Talk:Senso Ryū Aikijūjutsu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Martial arts Portal
This page is part of the Wikipedia Martial arts Project.

Please use these guidelines and suggestions to help improve this article
if you think something is missing, please help us improve them!

You may also wish to read the project's Notability guide.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
WP:POL WP:PROTECT Stwalkerster [ talk ] 22:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Enio Soto Roshi?

There were many references to Enio Sotou Roshi for many years, what happened to them?

In other websites it mentions that Mr. Hanulak got permission to teach from Mr. Sotou [[1]] Greenskeepercarl (talk) 13:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)greenskeepercarl


The research in to Enio Sotou has given us nothing, as far as we can tell no one has ever been able to produce evidence of the exists of this person. Any hard evidence is welcomed as we would like to put the controversy to rest.


It appears Hanulak Sensei has taken his website down and all other sites controlled by him. This is strange because a week ago someone came trying to edit the article to distort the facts.


What ever this things sucks balls anyway the author has no rights this is just stupid. I don't want the article to be part of this stupid martial arts thing but what ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 22:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There are no Third party articles there was on Behrens but they where in the now dead Karate Illustrated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 22:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

AS I the author stated I don't care I don't want to be part of the project but as I the author have no rights on this silly board, I will simple state this sucks.

It is true that the author has no rights to an article in wikipedia. An author IS respected for his knowledge and manners. Wikipedia is a cooperative effort: most people need some help at the beginning with the technical markup and with the social conventions. Don't give up on us: we are trying to bring this article up to the wiki standards - we need your knowledge! jmcw (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

They don't want the knowledge, every time I add something to the article they come alone and edit it out or remove it, I put the student list up, someone took it out, I put the Menkyo holders up, someone took it out. Hanulak Sensei took the Hombu website down this was the only place left with the student list now it's gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 18:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

These things need citations: from a book, from a magazine, from a web site. Thats what {fact} means: a verifiable citation is needed. Nate, David and I are trying to help: this article WILL be put up for deletion - we are trying to get it into good enough shape that it will survive. Citations will help a lot - try to find some. jmcw (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at Articles for Deletion (Afd) page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Martial arts; that is whats ahead for this article. jmcw (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
that is why I put up this article to help get information on the Behrens and hopefully fill in the gaps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 19:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
at [2] there is a review of Behrens book that references the January 1995 "Taekwondo Times" magazine.

A subsequent article on Torishimaru appeared in the Jan. 1995 issue of "Tae kwon do Times" magazine with photos of his students demonstrating techniques in the book to a reporter from the magazine, trained in martial arts, who was convinced of Behrens and Torishimaru's validity.

I'm not doing this to slam Behrens or Hanulak in fact I have much respect for both being a form student, I'm doing this to help fill in the gaps and find the true the "validity" for me was never in question I really enjoyed my training, but there are gaps in the history only Behrens or his former students can fill in and being that there are no Senso Aikijutsu websites and Torishimaru took theirs down, and Hanulak sensei has now taken his down, it seems this article is doomed.

You could buy a back copy for $4 at [3] and (maybe<g>) solve many notability and verifiable citation problems. jmcw (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks but already tried that, in fact I have it but there is nothing there that isn't in his book Teachings of a grandmaster which I have as well and there is nothing their either. I have tried contacting him through his publisher and talking to his students but no one will or wants to talk about. It's sad really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 22:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photo rights

Tenteisai, can you get permission from the copyright owner to add the photo at http://www.jungsuwon.com/training-ins.html into Wikipedia commons so we can use it in the article? --David from Downunder (talk) 00:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? it has nothing to do with aikijujutsu that is Tae Kwon Do (Korean Karate) if you want photos I have some that I took from the Hombu for Senso Ryu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.132.177.200 (talk) 01:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I posted this to the wrong talk page. Please indent your responses, avoid inserting unnecessary blank lines, and remember to sign your comments. Thank you. --David from Downunder (talk) 01:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I have done all I can to keep it from being deleted if it gets deleted Oh well I tried. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 02:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
What have you done to prevent them from being deleted? --David from Downunder (talk) 02:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thanks for resizing the images and if it's deleted it's deleted i don't care about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenteisai (talk • contribs) 20:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome. --David from Downunder (talk) 02:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

