Talk:Secondary education in the United States

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Yarg, of what use is giving all these grades when you don't tell what ages students are supposed to be (on average)? 32.106.202.210 19:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


I agree with all of the bellow, but I was wondering if the "greater control given" with "students able to chose even their core subjects"sections weren't in contradiction to the lower stages of the article in which it states that high schools require "that courses in the areas of English, science, social science, and mathematics be taken by the students every year." I thought these two points to be contradiction and hence I would be gratefull if they could be corrected.


I get a definite feeling that this article needs to be expanded. It covers what high school is in a cold, technical way, but the beauty of wikipedia is that we can really use it to give an impression of what high school IS - to the kids. The cliques, the drama, the way kids change during those 4 years, college aps, there's so much that isn't mentioned here. Those 4 years are when kids incubate and become adults.

I disagree with your assertion to the extent that you are suggesting that the tone should be changed from a cold, impersonal one to a more personal one. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog. Please review the basic Wikipedia policies before you start posting silly things.
On the other hand, with regard to subject matter, I agree that the subject matter should be broadened. The social dynamics of American high schools may be an appropriate subject for this article, to the extent that they can be described from a neutral point of view (appropriately reinforced with citations to authoritative sources). --Coolcaesar 01:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I also agree that the social dynamics of American high schools would be an appropriate subject to be discussed in this article. As a student in an American high school, I could probably help with that. As well, there are several articles on Wikipedia about student culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Student_culture). There is a high school subculture article that could be a good place from which to gather information that could go here. --Der Sporkmeister 13:02, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the fact your are "...a student in an American high school..." gives you *no* extra ability to contribute to this article. This is an encyclopedia, which must have only verifiable information. We must not let our personal experiences enter the encycopedia (without verification). We all know lots of stuff, that's not verifiable, that's true, interesting, but not usable due to the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy of wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a place to share knowledge gained exclusively through personal experience (surprisingly). --Rob 06:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] School students image

Image:Moanaluastudents.jpg is used in many articles about schools, it would be best to find a replacement before it is deleted for lack of source and copyright. If we all look together we should find one in no time. Please post your responses at Image talk:Moanaluastudents.jpg. Thanks! Foofy 21:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cliques

I think the mention of "Subcultures and Cliques" is little more than POV and original research which should be removed *or* should be backed up with appropriate citations, and varying opinions. I prefer its removal though. If this kind of thing was mentioned in a specific high school, where it *actually* verifiably existed; I and others would still remove it as pure trivia. The fact its mentioned on a global basis, when such terms are obviously not universal makes it all the worse. If people wish to learn about stereotypes/subcultures in school, they can watch Saved by the Bell re-runs, and "learn" the same "information". In fact, despite being Canadian, the TV show Degrassi: The Next Generation probably tells more about culture in US high schools, than does this article. --Rob 16:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I removed the culture section. I expect someone to put it back. That's fine. But do it with sources. People shouldn't just write about their personal understanding of the typical high school. Doing so, does nothing to inform people. We need verifiable factual information. Somebody reading this article should read something they didn't know, or didn't beleive, but can verify is true. --Rob 06:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Substantial deletion of unverified information planned

Ok, the cleanup tags have been around a while. It seems nobody is likely to do the research needed to verify information, and cite sources for all the claims in the article. As a result, its time to start removing any and all unverified statements. This article is based largely on "common knowledge". Much of it, maybe all of it, could well be true. But, something has to be verifiably true to exist on Wikipedia.

For example, if a course option is "standard", than find a source that says that. What percent of schools offering an option makes it standard? Much of this article also has weasel words, where near-truisms are expressed. For instance, "If funds are available, a high school may provide Advanced Placement or International Baccalaureate courses". One could qualify everything a school does with "If funds are available, a high school may provide...". If funds are available a school may provide almost anything (it probably won't but it could), and if funds aren't available it can't provide anything. How does this statement inform the reader? What percent of schools offer the special programs, and what percent of students take them? Do all states offer them?

If anybody wishes to add sources, I'll happily leave the article alone. That's why I'm putting this on the talk page, instead of being WP:BOLD. --Rob 08:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that much of the article needs to be either purged or verified with sources. I think you should fee free to be bold! --Coolcaesar 06:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Setup

I plan on going through this all at some point.

I know of a district with seperate 6,7 and 8th grade buildings.

another with a seperate 9th grade building

mine has 6-7, 8-9, 10-12 buildings

and those are three of the largest in the state.

