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Contents 1 '04 comments 2 Online communities 3 Improvement drive 4 Commercial content 5 Objective autoritative content 6 Links 7 Merge 8 Vandalism 9 Broadening seduction 10 I have 11 womanizer ; seduction 11.1 Seduction (abuse) of children

[edit] '04 comments

This article should reflect both male and female strategies. Since both men and women can use seduction it's a good idea to ensure the article has useful information for both.

-Anonymous suggests How To Succeed With Men be linked to for women.

I suggested not, it is just a page of commercial links not even related to the website's name. 16:14, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

-Suggest resource that is Gay/Bisexual/Lesbian friendly re: seduction. Fastseduction.com, which is linked to at the bottom of this disucssion, has forums with very few positive posts in this area.

I tried to remove some of the judgemental aspects of seduction, and keep a neutral point of view. Seduction can be a bit of a hornets nest since it involves certain manipulative tactics that some people view as wrong. Terminology like "victim" has a lot of implications that imply some element of wrongdoing. Since seduction and the use of force are really diametrically opposed, I felt the mention of the Zeus myth of the Rape of Leda and the Swan did not accurately belong in a seduction article.

Unfortunately, "victim" is often a crucial element of seduction. Seduction, as is noted in the current page, involves going beyond societal norms (which, for example, may require love as a prerequisite for intimacy). By playing the "victim" role, the target may preserve an illusion of proper behavior in his/her mind, while still getting to act out the actions he/she desires.

This behavior may not be the most healthy, but it is extraordinarily common, and treating it in a balanced way is difficult but not impossible.

I thought that there were many more historical figures that should be referenced as examples of people using seduction accomplishing what they want in life. Thus, the addition of Cleopatra and Benjamin Disraeli and Rasputin.

Without becoming a How To manual, I thought the article should at least discuss additional resources in the study of seduction.

Looking at the history logs, I think that linking to seduction resources has been a contentious item. (They get added, they get removed, they get added, they get removed...) I think that there can be a balance between a host of commercial links (definitely to be avoided) and no references at all (give us more information please!!) I tried to have links for both male and female resources, and I hope it can improved further without the article becoming a tool in someone's marketing plan.

--TW. Nov 1. 2004 aka yum!

P.S. If I had more time, I'd like to add more about Flirting, Beauty, Status Symbols, Success Symbols, the mating game, human sexuality, etc etc.

[edit] Online communities

Various online communities devoted to the seduction strategies used by men have recently emerged. Two of the largest provide reviews and discussions and tactics and techniques related to various seduction methods. Another site currently compiles a growing list of local seduction communities, known as "lairs" in which these techniques are actively practiced.

Very important non-commercial sources which point to the online seduction communities. As long as these pointers remain, it is possible fir people to drill down and uncover a lot more information. These sites are considered objective and non-commercial sources by the men's seduction community.

Removed spam from others.

Hey watch the slander above. Some of the aforementioned Did NOT attack the page.

[edit] Improvement drive

Flirting is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you are interested!--Fenice 20:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial content

To me, an addition such as this: -

Notable Seduction Strategies in the United States Magazines such as Cosmopolitan Magazine and books such as The Rules have gained notoriety as resources for seduction strategies used by women. Various online communities devoted to the seduction strategies used by men have recently emerged. Two of the largest provide reviews and discussions and tactics and techniques related to various seduction methods. Another site currently compiles a growing list of local seduction communities, known as "lairs" in which these techniques are actively practiced on a local or an international scale.

In the United States at present there is a large phenomenon of people giving seminars about how to seduce women. Major leaders in this genre include David DeAngelo, Mystery, and Ross Jeffries, and followers describe themselves as "the community". Much of the impetus and early theories of this movement appear to have evolved from the neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) movement. The two movements are similar in their focus on seminars and direct instruction, and both have garnered criticism for this.

is commercial and promotional - Wikipedia is not a link farm.

