Wikipedia talk:Selected anniversaries/December 8

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[edit] John Lennon

Prevously posted on WP:ERRORS:

(12/8) Not an error exactly, but I would have worded it 1980 - Former Beatle John Lennon was shot and killed outside of the Dakota apartments in New York City. Why give Chapman the publicity? Tvoz |talk 05:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with your point, but the re-write you suggested is in the passive voice. I suppose the preference here is to use the active voice. ~Sasha Callahan (Talk) 05:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Those positions aren't opposites - they could both be satisfied with a version like "...Lennon died of gunshots outside of..." or "...gunshots received outside of..." Art LaPella (talk) 06:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
True, I was only commenting on the suggestion given. How about "Former Beattle John Lennon dies of four gunshot wounds, including one to the heart, sustained outside the Dakota" ~Sasha Callahan (Talk) 06:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
That would be fine - I wasn't thinking about the active vs passive voice. Tvoz |talk 16:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Why give Chapman the publicity? He's had that since 2004...[1] Zzyzx11 (Talk) 06:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Surely that's not a good enough reason to continue it. Tvoz |talk 16:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Our concern here is presenting information. To withhold pertinent (and already widely-available) information because we don't like the guy is not exactly the encyclopedic thing to do. -Elmer Clark (talk) 20:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
It's not a matter of withholding information - it's a matter of how the item is slanted, what is the emphasis. The notable thing that happened on Dec 8 1980 is what happened to Lennon - and I think it should not have been framed in terms of Chapman's action, making him the centerpiece- it is about Lennon's death. Active voice is not the most important consideration anyway - but even with it there are ways of stating this without making it a piece of news about Chapman. Do we say On September 30, 1955, Donald Turnupseed crossed into the car lane that James Dean was driving in, and killed him? For all I know we do, and if so, I'd object there too. It's news about James Dean, even if we have to write it in passive voice, not news about Donald Turnupseed. Tvoz |talk 03:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much any sentence can be re-written into the active voice. For the example you gave "James Dean dies after a car crash on..." ~Sasha Callahan (Talk) 03:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Right, as you suggested above: Former Beatle John Lennon dies after four gunshot wounds, including one to the heart etc. My objection is to the construction Mark David Chapman does such and such. If he had shot and killed an anonymous person that day it would have made the news in New York, but it wouldn't be commemorated 27 years later, is my guess. The story is not about Chapman, it's about Lennon, and the item should be about Lennon, that's all. Can we note the archives so the same thing isn't perpetuated next year? Tvoz |talk 03:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
If Chapman didn't shoot, there would be no story. Both are important. Lennon is more important, though. Please leave things as is. --74.13.130.57 (talk) 05:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
My point exactly - Lennon is more important. I don't care if we include Chapman's name or not - this isn't about "don't speak the monster's name", it's merely putting the focus on the important person in the exchange, not somehow elevating Chapman into equal or greater importance in the event. We also wouldn't say Yoko Ono watches as her husband John Lennon is shot dead in front of her. If we must, put Chapman in at the end of the sentence - but the focus should be on Lennon - if he had been hit by a cab it wouldn't say Joe Cabdriver runs over John Lennon, killing him. Or it shouldn't. Tvoz |talk 18:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)