--flyingember

[edit] Which is the main article?

Whereas this article's section on High School lists High School as the main article, High School's section about American High School refers to this article as the main one. Which one is?

[edit] Photo

Can we please replace the picture of the bored-looking girl? Sure, high school was boring at times, but come on. There's gotta be a better picture out there we can use. Wl219 04:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explanations for non-US readers

This article seems to have been written purely from the point of view of an American readership and much of it is completely baffling to anyone who is unfamiliar with the US system. The article needs to be expanded to explain about the American grade system. Which ages correspond with which grades? How do you pass a grade? What does the graduation exam involve? At what age do children begin their secondary education in the US? Dahliarose 13:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

-- This is because many Americans don't even realize how diverse their own education system is. Not all states require graduation exams and the curriculum offered varies depending on the district. The grouping of grades depends also on the state and district as well as funding. I looked this up recently, the state I live in uses property taxes to fund public schools- the dirt poorest district, which is in a very rural community, only funds their students at $1,600 per students where as the most affluent district gets $29,000 per student a year, the ACT/SAT test scores certainly show the difference. Anyhow on the grades, again each state/district sets the rules, Kindergarten (if offered) 4-6 years old, 1'st grade 5-7 years old, 2'nd grade 6-8 years old, 3'rd grade 7-9 years old. 4'th grade 8-10 years old, 5'th grade 9-11 years old, 6'th grade 10-12 years old, 7'th grade 11-13 years old, 8'th grade 12-14 years old, 9'th grade 13-15 years old, 10'th grade 14-16 years old, 11'th grade 15-17 years old, 12'th grade 16-18 years old. Most public schools only allow students to attend until 21 years of age at which point their last option for an academic education is to attend classes, typically subsidized, and get a GED. Compulsory attendance varies between 14-18 years of age depending on the State. An increasing trend is some students are earning their GED then attending college before they would have graduated. Some poorer rural schools combine the elementary students from grades 1-6 into 2 year blocks Eg; 1'st and 2'nd grade in the same class, so they can "Max" out the class size to the largest state allowable size to save money on teachers. A few districts, mostly urban, attend school year round with the students divided into 3 groups that rotate between 6 weeks of classes and 3 weeks of break to save money on both teachers and buildings instead of the traditional around Labor day to around Memorial day set up. Some districts break the school organization into Elementary, Middle, Junior High, and High school while others break it into Elementary, Middle School, and High School. In very rare occasions, mostly in dirt poor rural districts, there is only one school building housing all grades. There is a common misconception that inner-city schools are the poorest while in fact the poorest districts are in rural areas. There is also a misconception that private schools offer a higher quality education but this isn't always true either. Some schools offer either a JROTC program, increasingly this is the case as they get additional Federal funding and resources if they offer it, and Vocational-Technical (Vo-Tech) programs to prepare the student for a vocation instead of college along with a curriculum designed to prepare them for college. Jsoo1 08:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Wow you mean to tell me theres no criticism of the American public school system??!!....Yeah riiiight somebody's being TOO neutral if you ask me --Blackdragon6

[edit] Gifted vs AP

These are currently classified as the same groups of people. This is so wrong! First of all, AP should be in its own section. Taking an AP class does not require a special talent in that area. It is just a harder class with more rigorous standards. Second of all there is no such thing as a gifted student! People who are gifted in one area are very likely to have learning disabilities in others. There should be a section entitled "Alternative Learning Styles" or something like that. Better yet would be to word the title so that assistance provided to students in all areas could be included - peer counseling, physical assistance, etc. CClio333 16:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name Vs System?

I go to a Middle School, at least that's what it is called. Our class doesn't move around in groups to go to the exact same classes with the exact same people, if that's what this article is talking about. I didn't understand much of it, to be honest. Students can also have two electives which includes things besides music, which Middle Schools apparently don't have. Can Junior High schools be called Middle Schools?OrangeAipom 05:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right, the article is unclear. It seems to me that a lot of the articles on education in the US were being worked on when somebody lost interest, leaving a great big mess. Terms vary by school district. My personal opinion is that a Junior High must have ninth grade (and possibly tenth grade) students, but just try finding a good internet source that says that, and you'll see why people gave up on these articles. AnteaterZot 09:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More references needed

I tagged the article as requiring more references. An article this long and comprehensive ought to have a lot more than the current two. Cosmo0 (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)