Talk:Secularism in Turkey

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Contents

[edit] Comments

[edit] Introduction

From the last sentence of the introduction: "...actively monitors the area between the religions." I don't fully understand what this means; it may need to be rephrased. Is it alluding to the government taking a neutral stance on religion, or the government actively promoting religious tolerance? EyeSereneTALK 17:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not Neutral Point of View

Despite the fact that sources are cited throughout, several sections of this article seem to reflect a bias against Turkey and need to be cleaned up to meet Wikipedia's standards for NPOV, such as the following passage:

"...Therefore by being a secular republic, Turkey is a poor representation of a democracy due to the fact it harasses people who pratice religion in public while it is evident in the West that many people practice religion openly without facing discrimination a law upheld by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights as "legitimate" on November 10, 2005 in Leyla Şahin v. Turkey.

^^ Leyla Sahin lost that case, as freedom has limit of individual area and religions has a tendency of expansionism, this article above does not represent the court decision also France has won a similar case against a Muslim woman. This article must be removed immediately due to misleading people by playing words

The strict application of secularism in Turkey has basically led to oppresion and has made for many individuals in Turkey a huge obstacle of expressing freedom, values, social life, and way of thinking#PPA28,M1 }}</ref>"

Therefore I am going to put the disputed-neutrality template on its page. —Edward Tremel 00:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

O.K. The article is based on cited information. The available concepts are distributed to their correct places. The concept is very popular and biased edits are expected. That is the nature of the Article. From my perspective the article has problems but not really bad. Any other recommendations?? --OttomanReference 16:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
it was an anon who declared Turkey as an Islamic state, his/her edit was reverted immediately. see this diff. DenizTC 03:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secular Paradox

While its almost indisputable that Turkey is more secular than many of the countries neighbouring it how can they claim to be a completly secular republic when.

  • The 'Islamic crescent' comes from Turkey/Ottoman Empire
  • Which in turn used an Islamic symbol, to underscore its claim to the caliphate. Interestingly, religion was one of the ways by which Turks were *defined* during Republican-era conflicts with Greece and Greeks.
read more about Turkish flag, you will see it was long before used in anatolia, it really was the symbol adopted after Kosovo battle as state symbol of Ottomans, 5 point star is hand of Ida ottomans used a sun(like azeri flag), this article shall be removed instantly cos it doesnt represent truth.
  • 2) The Government funds the construction of Mosques
  • They are donation based as far as I know. In Turkey every now and then you can find someone on your door who asks whether you want to donate money to a mosque construction
  • Their preachers receive government salaries
Also funds churches and synagogues by power and water (yes this is not laicite i dont use anyof them but i pay)
  • 3) There is (Islamic) religious education in state funded schools
  • This one is in a way true, there is a course called 'Din Kültürü ve Ahlak Bilgisi' (direct translation: "Culture of Religion and knowledge of Ethics")
  • The teachers are invariably these same government-subsidized Sunni preachers. A common Alevi complaint is that (a) these teachers use the opportunity to proselytize, and belittle Alevi beliefs, and (b) Alevi children (unlike those of recognized religious minorities) cannot be excused from the class.
This education is totally against laicite and caused ilamist to gain influence on society must be removed, because of that lesson my graduation point was reduced in high school which effected my university success.
  • 4) There is a Government "Department of Religion"
  • Ministry for Religious Affairs, which on paper oversees the area between the religions, but in practice it is like a Department of religion, maybe since almost everyone in Turkey is at least nominally Moslem. It is not a state church
  • Most Turks are at least nominally Muslim, but many are non-Sunni (i.e., Alevi), while others disapprove of the state-supported mosque system. The only thing that distinguishes this system from a "state church" per se would be the Turkish government's insistence that there is no state religion.
  • In Denmark, England, Germany etc most churches are paid for by the state. In Italy, the law confers many fiscal privileges to the Catholic Church instead of directly paying for churches.
there is nothing called ministry or secretary of religious affairs, it can be translated chiefhood of religious affairs as it is not political, works similar to churches in Turkey (which are subjected to their local government office, Greek Orthodox church is to İstanbul Valiliği).
  • 5) Until recently Adultery was a crime (and there have been proposals for recriminalising it)
  • No it wasn't, but there was a discussion initiated by some politicians
  • There used to be laws against hotels renting rooms to unmarried (or unrelated) Turkish couples.
  • So? Until 20 years ago it was legal for a Spanish man to shoot and kill his wife and her lover if he caught them in bed. One needs to only visit southern Turkey to see if that law about hotel rooms still applies :)
laws do not permit or prohibit actions, they represent reactions, if someone kills for any reason he/she will suffer the consequences. Insult has a reducing effect on punishment all over the world.
  • 6) Identity cards state the bearers religion (surely in a truly secular state a persons religious beliefs would be of no more interest to the agencies of the state than their favorite footbal team)
  • Correct.
  • True, however it is NOT obligatory to have such a mention on ID cards. The law was changed a while back. In any case, you are right that there should be no such mention. But remember that in EU member Greece ID cards still have the mention of religion. This was used back in the day, in TR and GR for example, to make sure that someone wouldn't be a "threat to national security" by making sure that they were "true" X's or Y's. Remnants of the Cold War, what can I say?
Thats true in any period of my life i haven't been a muslim but my ID dictates that i am. but at least i dont have to carry any religious symbols like many EU citizens has to due to their flags.
  • 7) There are widespread allegations of (past and present) persecution of and discrimination against religious minorities
  • unfortunately, but not related, the laicite of the Turkish government does not imply that no teen will be a murderer
  • In the Sivas massacre, the police were credibly accused of "looking the other way" while Sunni mobs attacked Alevis. Similar events happened in Istanbul.
  • It was a horrible and condemnable incident. However it was nearly twenty years ago. The Sunni-Alevi tension no longer exists in Turkey, and that event was one of the last events in those dying tensions.
that was not a sunni-alevi event, it was totally against Aziz Nesin who in fact was a non-believer, he was crticizing not only islam also alevism. The heads of the mob were sentenced.

