a Swiss flag flying next to the Spanish flag, the height of both flags need to be, lets say, 3 meters. But those are usually for government rules; the civilian population can do whatever they please. As for FOTW, we always take our results from various laws and observations. I can easily tell you from the US that our flag, while officially having a size of 10x19, I seen flags mostly in 3x5. I think I know why Maurice is saying the flags are in a 2x3 ratio; that is the same ratio as the Spanish flag and that is what the flag makers are coming out with. I know it will be too early to judge, so I will need to do some reading on my own. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Absolutly. What Benimerin does not understand is that to fly a smaller or bigger flag, you don't change the ratios! You just make it bigger or smaller. About me erasing references by Joanot, I beg you to read some of my edits' references in order to find out who's the one erasing. BTW, the book I used as reference and of which I included a picture as I have it at home, showing clearly a 2:3 flag, is the same book used as reference at FOTW presented by Santiago Dotor, 11 December 1998 --Maurice27 06:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Even my guys at FOTW are saying they have no idea about the ratio. I honestly believe that until we do, I am thinking we should just ax the infobox in the article, display both flags and just figure out which one to use on stub tags and such. The law doesn't say anything about ratios of this specific flag, so it would be hard for us to make a decision. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem to use 2:3 on stubs tags because it's the more smallest in width and helps to make it more useful in small word size. In the other hand, the only doubt is wich flag to use in Valencian Community. One compromise solution would be to use 2:3 featured at Valencian Community, as it's an article about an political entity and this ratio is often used its government buildings, and in Flag of Valencia to feature 1:2 flag as it's only about the flag. What do you think? --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 06:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason why I suggested 2:3 for the stub tags and such since 2:3 is the same ratio as the Spanish flag and I have no idea why some have chosen the 1:2 ratio. Since I am not in Spain, I do not have the easy answer. But I am thinking as long as we put both of the flags on here and just say "The ratio for the flag is not mentioned in law, variants of the flag existed in the 1:2 and 2:3 ratio." and then cite FOTW and others you can think of. I would also suggest a rename of the images too, since that is a problem I also notice. I plan on making a 1:2 ratio version of the flag in SVG and I will rename the 2:3 version later. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a decree by the valencian community asking for its municipalities to use preferably 2:3 ratios. As Banderas (which is also contributing to FOTW) said, "attending to that legislation for municipality flags, I would not understanf the regional one to be different". I tried everywhere to find a translation of this decree in english. Nevertheless, I will post in Bandera's talk page this point just to see if he has been able to find it. This decree is the closest thing the valencian community has done to describe the ratio of its flag. I will also re-add the references and sources (mainly flag on government buildings and the book by Calvo & Grávalos) that Benimerin has erased by his edits. --Maurice27 09:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a personal interpretation of your that doesn't matter here according to WP:NOR. The only fact is that the specifically decree about the Valencian flag is silent about proportions. You can ask yourself why, but you won't find the answer in Wikipedia Community. I don't understand why you ignore continously the decree related to Valencian flag, and decree related to symbols of municipalities have no relation to the subject. I have the answer out of here, based on historical reasons, but I'm still finding a source that proves why 1:2 is used. But, by now, I've deleted the consideration of traditional or modern of each variant because you accused me that these are personal interpretations of mine, but you are going on your own another ones in all things you simply dislike. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 09:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No, not my "personal interpretation"... You know very well that 4 other users, apart me, have agreed to that point on my talk-page. And you know it very well as you have answered to them in the very same talk page. You are the only one to say that this decree is worthless, the only one.

About the "decree related to valencian flag", as you name it, is none other than the Statute of Autonomy. If you are trying to say that I am ignoring it, may I remind you that I already used it as a reference 9 minutes after I created the article? This is the third time you accuse me of falsities, and the third time I prove you to be wrong, and counting... At least you admitted you were using "personal interpretation in the consideration of traditional or modern of each variant"... That's a start, you're on the good way.