The page is now protected for five days. During this time, please try and find common ground and arrive to a version that all can live with. If you cannot, this is a good time to pursue dispute resolution such as third opinions or requests for comments. If you are ready to resume editing or to contest the protection, place a request at WP:RFPP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I have unprotected, based on this request. If there is need for assistance related to disruption, please place a note at WP:AN/I ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

What is the policy for citing press releases? It seems biased to reference a "create your own" press release website. The veracity of that data would definitely be in question. This particular page seems to reference that service on several occasions (actual URLs are different, but the content is the same.)Greenskeepercarl (talk) 12:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)Greenskeepercarl

If it's a press release it would be a primary or self-published source The policy on sourcing covers this and it is ok for some things date & location of their head quarters for example, but not contentious of unduly self-serving claims. --Nate1481(t/c) 14:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
it can't be self serving if you are not a member of the group, I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.132.177.200 (talk • contribs)
A source can be self serving if is published by the organisation and it promotes the organisation. Advertising press releases are fine as primary sources, but they are not reliable sources should should not be used for some types of claims, for example a press release saying "X martial art is lead by Mr. blogs" is fine, but not "MR. Blogs is an ex-SAS hand-to-hand combat instructor and the most deadly man in the world". --Nate1481(t/c) 09:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Nate Organization has a Z not s (preceeding unsigned comment was added by user:Tenteisai)
Tenteisai, actually it is correct both ways. See spelling differences. BTW, it is considered VERY bad form to change someones comments on a talk page.—Mrand Talk • C 03:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Tentesai... How many times do you have to be told not to interfere with other people's talk page contributions? Logging in anonymously as User:99.132.177.200‎ to do it doesn't help. --David from Downunder (talk) 14:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Tentesai blanked this discussion again while logged on anonymously as User:99.132.177.200‎. Warning posted to user talk pages. --David from Downunder (talk) 07:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American or Japanese

After some deeper research Hanulak's website[www.aiki-jutsu.com] states that Senso ryu is a Japanese martial art and Behrens created it himself(while this maybe true) Behrens and his students from New Mexico claim a Tsihiro Oyama taught Behrens for 27 years, which ever the case may be Senso Aikijutsu most surely has that early 1960-1980 urban American New York New York survival flavor to it which characterizes most martial arts coming out of New York at the time. So with that I added the American martial arts Category to the article.

[edit] Copyright?

The stuff under history and technique is not copy righted the board http//:sensoryuaikibudo.yuku.com has cut and pasted and older form of this article to there board not the other way around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.132.177.200 (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The material at http://sensoryuaikibudo.yuku.com/topic/577 is dated 01/09/07. The wiki page was created in 2008. It is a copyright violation to copy text directly from a web site into wiki. This is serious violation. jmcw (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
it's my board beside the fact that I put no copy write on the board or the information. Less not forget the BB are not websites there BB But I see what you mean. In the future I would gentle suggest you contact the person who added the information before you just cry wolf.
Did you actually go and delete the material so that you won't get caught? jmcw (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see - you updated the web article so that the modify date there is later than the wiki article date here. http://sensoryuaikibudo.yuku.com/forums/111/t/Senso-Ryu-Aikijujutsu-.html jmcw (talk) 22:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

<-Tenteisai, re your edit comment "it's my website I can't copy write my" (a) you are only an internet nom-de-plume claiming that it is your website; (b) in any case, if it is your website, then there is the problem of conflict of interest and reliable sourcing. --David from Downunder (talk) 00:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

