Talk:Security Service of Ukraine

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Are the following conventional translations? My Ukrainian's not the best, but "управління" sounds like a "directorate" or "administration" to me. "Guard" could be confused with "Ґвардія", so maybe "Protection" is better?

  • Головне управління розвідки: Central Intelligence Department (Ukrainian government website calls it "The Main Agency of secret service")
  • Управління державної охорони: State Guard Department

—Michael Z.

Hi Michael. Interesting questions you ask... You know, Ukrainian military (as well as the bureaucracy as a whole) is tremendously untransparent. They don't really need to translate their staff in English properly - cause they don't care of the readers' reaction. As a rule, English in governmental institutions is terribly poor. So I doubt we should look for any convention there. BTW, there is no conventional Ukrainian translation for many important Russian terms. I guess we can use two strategies:
  • see how qualified translators (namely foreigners) do it. E.g., in Englsh-language newspapers published in Kyiv;
  • look for similar institutions in the English-speaking world and make our own convention. I delieve WP article is one of the most popular sources of English articles about SBU :)
Logically, UDO and HUR may not be considered "agencies" or "administrations" since they're not independent bodies, but departments of SBU and MO respectively (actually, every executive body in Ukraine is divided into '(Holovne)Upravlinnya's . As for UDO fucntion, I'm not sure. You see, they're not just bodyguards - they guard houses and territories, check documents on the entrances etc. What do you think?
I'll study the question in available sources. PryvitAlexPU
A quick Google search shows that the KGB ninth directorate is referred to as "guard" or "guards". Might as well stick to convention. How do you feel about "directorate" for "управління"? —Michael Z. 17:49, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Move to Security Service of Ukraine

The correct way to move a page is to use the "move" button at the top. By pasting the text of the article over there, you've lost its history. Also, now that there's a page there instead of just a redirect, the move button will no longer work. You must post a request on Wikipedia:Requested moves. —Michael Z. 23:01, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

"Move" ? All I have is "article", "discusstion", "edit this page", and "history"... --68.39.174.205 08:49, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If you were a logged in, registered user, you would have a "move" tab. Anonymous users are not allowed to move articles. Please register and log in. - UtherSRG 13:33, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

If this page is moved to a translation, should it be Security Service of Ukraine, or Ukrainian Security Service? The former is more literal, but the latter is more concise, and starts with "U". Anyway, this is moot unless someone requests the move. —Michael Z. 23:06, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

I'm going with "Security Service of Ukraine" as that's how the English version of the SBUs site has it. --68.39.174.205 08:49, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny → Security Service of Ukraine

  • Support Current article is a transliteration of the Ukrainian. These often change when new systems for interpretation arise. Also, if someone wanted information on this organization, is it likely they'd think to "Go" to the pronounciation of the name? As to the accuracy of the translation, it comes from the English version of their site.
  • Oppose. Transliteration schemes are pretty stable; the commonly-used BGN transliteration used for this name dates from 1965 (see Romanization of Ukrainian). Jumping to the article isn't a problem, thanks to redirects. —Michael Z. 19:32, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)
Searching for "Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny" returns, amongst other things, an offered correction of "Sluzhba Bezpeka Ukrayiny, so it seems that transliterations, or at least this one, are shaky even when "pretty stable".
That's a mistake made by the Google database and has nothing to do with Ukrainian grammar. The Security has to be in dative case (literally "Service of Security of Ukraine"), while "Bezpeka" would indicate nominative. This is perhaps hard to follow for someone who doesn't speak Slavic, but the version proposed by Google is indeed a mistake. Halibutt
Google is not correcting the phrase, it's merely offering to search for an isolated word that appears in 24,000 web sites in preference to one that appears in about 1,000, in case the rarer word is a spelling mistake. "Sluzhba Bezpeka Ukrayiny" simply doesn't make sense. Google is not saying that the original search is incorrect. Folks are really going way beyond a reasonable interpretation of Google responses. —Michael Z. 21:49, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
I don't know if you noticed, but their web site uses 'Sluzhba Bespeky Ukrayiny', not 'Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny' — the title of the article is wrong in any case. —Mike 10:17, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. A Google search for Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny returns a Wikipedia redirect as its first result, and also asks “Did you mean?” I can see no reason not to follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Susvolans (pigs can fly) 10:08, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There's no English convention for naming of this agency since it is heavily untransparent and relatively new. We're making a convention now and here, boys and girls. In this case, WP is not a kind of "mirror" for SBU-related WEb info, but a very important source of it (since there's no much other sources). So why don't we follow the most spread Ukrainian/Russian abbreviation SBU and original full name? E.g., nobody is translating Mossad or Abver. AlexPU 10:50, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
    Indeed they do translate Mossad and Abwehr, both of these being the agencies' common English-language shorthands in the first place. Wikipedia has no fixed convention for the naming of foreign intelligence services, defaulting instead to "use common English names"; thus we have the General Intelligence Directorate and the Ministry of State Security, in addition to the two you just named, but also Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa and Komitet Gosudarstvennoi Bezopasnosti. In this case, the SBU calls itself by an English name, and I see no reason not to use it. Support. ADH (t&m) 19:50, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
    You mention that on this topic Wikipedia is a very important "source" for SBU-related web info, and not a "mirror". This is a problem: remember that on WP any information needs to be verifiable and not original research. — Matt Crypto 13:34, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • To clarify what ADH said: the SBU only calls itself by an English name when it is using English on a subpage. The main page uses a Ukrainian name, of course. — Ford 03:13, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)
  • Oppose - well said, Alex. Halibutt 17:09, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Philip Baird Shearer 18:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. The title of the article should be in English, not a transliterated Ukrainian. —Mike 10:17, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Ditto. Native language makes sense only in short and widely accepted for English speakers names. BTW, we have KGB, not Komitet. Mikkalai 02:02, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. This is an English language encyclopedia. Transliterated or not, the Ukrainian name just looks like gobbledygook to an English-speaker. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 04:51, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Modifications

In an attempt to improve this page I have:

  • added a link to the country Ukraine in the first sentence. I couldn't find one single link to the country in the whole article!
  • removed the out-of-date reference to the redirection of SBU, which is no longer the case. SBU now has its own disambiguation page (not my creation).
  • added an English equivalent for Verkhovna Rada. The way it was done was suspiciously like an individual's name for those not familiar to Ukraine's terminology for it's government.

Spiggot 21:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SBU (Ukranian Security Service)

According to the Dutch page [nl:Kernramp van Tsjernobyl] ([en:Chernobyl disaster]), the SBU also has a responsibility to guard the Chernobyl power plant's remains: "Nowadays, trips to Chernobyl are organised to see this beautiful nature, during which one can also visit the power plant itself. However, the nuclear powerplant is being guarded these days by the SBU (Ukranian secret service), which checks/controls trips to the area."

Can this be verified and, if found valid, be added to the page? Eddyspeeder 20:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)