Are you done preventing good faith users to improve the article? or you will keep accusing of falsities? --Maurice27 10:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but all users you have asked answered you that there are no official proportions altough 2:3 is often used. Simply that. And, please, read again "decree related to valencian flag"[11] and the Statute of Autonomy[12], and compare both contents. The first is published in December 13th of 1984, and the second is publised in July 15th of 1982, in the DOGV (Valencian Government Butlletin). You are deffinitely a blind person, as I said at Talk:Valencian Community already. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 10:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

There are what the users answered you:

User:Ignaciogavira: "Aunque efectivamente no existe ninguna disposición legal que fije las proporciones de esta bandera, es cierto que las medidas habituales son las estándar 2:3 en todas las banderas autonómicas ..." (translation: Altough in fact there doesn't exist any legal disposition fixing the proportions of this flag, it's true that the often used proportions is 2:3 in autonomous flags...") (see).
User:Banderas: "Efectivamente, no hay una definición legislativa específica sobre las proporciones de la bandera de la Comunidad de Valencia..." (translation: In fact, there aren't specific legal definition about the propotions of the flag of Community of Valencia..." (see).
User:FayssalF: "Lo qué entiendo es que hay 2 formatos. Ningun formato es oficial. Esto significa que ambos son aceptables." (translation: I understand that there are two formats. Any format is official. This means that both are acceptable) (see).
User:Valentinian: "FOTW describes the proportions as unspecified but that 2:3 would be the intention of the relevant law. [...] If (as it appears) 1:2 is a more traditional form in common use, my personal take would be to write something along the lines of "2:3 (law of 19xx), 1:2 (traditional, also commonly used)" in the infobox and add a footnote something like this: "Law no. XYZ issued by XYZ of 19xx specifies the proportions as ... . Proportions of 1:2 have been used since ... and remain in common usage" (see).
User:Zscout370: Read above.

Is it so clear now?. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 10:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

What I (and others) say about this debate is that the common standard proportions in spanish flags are 2:3. That is to say that when the law don't specifies another proportion the standard must be applied. It is very frequent in spanish dispositions about flags not specify proportions, but it is commonly accepted that 2:3 applies. --Ignacio 10:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

But, in spite of it, Ignacio, there are a lot of 1:2 used for Valencian senyera. You can see it at Lonja de la Seda, at Torres de los Serranos, at Torres de Quart, at Palau de la Generalitat, and a large etc. You can also see historical pics using a very large Valencian senyera (pic in Medieval Art Collection of The Hispanic Society of America where "Centenar de la Ploma" is carrying a very large senyera[13], pic of portulans[14], pic in churches, etc.), and I think that there are historical reasons to using a 1:2 when it's flown alone. Also I think that 2:3 is only used in the cases defined by Article 10.3 of Law 8/1984 of Valencian Government. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Any of these is an official (government) building like the Palau de la Generalitat, Council of Alcoy, Spanis Senate, which all do hoist 2:3 flags, and which you are taking care of erasing from the references section as fast as possible...

BTW, this is what the users answered me. Parts which you didn't add before (funny on your part):

User:Ignaciogavira:las medidas habituales son las estándar 2:3 en todas las banderas autonómicas y en general en las españolas. Eso quiere decir que, salvo que se especifique otra cosa, como ocurre con la de Castilla-La Mancha (y aún así se utiliza la 2:3) o la del País Vasco, las proporciones de la bandera deben ser esas. [...]es posible que en algún sitio puedan verse estas banderas (1:2), pero nunca con carácter oficial

(translation: the standart measures are 2:3[...]This means that, if not stated the contrary[...] those are the proportions to be used.)

User:Banderas: Pero en el decreto 116/1994 de 21 de junio, del gobierno valenciano, por el que se regulan los símbolos, tratamientos y honores de las entidades locales de la Comunidad Valenciana, encontramos en el artículo doce: Criterios heráldicos y vexilológicos, punto 2.la bandera será preferentemente cuadrilonga de proporciones 2:3, es decir, una vez y media más de largo que de ancho, conforme el anexo III de este decreto.En el Anexo III se ilustra una bandera rectangular de proporciones 2:3. Ateniéndonos a esta legislación para las banderas municipales, dificilmente se entendería que la autonómica fuese diferente...

(Translation: decree 116/1994[...] 2:3 proportions[...] Following this legislation for municipalities flags, I'll hardly understand the autonomous to be different.)

User:FayssalF:Esto significa que ambos son aceptables. Sin embargo, damos más peso a material con fuentes y por lo tanto no puedo apoyar algo que no lleva ninguna fuente y confía solamente en usos ocasionales. Apoyo totalmente la versión de Maurice obviamente

(Translation: We give more weight to any material with sources, for which i can not back up something which does not have any source and only believes in occasional uses. I'm backing totally Maurice's version obviously)

User:Valentinian: (You wrote it yourself) "FOTW describes the proportions as unspecified but that 2:3 would be the intention of the relevant law."

