Talk:Self-referential humor

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I did clean up the grammar but after reading that... is it really self-referential humour? Methinks not... but I don't know what to suggest. MDCore 12:27, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Me also thinks not. The current stub seems to be describing in-jokes instead. I'll replace it with a different stub that's IMO correct and see what happens. Bryan 02:33, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Great Self-Referential Humor in the Self-Referential Humor Article Debate

To keep the example "Self-referential humor is further explained here" or not? I say, though it's a little too cute for an encyclopedia, what the hey, it's a good example. Keep it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamestown James (talk • contribs) 26 March 2007

Unfortunately it's not necessarily such a good example since Wikipedia articles aren't guaranteed to remain in a hyperlinked form. Print it out on paper and the line becomes "Self-referential humor is further explained here", which is kind of meaningless. I've never liked links of the form "see here" or "click this" for this reason. Also, update the Wikimedia software to make it slightly more sophisticated in detecting self-links or auto-tidy the article to remove the underscore and it becomes "Self-referential humor is further explained here". Bryan Derksen 01:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the meaning would be compromised if it was printed out, but wikipediais not a paper encyclopedia (also, here) and does not intend to be. Anyway, consider that the two links just mentioned in this paragraph would not make sense if this page was printed. (Obviously, there are countless examples of hypertext that doesn't display the exact location of the link.) As for the software issue, that isn't currently the case, and probably won't be the case ever. Jamestown James March 27
In your edit summary you mentioned how the example is merely a endless loop, but I feel that it qualifies. It's self-referential and humorous. I don't think we're disputing the funniness of the joke: It is indeed funny (Are we disputing?). How about this for a compromise: We take the Noises Off reference in the opening paragraph down to the list of examples, and the first paragraph could use the self-referential humor gag. The second sentence could go to the effect of, "An example of self-referential humor might be as follows: To learn more about self-referential humor, click here." Or something to that effect. Jamestown James 21:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Self referencial humour isn't a joke with a link to itself... That is a misdirection... not a reference. That's like one of those joke cards that says "to find the answer, turn over" on both sides... and you just keep turning it... that's not a self-referencing joke card... it's just an endless loop and a misdirection... There is no REFERENCE in the line provided. In the Simsons quote, the reference is to an aspect of the show that they have unreal hair and is mocking or critical of that. The Degrassi quote is a reference to the "issue of the week" aspect of the show. The wikilink has no reference... it's just... well, a lie... there is no further explaination - in fact, I think the wikilink is just a direct digital copy of those cards that you turn over... and I don't think those cards are referencing themselves. Just because the format is a website now doesn't make it any more referential. For humour to be referential, it must refer to some medium which has aspects that can be joked about - this almost always refers to some form of identifiable characteristic... books, tv, movies, magazines... if there was a joke at the expence of wikipedia based on some characteristic of wikipedia, that could qualify, but this was a generic link joke that I could put in my blog, or on any website... generally to be self-referential, the humour doesn't make sense if it's used on ANOTHER show/movie/etc. which doesn't share the characteristic of the original (the simpsons joke, for example, would only make sense on another cartoon with characters having unrealistic hair). TheHYPO 03:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
One quibble that may make a difference: there are quotes. "To learn more about self-referential humor, click here." vs just To learn more about self-referential humor, click here. (inline). The former is itself a quoted joke; the latter is more purely recursive. On your last point, this would NOT actually be funny if posted somewhere else (your blog, a website, etc); it is funny *because* it is posted in this article. Of course if you have some funnier SRH to propose for the SRH article, please do. ;-) --Sai Emrys 04:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