Previous similar edits to this article included content such as

There are also many commercial seduction products available for men. Recommended ones are Mystery Video Archive, All About Women by Giuseppe Notte, Seduction Report, Double Your Dating by David DeAngelo and Ranko Magami's Audio CD.

http://www.seductionreport.com

There needs to be more consensus on this addition like these before it would be acceptable - and I strongly believe they are not. It is worth noting that on previous occasions, these edits have been reverted by others [1] [2] [3] --PhilipO 03:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

>>>>>>>>>>>>> PhilipO, links given here are among the most independent sites available and relatively neutral information sources on this subject, probably the most neutral available. If you have other suggestions, please give them, rather than simply continuously deleting the entry.

There shouldn't be any of these links. The article is fine as it is. --PhilipO 04:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The following entry contains neutral and indepent references, and is not intended to be promotional:

Various online communities devoted to the seduction strategies used by men have recently emerged. Two of the largest provide reviews and discussions and tactics and techniques related to various seduction methods. Another site currently compiles a growing list of local seduction communities, known as "lairs" in which these techniques are actively practiced on a local or an international scale

The other references to Mystery, DeAngelo, Rando Magemi, etc. are commercial and should be considered spam.

Constructive additions to the page should not be deleted without comment. The entry above regarding online communities contains substantial information and is not intended to be promotional or commercial in any way. This entry should be given a place. Please suggest alternative links that are less commercial or a better place for this entry on Wikipedia rather than deleting actual content!

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of knowledge. The consensus in the Wikipedia community is that this article does not warrant the inclusion of this information. If the community reached a consensus that it does, that would be fine with me. Multiple editors are reverting this addition.

The only link in this addition which is acceptable, IMHO, is the NYTimes link. Your edits continually add these sites which are questionable and arguably promotional. --PhilipO 05:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, edits such as this and this create the impression that these edits are being intentionally placed to direct traffic to Seduction Community. I don't believe there is any mention in Wedding Crashers of this particular topic. --PhilipO 05:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Objective autoritative content

PhilipO, good that there is finally an intelligent discussion on this subject. All links except for the NYTimes link have been removed as per your request. Although that makes it impossible for the reader to actually find a reference to the communities mentioned, but perhaps that can be redressed on the "Seduction Community" page if that article is allowed to remain?

I believe multiple editors have put this content back into the page. If the majority believes that this information would be better organized in another way or on an additional page or pages, make the constructive suggestion and please avoid -- indiscriminate -- deletion. The articles which you (PhilipO) have authored are about Roches department stores, a video game and a fantasy role playing game -- and these are not considered indiscriminate or promotional content? Perhaps it's the way the information is organized or presented that needs improvement? Please make suggestions, so we can improve the site!

The film Wedding Crashers makes references to the community in question. Did you see the film? Perhaps you missed them. For example, they freely use terms like "cockblock" and "wing" which originated in the seduction community discussed in Neil Strauss' book and on the Internet sites mentioned. The other two films Hitch and Magnolia are also directly related to the community in question, and may be of interest to those who see those films. So why not link to them?

This particular author has no intention of directing traffic to any web site or web page in particular. (I didn't create the Seduction Community page, but when I discovered it, I removed the blatant commercial references and errors, and then rewrote and improved the page.) If you have a better suggestion about how the information can be presented, please say so. Any links you find objectionable can be removed, but you do need to help us find alternative ones if they do serve an informational purpose to the reader.

OK - the links to the commercial sites have been removed. I appreciate the act of good faith - you are quite correct that this topic is wide open to abuse. The related article Seduction Community is still littered with links, and I don't believe that article will remain with them in place.

The issue I have with the edit in question in Seduction is that it is simply saying this "If you want to know how to hit on women, there are plenty of sites on the 'net that purport to tell you how to do it." I really feel this is of questionable value - the same could be said about more or less anything. However, if a consensus is reached that the edit stays, that's fine with me. I will not be reverting it any further as it stands. Cheers. --PhilipO 06:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

>>>>>>>>>>>PhilipO, okay, but you are avoiding the real issue. The article is about "seduction" and seducing women falls under this topic. There should be some links allowable as evidence of this growing trend. Whether or not the sites "purport" to tell you how to do it or actually do describe tactics actually used by a growing international male population is something you can actually verify and investigate. There are substantial media references, including the book published by HarperCollins in 2005.