80.229.222.48 20:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

  • DenizTC 00:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

--Side Comment to number 6: Germany, an undisputed secular democracy, requires citizens to state their chosen religion as part of tax forms since tithing is done by the state. Germany also requires State recognition of religious sects.

I would have thought the Germans of all people would know why letting the Government know your religious affiliation might not be such a good idea but we are discussing Turkey here not Germany (or Spain or Denmark or "England" or Italy....). 80.229.222.48 21:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This "Flag issue" must be removed immediately, Turkish Flag does not have any religious symbols read about it on Wikipedia, you can also check Gagauz flag who are Eastern Christians. A coin in found Cyprus dated back to Hellenistic Era has also same (5 point star) symbol and that doesnt make them muslims or does it?

[edit] Public Reason

I see the reference to "public reason" was added to the lead; I'm not sure that's appropriately used in reference to Turkey. The phrase has some currency, but is somewhat central to John Rawls, at least to my understanding (meaning I doubt it has much influence on Turkish politics). I would rephrase that unless someone disagrees. Mackan79 14:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ateistforum

I think that the blocking of Ateistforum (Turkish atheistic internet-forum) should be mentioned. Abdullais4u (talk) 15:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secularim or Laicite?

they are different concepts for same problem secularism does not provide shelter for non-religious people(as in Germany they are obligated to pay church tax) where in laic countries religious symbols are not permitted , by this sense laicite is better deveplopped than secularity but the criteria of religious freedom in secular countries may be better for majority of believers

[edit] State control

According to a report I heard on the BBC, the state appoints all the imams & writes their sermons, faxing them through to the mosques. If this is true, it's a very important fact that ought to be mentioned in the article, since it means that Turkey's concept of secularism is totally different from those of France & America, say. Peter jackson (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı 70.171.33.155 (talk) 17:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)