How it follows all the info on A. the Senso Ryu website and B. the info from everywhere else that is the reason for the source material. Two the fact that I changed the BB should tell everyone that I"M THE OWNER OF THE BOARD you goofs I can't copy write myself Fuck tards.
Third what the hell is a nom-de-plum????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.132.177.200 (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
It's just a blog entry - so it can be changed by anyone, so it doesn't prove tha you are the site owner. It's irrelevent anyway, it's just your claim that you changed it. I cannot follow the rest of your response - please try to write in clear sentences. Calling other editors "goofs" and "fuck tards" is totally unacceptable. -- David from Downunder (talk) 09:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you guys check into anything at all, it's not a blog it's a BB and if you check by say, I don't know, writing an e-mail to the owner "ME", you would find out, but no will just say you stole it. Beside the fact that if you bother to check it's a private BB only members can post on it. But hey you guys know everything, yes I admit it, I'm guilty I committed copy write fraud, I'm such a sad little person that I felt the need to feel superior and intelligent that I stole something someone else wrote and put it up here where other sad little people will try to change everything about it and pick it apart. So I guess the article should be, I don't know, deleted. Clear enough for you. You guys win. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.132.177.200 (talk) 10:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
"It's just a blog entry - so it can be changed by anyone" or "It's just a BB entry - so it can be changed by anyone"... same conclusion so don't be pedantic.
Anway, definition from [www.pvt.com/oth/glossary.htm] BLOG: Short for "Web log," a specialized site that allows an individual or group of individuals to share a running log of events and personal insights with online audiences. Blogs with political or current-events themes have grown in popularity and become "soap boxes" for instant mass-audience commentary. which is what that BB is functioning as.
How about signing your comments? You've been told enough times, but all you do is delete the messages from your talk page and ignore the advice/requests. Thanks. -- David from Downunder (talk) 11:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
OK --Tenteisai
I have a confession to make I have been having fun with you all, I really wanted to see what it would take to get kick off or banned from Wiki, you guys are really to soft, I got like 17 warnings, come on guys, I would have kicked me after the second offense. The stuff at the beginning of the article and under history are all stuff I wrote myself, so I don't think that falls under copy write law. (saying gently) Had you took the time to simply e-mail my email on the BB you would have known that, and second anyone can look at my board but no one could edit or change anything but me, so the claim "anyone can change anything" is moot point, you can't even post anything their unless I approved it. The history of Senso Ryu Aikijujutsu is very hard to get info on as Behrens doesn't talk about it and none of his student will either, because they don't know or simply won't talk about it. The conversation on Budoseek I pointed to has a student of Behrens, on the BB talking about Behrens, and who he said he learned form a Toshiro Oyama, the person then simply never returned to the BB,which brings us to Hanulak who (on his website) states that Behrens created Senso Ryu from different arts he studied, while this may be true, Behrens has said in the past and is still saying a Toshiro Oyama was his teacher for 27 years. If you are going to Delete the article please do, if you wish to just keep it open and improve it please do , as I said before I'm not questioning the validity of the system I'm simply trying to clear up some of the history, I put this up in hopes that someone would contact me with more information, as no one has I have to assume I know all the info there is and that is Behrens created the system. peace --Tenteisai
We are not stupid - we already recognised you as the troll that you are. Why refer only to "the stuff at the beginning of the article"? Of course you can re-use what you wrote yourself, but you didn't write the entire article, and it was the entire article that you copied, not just "the stuff at the beginning". And all that talk about emailing you and testing who can post to your BB is a load of nonsense: it is not our responsibility to play detective to that extent, and anyway, as I have detailed previously, your suggested tests are not proof of what you claim. How many people practice this martial art anyway? --David from Downunder (talk) 12:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The number is unknown as the Senso Aikijutsu Dojo's don't keep in touch with each other, but the number is believed to be around 1500 at this point.--Tenteisai