What trend? The trend that there are communites of the web dedicated to men seducing women? There are communites about everything on the 'net. They don't necessarily deserve mention in Wikipedia. My comment stands on its own. Those links do not belong in this article - Wikipedia is not a link farm. However, as always, the community's view takes precedence and I think it is with the removal of those links. --PhilipO 07:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

>>>> These communities are very large and have been expanding rapidly worldwide, as has been documented by major national and international media. The book THE GAME is currently number 15 on the NYTimes Bestseller list. I noticed there are other pages related to "dating do's and don'ts" and "Nice Guy Syndrome." I believe there are many similar and interrelated Wikipedia articles. I don't have any interest in having a deletion war with the author of an article about a famous video game (PhilipO).

I believe this particular subject is of more social value than articles on an Irish department store, an obsolete video game and a variant of Dungeons & Dragons role playing (all written by PhiipO), but that's just me... I give up.

Since this discussion occoured, the article on the refrenced and contraversial seduction community was deleted, but there are two articles about somewhat notable gurus in the community which were allowed to stand. This makes no sense to me, but I guess reflects some consensus that this information is notable.

[edit] Links

What's wrong with providing links to the major seduction sites, and mentioning the movies where the entire subject is hitting on women? This page is meant to provide an encyclopedic level of information on the subject it's named for. How could the entire community of people who practice this as a sport and artform not fall under that heading? To provide comparison, Parkour, Soccer and Painting all provide at least a few links to websites with important information related to parkour (such as the websites of the people who founded it, and the biggest online communities), soccer, and painting respectively. BTW, I get the impression that PillipO, and presumably others, don't believe the seduction sites know what they're doing in the first place, and so don't belong here. Is that (their effectiveness, not whether you believe in it) true, or false? Black Carrot 03:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and could y'all please sign&date your posts? Some of you don't, and it's inconvenient to have to go to the page history to see how long ago they were. Black Carrot 03:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Not that they are supposed to tbe the same thing, both articles seem to duplicate a lot of content. Merge (or fix) - Jack (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Do not merge. How long shall the suggestion be up for debate? No-one has voiced their support and the tags has been up for more than a month. I motion that we now conclude that there will be no merger and remove the tags. Dubidub 20:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This article is repeatedly target to vandalism. At what point should it be locked (if that would even help) and does anyone know where that policy is covered? Andrewski 16:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broadening seduction

Seduction is a very complicated term and often subject to the same simplistic views. That's why I wholeheartedly agree with your decision to delete the commercial references and the mention of The Rules. There are lots of areas missing from the current statement: for example: seduction in psychoanalysis, in narrative (both film and literature), and, specially, in visual terms, which is my area of research. It is quite a hot topic at the moment, with the development of a new field called Captology (the study of how technology persuades and seduces). I would like to have a go (whenever time allows!) at tackling some of its philsophical implications and, for that reason, wouldn't like to see this article merged. Laura 16:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I have

had far less education than many of you; however, I do frequently feel as though many people do employ complicated far too often, complex, far too little. &, it is my impression that "complex" is less complex than "complicated".

I am sorry if I've excessively "complexed" the issue, or if I have too much of an "emotional complicated". I have, on several occasions, resided in "apartment complicateds". Obviously, I do have many complex complicated complications, & complicated complexes on computer communication computations {& captology [< http://captology.stanford.edu >]?}. My brain does get stuck.

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 22:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] womanizer ; seduction

Something should be done about the sexism of "womanize" & "womanizer".

A man {&/or a woman, &/or a[n] hermaphrodite} might seduce a woman, or multiple women, or another man, multiple men, hermaphrodite[s]. There might be multiple persons simultaneously seducing, &/or being seduced.

Therefore, what word, term, phrase, might "womanize" evolve into? That question is, certainly, directed @ those readers who believe in evolution.

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 22:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seduction (abuse) of children

There is an interesting book, written by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson The Assault on Truth: Freud's Suppression of the Seduction Theory (1984) ISBN 0-374-10642-8 .

Austerlitz 88.72.0.86 03:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)