As the person who added it in the first place: keep, of course (or at this point, put it back). :-) Perhaps some other form of the same gag, but come on, an article on self-referential humor WITHOUT self-referential humor‽ For shame! (I am highly amused at the discussion though. :-)) --Sai Emrys 04:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Like I already said, the only thing that would make sense as self-referntial humour in a wiki article would be a joke that plays on some known quirk of wikipedia. Just having a link back to the same article isn't self-REFERENCING. It's simply self-linking or self-directing. Referencing means actually making some descriptive reference to itself. It would be like Shakespeare including a knowing joke about how annoying it is when people make up fake words, or someone on Lost making a comment about how annoying it is when TV shows are over dramatic and use crazy off-key strings to add tension. Those are references. The other issue is that self-referential humour is humour - as in jokes. Your example isn't a joke, it's a gag. TheHYPO 04:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've run into a policy that agrees with deleting the "gag": Wikipedia:Avoid self-references. And, you've made some points. Basically the problem is that the joke would fall apart if taken out of context, which is something to be avoided (see article). But, if one was to make a joke based on the idiosyncratic nature of wikipedia, the joke would still fall apart if read elsewhere (e.g. a blog or a mirror or something.) So, how about a reference to the nature of the article? Jamestown James 07:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
That was the policy, thank you - note the "think about print". the "wikipedia is not paper" policy isn't intended to imply that wikipedia shouldn't be printable - wikipedia is not paper policy is merely saying that wikipedia has no physical limits and needn't be confined as paper encyclopedias are. In the meantime, the self-ref policy notes that wiki articles should be printable - "and certainly don't use terms such as "click here"". Frankly, I don't see why we need to try to add a self-reference joke about the article itself. This is an encyclopedia article, not a sitcom script. Wikipedia needn't be "clever". TheHYPO 19:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Great, we agree on policy! Some headway! :-).
As for the Why Have A Self-Reference question, the examples provided (The Simpsons, Noises Off) are not universal. Using the nature of the article as a point of reference for the example of self-referential humor is universal, because one could assume that reader is reading the article.
If you feel we haven't settled this yet, I suggest we get a Third Opinion. Jamestown James 03:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that Wikipedia:Avoid self-references is relevant here. First, it's clearly a stylistic guideline, i.e. don't tell people what you're going to tell them and where, just tell 'em. Second, the joke is not a self-reference to Wikipedia, but to the article itself. Third, an article about self-reference should I think be exempt from a general guideline against self-reference. IMHO a joke is justifiable in the grand tradition of hackish definitions and examples being self-referential or self-exemplifying. I certainly don't mind changing the form of it - e.g. changing 'click here' to something like 'see self-referntial humor' - but surely an article about SRH can contain some actual SRH and not just quoted other-context SRH? I don't think SRH referencing Wikipedia would be all that funny or appropriate here; but I'm fine with anything that plays upon the article itself in some way. --Sai Emrys 22:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This ignores the basic point that what you want to add is not self-referencial humour... as I said, a card that says "how do you keep an idiot busy - turn over for the answer" on both sides, is not a self-referencing joke... it's just a never-ending gag. And that's identical to what you have here. Self-referencing wikipedia humour would have to REFERENCE some aspect of wikipedia - for example (not that I in any way suggest using this): "This article is somewhat vague. If only there were a way for people who read this article to improve it..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheHYPO (talk • contribs) 04:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
That's perfect! Lets do it. Jamestown James 03:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out above "Self-referential humor is further explained here" is totally unacceptable because it's not an example of self-referential humor. --JayHenry 02:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion Summary: no.

  • Not an example of self-referential humour, because it is not funny.
  • While wiki is not paper, links in this style shouldn't be done.
  • There are other examples in the article.
  • If something funny and self-referential can be found, include it. There is not enough humour on Wikipedia, and an easter egg or two like this can't hurt.

--User:Krator (t c) 09:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link

I think that I should suggest that someone add in a reference to http://xkcd.com/33/ (a short comic strip about self-referential humor). 204.152.235.217 20:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

If we linked and or mentioned every mention or example of the phrase self-referencial humour in media, this article would be bloated and annoying. TheHYPO 21:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
But there's no references! We need some... Maybe we can reference this article. Get it? --Phred Levi (talk) 12:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)