Talk:Secondary education

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Secondary education article.
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[edit] School students image

Image:Moanaluastudents.jpg is used in many articles about schools, it would be best to find a replacement before it is deleted for lack of source and copyright. If we all look together we should find one in no time. Please post your responses at Image talk:Moanaluastudents.jpg. Thanks! Foofy 21:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Merging secondary school to this entry

782 articles link to the stub "secondary school." How about a simple merge? - MPD 09:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Because it can be a disambig for "high school" OR "secondary education". WhisperToMe 03:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

True, but because one concept includes the other, the most rational approach would be to link to the larger topic and include a dab link at the top for the smaller one, no? - MPD 00:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with a merge.TrogdorPolitiks 19:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I Think having such a ridiculously short article is just a waste of an article, and could just as easily fit in with the other article. --SA@calcnet 06:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Just read "Secondary Schools", definately merge these two! --BakugekiNZ 21:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Secondary education expands beyond high school, in that middle school is also a form of secondary education. Secondary education should be the primary entry with high school and middle school being distinct in showing the differences in 5-8, 9-12 settings and other various such settings in which secondary education is completed. --Jon Cates 00:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm assuming you're talking about the American system. Did you consider my proposal below? At some point, Secondary education in the United States could spawn American high school and American middle school. I hope this article already helps somewhat in that it establishes an international context, and mentions middle school and high school as names used on this level. Would you have comments on this? As Americans are a major user group of the English language Wikipedia, perhaps Middle school, for example, should be a disambiguation page:

Middle school may refer to:

(based on looking at the current mess at Middle school) --TuukkaH 11:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree entirely, as the German school system is too complex to be thrown in the wash with our own.Alexnye 06:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The English language Wikipedia and the concept of secondary education are international, so we don't have "our own system" but instead we have to give an overview of the different systems. Whatever your own system, there is or can be a separate article for it. Rather than just "disagree entirely", could you perhaps propose something better to clean up this mess of articles, based on your expertise in secondary education? --TuukkaH 09:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong Disagree: The problem is not that the topics are similar, the problem is that the high school article is written like secondary education article. This article has to be rewritten as a more specialized section not a general article. But to claim they are all the same and throw them into one big mess called secondary education is outrageous for any "English" speaking foreign educated people.Steroid Expert 05:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong Disagree Why would we merge Gym with Secondary School? Just because a gym is in a secondary school, doesn't mean it shouldn't have its own article. That's stupid!

I cannot even find an article on secondary school. Secondary school gets diverted to high school which is a complete nonsense. It would make more sense to redirect secondary school to this page. A high school is a type of secondary school and the terminology is only used in certain countries (eg America). High schools and secondary schools are not one and the same thing and the terms are not interchangeable. There is I think a need for a separate article on high schools but much of the existing article on high schools seems to cover secondary education worldwide even in those countries which don't use the words high school. It would make much more sense to move say the UK content from the high school page to this page and also do the same for other countries which don't use the words high school. Dahliarose 09:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've now removed the redirect from secondary school to high school and just included a simple listing of types of secondary school which can presumably be expanded. Secondary school does I think need to have a separate definition as does high school but the two terms cannot be used synonymously. Dahliarose 10:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with merging gymnasium with secondary school. I am teaching at a gymnasium (gümnaasium) in Estonia. What I have found to be unique about the Estonian gymnasium (compared to the American high school) is that it includes grades 1 through 12. In fact, on September 1, the traditional first day of school, there is a ceremony in which the 12th grade students formally welcome the 1st grade students. This short ceremony has a lot of symbolism with first/last, youngest/oldest, and of the journey through childhood and adolescence as well as through school grades. While there are separate head teachers for the primary grades and the secondary grades, there is one director, and all of the teachers attend the same teachers' meetings. School discos include students from grades 5 to 12 up until 22:00 and then only from grades 9 to 12 to 23:00. So I believe gymnasium is something special, especially in my American eyes, and something that encompasses much, much more than secondary education. A gymnasium is a community of youth from 5 or 6 years of age to 18. RobKevHog 18:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Gymnasium and secondary school articles should not be merged. I think this problem is even more complex. The thing is that educational systems around the world are organised in various ways, and it is virtually impossible to compare them, and in result it's difficult to explain all this in an international encyclopaedia. Something called gymnasium in one country refers to something very different in another country. In some countries term secondary school refers to the school that precedes university, whereas gymnasium precedes secondary school. In others however it does not act as the 'middle school' as mentioned above (Estonia). Term high school, in many countries for example in Poland can refer to university type education. As I have said merging gymnasium article with middle school article would not fit to the situation in Estonia, and probably some other countries. To sum up, the best solution IMO, would be to rewrite Gymnasium article so that it refers ONLY to the schools that are CALLED gymnasium, and explains its role in each country in which it exists. As it makes no sense to refer to the CONCEPT (MEANING) of gymnasium (as there is no homogenous meaning), we cannot talk about 'gymnasium-type' education for instance in Britain - as in current version of gymnasium article. Boyau 20:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison Table

What is that comparison table supposed to be showing? There is no description or explanation for it and it makes no sense. What is the February/September thing about? Is that supposed to be the month and age at which that grade/year begins? Because the England/Wales school year begins in September, not February. Abc30 23:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree totally, someone in for example year 7 in the England and Wales could be 11yrs and a week or 12yrs and a couple of days. New intake year 7s for this year need to have been born between 1st September 1994 - 31st August 1995. As long as the hit the age of 12 this academic year, they qualify as intake 2006. If it's confusing there's no easy way to explain it, sorry!. It gets even more confusing when it comes to Sixth Form DannyM 11:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I'e deleted the table. I think probably the only person who understood what it was trying to show was its creator. Abc30 13:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging lyceum to this entry

Strongly Disagree Why would we merge Lyceum with secondary education? Lyceums have little to nothing to do with secondary education, if anything they deal with post-secondary education but they were certainly a prominant enough movement to even be seperate from that. I think someone was haveing too much fun trying to merge things. It is entirely inappropriate to merge lyceums with this article. -BenFranske 02:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Disagree Lyceum as a word itself would require an article if we talk of ancient greek. Lyceum should not be merged because the word deserves an article. Arctic-Editor 11:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Disagree, as many others above: The article "secondary school" really should be an overview of all school types after "elementary school" in all countries; Lyceum as known is a place in antient Greece as well as some specific schol types of some countries - that's not at all the same. ThomasPusch 11:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification - I'm talking about the American Lyceum movement of the 19th century, not the other information. It should be noted that the American Lyceum movement was actually quite different than the Chautauqa movement, I should probably fix that... -BenFranske 02:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging high school to this entry

Some aspects of the existing high school article should I think be merged with this entry. High school is only used in certain countries but the existing high school article seems to have gone off at a complete tangent and included paragraphs about secondary education in countries (eg, the UK and the Republic of Ireland) which don't use the words high school at all. It would make much more sense to include those paragraphs in here instead. It makes sense to have a separate article on high schools but it should be confined only to those countries which use the terminology. Is high school perhaps synonymous with secondary education in America? Is that perhaps where the confusion has crept in? Dahliarose 09:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually there are a few secondary schools in the Repuplic of Ireland called highschools so the word is used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.152.152 (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grades

I think the entries for the countries where grades are used need to be explained properly. We need to know what ages are covered by each grade. It might be obvious if you live in the country concerned but not to someone who lives elsewhere. Presumably different grades will cover different ages in different countries. Dahliarose 10:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)