Talk:Secret Intelligence Service

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[edit] Butler of Brockwell's Review

According to the findings of Lord Butler of Brockwell's Review of Weapons of Mass Destruction, the reduction of operational capabilities in the Middle East and the weakening of the Requirements division's ability to challenge the quality of the information the Middle East Controllerate was providing the Joint Intelligence Committee's estimates of Iraq's nonconventional weapons programmes.

This sentence, due in part to an excess of participial phrases functioning in various capacities, supplemented by infinitives fulfilling various roles, in conjunction with a relative clause whose relative pronoun is elided, leading to an inability to communicate clearly the actual statement from said report. Can someone please introduce a declarative verb? I have no idea what it's trying to say.

Neal has a tumor

[edit] MI6 not SIS

(Consolidated thread)

When is it MI6 and when is it SIS. I think the public hardly ever call it SIS most people refer to it as MI6?

Well, according to the general public (I straw polled 4 people, unaninmous result), it's MI6, known colloqually as MI6. According to the article as written, it's called MI6, known colloquially as MI6. Accodring to Hannsard, it's MI6, known as MI6. According to the press, it's MI6, known as MI6.

So... I think that the title it misleading, and that the article is best held under the heading of MI6. Plus, as it stands, there are bits of the article that hold no value - "'Quex' Sinclair died in 1939 and was replaced as "C" by Lt. Col. Stewart Menzies. Menzies was another run-of-the-mill chief; by common opinion, SIS did not have a head of Cummings' calibre until Dick White, in the post-war era." In the absence of a timeline of the had officers, this has little merit. It's bland assertion of the calibre of the head is out of place (that's a blatent show of POV). It's comment about 'passport-control officers' I find to be unveryfiable. And there are a few more problems too, along the same lines. Syntax 03:45, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's the SIS. It's been the SIS for a while. No documents coming out from it (except PR nonsense) use the term 'MI6', which is a WWI hangover that's propped up by the internal force still using MI5, instead of another name; we don't call GCHQ 'SIGINT' or MI17, do we?
To put it bluntly, the 'man in the street' is wrong.
James F. (talk) 04:33, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
So 'SIS' is a secret internal name that virtually no-one outside MI6 knows about, which naturally is a big attraction for Wikipedia anal-retentives to choose bad titles.
The BBC refers to it as SIS normally (though they note that it is 'commonly known as MI6'...)
Evidently no-one has ever heard of such an institution, though...
James F. (talk) 20:18, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
Whilst I agree that it's much better known as MI6, given the redirect is there, what does it matter? OwenBlacker 23:42, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, given the MI5 article is at its common name, I've changed my mind. I think this should be moved to MI6. Any objections? — OwenBlacker 02:15, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

the article should be renamed to MI6 since it is known to more people and widely used If you asked a person what SIS was they wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about now if you asked them what MI6 was they would more likely know becuse they heard it in media or James Bond Dudtz 7/21/05 5:42 PM EST

Agreed, the Security Service is under its old but better known name of MI5 so I don't see why the Secret Intelligence Service shouldn't be under MI6. Silveralex 18:17, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The organisation should be known by its official name (since 1922). Other public institutions are labelled correctly (eg. "BBC" not "beeb", Palace of Westminster not "Big Ben"), this should be no different. Encyclopedias should be accurate - the redirect is sufficient. Wiki-Ed 15:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
If thats the case then shouldn't the Security Service be used instead of MI5 on its page? Silveralex 01:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Yep if we're being consistent. However, I fear making changes might ignite an unwelcome debate - so I am inclined to let sleeping dogs lie. :) Wiki-Ed 10:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Just to add an official "last word" on this, here's what the Secret Intelligence Service's official website says about its name - SIS OR MI6. WHAT'S IN A NAME?. Basically, it went by several different names after its inception in 1909, including "Foreign Intelligence Service", "Secret Service", "MI1(c)", "Special Intelligence Service" and "C's Organisation" (the original head and his successors are all called "C"). But by 1920, the name "Secret Intelligence Service" became the most common name, even before the term MI6 had been invented. The name SIS was given an official status in a law passed in 1994, so SIS definitely is the only official name for the organisation. I suspect it took this long to be made the official name mainly because until very recently the government denied that SIS even existed, so it was impossible to lay down any details about it in public. MI6 was briefly an unofficial name used during the Second World War, when different intelligence departments were all referred to as MI-something, because they were all meant to be departments of the Military (MI = Military Intelligence). They're not a department of the Military though, they're actually part of the Foreign Office, not the Ministry Of Defence. This is why the name is so important to some people, because SIS had a long struggle to break itself free of the military so it didn't want a name that implied it was part of something that it wasn't. MI5 is similarly inaccurate, the Security Service is part of the Home Office, NOT the MOD. Neither of the organisations are Military, so the names MI5 and MI6 are simply wrong even if they're commonly used by outsiders, just as Sydney isn't the capital of Australia even though most outsiders think it is.