User:Zscout370: (Reading above). he is still investigating

Benimerin, you gotta be kiding us. I can't find another explanation. Are you trying to say that I am lying about what other user said??? even when it is registered and logged???

In addition, I will quote both links described by you above, as you accuse me of "ignore continously the decree related to Valencian flag":

LEY ORGÁNICA 5/1982, DE 1 DE JULIO, DE ESTATUTO DE AUTONOMÍA DE LA COMUNIDAD VALENCIANA [DOGV núm. 74, de 15 de julio].

-Artículo 5 -Punto Uno. La tradicional señera de la Comunidad Valenciana está compuesta por cuatro barras rojas sobre fondo amarillo, coronadas sobre franja azul junto al asta.

Ley 8/1984, de 4 de diciembre, por la que se regulan los símbolos de la Comunidad Valenciana y su utilización [DOGV núm. 211, de 13 de diciembre]

-TÍTULO I (De la bandera) -Artículo 2: La Bandera de la Comunidad Valenciana es la tradicional «Senyera» compuesta por cuatro barras rojas sobre fondo amarillo, coronadas sobre franja azul junto al asta.

They say the same thing! Exactly word by word. Ask yourself... How could the text of law by a government state another thing that its very own statute?

And do I ignore it? As far as I'm concerned, this very same text, obviously translated to english, is what became the very first lead paragraph since the very first edit to create the article at 20:01, 9 July 2007: "The flag of the Valencian Community is the traditional Valencian crowned Senyera, composed of four red bars on a yellow background, crowned with a blue strip party per pale next to the spear with 1/4 of the total length." (see Creation of the article)

Any other false accusation claiming I didn't include what laws say about the flag?

If I'm " a blind person", you have to be probably illiterate yourself. --Maurice27 11:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The quotations bold made by you are personal interpretations with no external reference about why proportion might not be mentioned, and it's out of the topic. I've also added my opinion that 1:2 is traditional because of historical reasons, but as you dislike it, you don't count on me. We, the wikimedians, aren't authority here, according to WP:NOR, neither you. In the other hand, the Statute covers several things, but Law 8/1984 only covers specifically and extensivelly about Valencian symbols, and if in this last document there is no mention to proportions, but it only says that it shouldn't be bigger or smaller to Spanish or European flag, it's significant. It means that several ratios can be used, as the proofs is showing in pics that there are being used by government ratio 1:2 when it's alone and ratio 2:3 when it's together with flag of Spain. The version left by Zscouts have more sources and is the most equilibrated one and the most concrete one, IMHO. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

ROFL!! Now, the fact of quoting word by word a law is a personal interpretation...

ROFL!! Zscout hasn't done any version!!! He has just modified the infobox while investigating!! "more sources and is the most equilibrated one and the most concrete one" <-- Those are your sources! "Equilibrated"? "Concrete"? It's nothing but your very own version! Who are you trying to fool? --Maurice27 12:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

You're starting to be unrespectful, as you often do when you have no arguments. I do not want to waste more time of mine with you. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 12:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Feeling like losing the north, right? ;) --Maurice27 13:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Falks ! I´m afraid this discussion will be endless, because there is no official definition of the flag´s proportions. Common sense would follow national and most local flags, which are 2:3. It doesn´t matter where some 1:2 or 2:3 flags are flying (whether the spot is more historical or important). I don´t see any reason for older units to be mainly 1:2, either. It´s just a matter of personal taste, and, therefore, a problem difficult to solve. Publish both versions and leave it to the readers. --Banderas 16:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

And that is what I have done. Both versions are displayed (I even renamed them to show an even playing field.) I also am trying to remove most original research in the article. I consider this dispute solved. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Can I continue editing now the article in order to expand it?. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 21:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source erasing by Benimerin

May this section be used to explain that the erasing by Benimerin of the book "Banderas de España" as a source/reference is completely unjustified. The book is also a reference at FOTW, which proves the quality and veracity of the content. An exhaustive research about all the flags in the history of Spain. The only problem (for Benimerin) is that it has a 2:3 flag. --Maurice27 16:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

We solved the ratio issue, we are displaying both flags. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] name of the article

Sorry for my bad english. I think that the name of the article must be the valencian one, Senyera Reial, not the castilian one. In these cases, of non-english realities, the most logical thing is to try the original name or the english name, but it has no sense to try a name in a third language. I hope I've been able to express what i mean. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.202.236.224 (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)