But normal policy on Wikipedia is to use the common name, which is most definitely MI6 (how many people have heard of the SIS?). The BBC example quoted above is apposite, although not in the way the poster intended it to be: the article is entitled BBC (its common name), not "British Broadcasting Corporation" (its official name). -- Necrothesp 13:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's purpose is to educate and inform. Just because people perceive something incorrectly does not mean that we should reinforce the misconception. I should add that the Security Service is not part of the Home Office, and SIS is not part of the FCO, although they do report to the same ministers. Wiki-Ed 13:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
All you have to do is read the article to be informed! -- Necrothesp 16:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Do we need three pictures of the same building?

I'd say so, they're great pics --PopUpPirate 13:06, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

MI6? DI6 = more accurate. But the name is SIS and it's Special not Secret.

DI6? What's that supposed to mean? The only time I've seen that before was in some poorly researched Clancy book. And the first 'S' is for "secret". Wiki-Ed 15:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I have seen DI6 mentioned before ( sorry no source ). As i understand it was a beauocratic title never used by anyone. 82.212.19.84 16:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, the official site of the Secret Intelligence Service is http://www.mi6.gov.uk And it's articles noted that MI6 'fell into official disuse' - i.e. it was used officially. --203.118.157.221 11:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to add to an old debate: Britannica has its articles under the headings 'MI5' and 'MI6' (with formally followed by the offial name opening the article). Tobyox (talk) 06:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] James Bond

Where does that "James Bond working for MI6 is a myth" come from? As far as I am aware, Bond was indeed working for MI6 in the novels and not the NID - his rank was Commander, yes, but that was his official naval rank and cover. --khaosworks 18:14, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In Dr. No M refers to MI7 (apparently this is an overdub, and lip reading shows that the original line is "MI6"). Otherwise I don't think MI6 is ever explicitly mentioned. Timrollpickering 01:50, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
In the Pierce Brosnan era (which are all original sreenplays, I believe, not adaptations of Flemming's stories) open reference is made to MI6. Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 11:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Her Majesty's Secret Service

The notion that the Secret Service was ever known as "Her Majesty's Secret Service" is actually something of an urban myth, brought about by the popularity of the novel and film On Her Majesty's Secret Service. However, Fleming intended the title as a play on words based on the old term "On Her Majesty's Service", represented as O.H.M.S. on envelopes containing tax documents and other mundane official communications. It's become apparent to me that this isn't widely known outside the UK! I've fixed the article to reflect this jamesgibbon 12:21, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Has a remit"

The second sentence of this article baffled me. I (an American) have a degree in English from Harvard, have written many books, love the English language (and particularly British thrillers and spy stories), and had never encountered the word "remit" before in this sense. I've just tried googling "has a remit" and "have a remit" and found about 10,000 instances of each phrase. I would say, without examining all 20,000 cases, that they are all from British contexts. I think most educated Americans are aware that our English cousins say "lift" for "elevator", "boot" for "trunk", "lorry" for "truck", etc. etc. But I think that they would be baffled by "MI6 has a remit to..." although they could probably figure out the sense from the context. Could someone here take pity on their transAtlantic cousins and find another way of phrasing this? "has the authority", perhaps? "is chartered to"? "Is legislated to"? Or something of the sort.... Hayford Peirce 7 July 2005 00:21 (UTC)

"remit" being the root of "remitance" is perfectly logical. Nobs01 7 July 2005 00:47 (UTC)
Remit is commonly used here (especially within government) and is a far more flexible way of saying "has responsibility for". Part of your love of English should surely be in the finding out about words you've never heard of before? No-one can know them all :) Wiki-Ed 15:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts

Clem, you made a lot of deletions in your "revert vandal" edit. I noticed there were a few good changes in there, but these were heavily outnumbered by the bad ones and the mass deletions of correct information (so I've reverted back). Grateful if you could be more careful - your own edit looked more like vandalism than whatever it was you thought you were correcting. Wiki-Ed 10:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] FAC

Anyone got the will or the way to tweak this article so it could be a Featured Article one day? I'd be willing to do what I could. --PopUpPirate 23:14, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move article ?

The title is misleading. I came here looking for a general description of secret intelligence services, and instead found a description of one in particular. The content of this article should be moved to one titled "MI6", and in it's place should be a general description of secret intelligence services, with links, including MI6, the CIA, Mossad, the KGB (and it's newer incarnation), etc. StuRat 20:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

No. The title is not misleading: "Secret Intelligence Service" (NB singular) is the name of the organisation. MI6 is an inaccurate anachronistic colloquial term. If you were looking for a general description of "Central Intelligence Agencies" and instead found the CIA page would you be surprised by that? The general description of intelligence services is under "intelligence services". They are all secretive. Wiki-Ed 09:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
The CIA is referred to as such in the US, and has no other name. Is the SIS referred to only as that in the UK, with no other name ? If not, then your analogy is faulty. StuRat 01:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not in the least bit faulty. The article on the "CIA" is at Central Intelligence Agency and no doubt when talking about that organisation in a formal context (eg. an encyclopedia article) that is what it is called. Same goes for the SIS. In any case, MI6 would be an inaccurate heading. Wiki-Ed 08:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
In their own words, "Although 'MI6' fell into disuse years ago, many writers and journalists continue to use it to describe SIS", http://www.mi6.gov.uk/output/Page50.html BrianDuff 23:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
True, but look at the domain name. They don't seem to fully accept their own argument Tangerine Cossack 11:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Ignore my comment. I see that www.sis.gov.uk works equally well. Tangerine Cossack 11:23, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Armchair experts

I enjoy it when some contributors to this resource are shown up to be completely ignorant and uninformed. Looks like it is SIS (for SECRET Intelligence Service) after all. Just 'cause the man in the street thinks it is officially named MI6, or DI6, or the first 's' stands for Special, or officially it's the "Secret Service", it don't mean it's true. It means they believe the newspapers/movies/bloke down the pub who says he's an expert. The redirect from MI6 to SIS is correct.

Do a bit of research before pontificating here.

Oh shut up.

[edit] Quote: Of his predecessor, Dearlove, no photos exist in the public domain more recent than one taken for his university graduation.

There are now: http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22richard+dearlove%22

[edit] Spies are meant to be executed by firing squad.

Greek newspaper "Proto Thema" publicly named the head of MI6 in retaliation over joint british and greek conducted abduction and torture of 27 ethnic pakistani people from Athens. See and hear:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4561720.stm

spies can be shot only during wartime. Since the operation took place during peacetime ( and probably with at least some knowledge of the Greek government; otherwise it would be too risky ) I dont see how the word "spy" could be used here. plainclothes secret police man or covert agnet might be better term. in any case the newspaper offers no proof. 82.212.19.84 16:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison of MI6 and MI5 is wrong

This article perpetuates a myth about SIS (MI6) and the Security Service (MI5). The myth is that MI6 spies overseas and MI5 spies in Britain. In fact, both organisations work both abroad and at home, but in slightly different ways: MI5 concentrates on protecting British citizens and interests wherever they are in the world, whereas MI6 concentrates on gathering intelligence which might be of use to the government. That's why they have such different names, the Secret Intelligence Service gathers intelligence whereas the Security Service guarantees security.

This is what it says on the official MI5 website (yes, they really do have one now) under the heading "FAQ & Myths":

http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/Page119.html

"Myth 2: MI5 only works in the UK"

"Media reporting sometimes confuses the geographical scope of our work. Threats to national security often come from abroad, for example from foreign intelligence services or from terrorist groups based overseas. Moreover, the scope of national security extends beyond the British Isles and may involve the protection of British interests worldwide, e.g. diplomatic premises and staff, British companies and investments and British citizens living or travelling abroad. Security threats to British interests anywhere in the world fall within the scope of our functions as set out in the Security Service Act 1989."

It might be of interest to note that in the past MI5 has been charged with dealing with events overseas as part of its role as an Imperial Intelligence Agency. MI5 was tasked with intelligence matters throughout the British Empire, and thus there was some overlap between it and its sister organisation, SIS. In such cases it was sometimes the case that an joint organisation was formed in which both MI5 and SIS operatives would participate. MI5's role in the decolonisation process in the British Empire is the topic of some soon-to-be-published PhD/MPhil theses. Asmillar 20:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This information, clearly spelled out, would be useful in the introductions to the articles on both MI5 and MI6. I myself was wondering whether MI5 and MI6 were analogous to the US FBI (domestic jurisdiction) and CIA (foreign jurisdiction) respectively. As it is, MI5 is only mentioned three times in this article. RobertM525 (talk) 06:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is MI6 the same as Special Military Intelligence unit?

Just curious if it is, im trying to confirm the details of Cpt. Fred Holroyd Fluffy999 12:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

British counter intelligence has operated in Northern Ireland under a number of cover names. But since Fred Holroyd seems unreliable and vague ( on his Wikipedia page ) and there seems to be little reason for an MI6 unit to operate in NI ( counter terrorism comes under MI5 ) and there is no mention of a "Special Military Intelligence unit" in NI in Wikipedia it seems unlikely to me that MI6 = Special Military Intelligence unit. of course Special Military Intelligence unit could be a cover name but its not likely to be for MI6. 82.212.19.84 16:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A couple of points

I would support the move to MI6. While this is not the correct name it is the most common, which is what is usually whats used by wikipedia with the correction given in the first sentence (see articles of any pop star for examples of this).

Surely the SIS only covers the UK and not the Republic of Ireland. Is this vandalism? josh (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


Didn't know where to put this, but im sure i recall a rpg attack "MI6" headquarters just thought that should be in the history happened a few years ago 7-8 possiably.

[edit] When was its existence first formally acknowledged?

In the 1994 Intelligence Services Act? Earlier? And what were MI1,2,..., anybody know? I know MI8 was a name, or one of several names, for what is now GCHQ. It's not important, but historically interesting. Anyhow maybe it's still all classified up the wazoo. :)

Nice article, people. Thanks. 209.121.88.198 10:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

MI numbers Directorate of Military Intelligence

Leushenko 01:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SIS organisation at the start of WWII

This was the organisational structure of WWII at the start of WWII, perhaps some details can be used in the main article [1] --jmb (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Chief Admiral Sir Hugh Sinclair
I Political Section
II Military Section, under Colonel Stewart Menzies
III Naval Section
IV Air Section, under Wing-Commander Fred Winterbotham
V Counter-espionage
VI Industrial
VII Finance, under Commander Percy Sykes RN
VIII Communications, under Colonel Richard Gambier-Parry
IX Cypher
X Press
  1. ^ The Secret Wireless War: The Story of MI6 Communications 1939-1945, Geoffrey Pidgeon, UPSO 2006 ISBN 1-84375-252-2