Talk:Second Italo-Abyssinian War

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Assessment comments

I've seen several spellings of some of the words in the article.

  • Wel Wel, welwel, Wal Wal, Walwal, Ualual.
  • Maychew, May Chew, Maichew, Mei Chaw

Oberiko 14:13, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Aspects of genocide?

I'd like to see some information here – or perhaps under Italian East Africa – about allegations of Italian atrocities against Ethiopians, including civilians. From what I've found so far, these include:

  1. Gassing of civilians during the invasion itself (1935-6).[1]
  2. An indiscriminate massacre in Addis Ababa in 1936 in retaliation for an assassination attempt against the Viceroy, Grazziani.[2]

No doubt there are more allegations – does anybody more expert than I have any information? QuartierLatin1968 19:49, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] use it

http://www.archive.org/stream/1960-09-22_25_years_ago/1960-09-22_25_years_ago_256kb.mp4



[edit] Questions on Casualties

If the Ethiopians had 16,000 casualties and the Italians had 15,000, then the POV of this article should be debated, because the article does not mention how the Ethiopians inflicted 15,000 casualties on the Italians; the article only reflects how the Italians basically marched into Ethiopia, slaughtered the massess and took control (except for the mention of the battle of Tembien, which proved inconclusive), this article is possessing a gaping whole on how Ethiopia inflicted nearly as many casualties on the Italians as the Italians had on the Ethiopians (they almost equal).

Subotai 08 Sep 2006


I agree the casualty count is way off! I can pull up many articles stating that at least 275,000 Ethiopian's were killed on the battle field. And the Italian military lost between 1,500-5,000 soldiers, but no more then that. As a matter of fact I have never ever seen proof that the casualty count of 16,000 Ethiopians killed compared to 15,000 Italians killed is a accurate number! The casualty count needs to be changed to a more realistic number.

-- The figure I've seen for Italian casualties are 1500 - 1600. It may be an off-by-ten typo. See http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/baker_00/03/baker-mc-03/ethiopia.htm, http://www.inithebabeandsuckling.com/Mistake.html. I don't know where you've seen 275,000 battlefield casualties for the Ethiopians, though. There could easily have been that many total Ethiopian casualties throughout the war, but if the estimates I've seen 0f Ethiopia's armed forces are correct, at 100,000 men, you'd have to kill each of them 2.75 times. This seems improbable. Brucemoko 07:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed

Please cite (preferably easy-to-access) evidence of support from Pope Pius XI and Winston Churchill.

[edit] Recent additions

An IP recently increased the troop number under Haile Selassie from 100k to 500k and added some generals for commanders (I don't think Haile Selassie would properly be a commander, though; Imeru or other generals would be more appropriate). I think the new figure is probably more accurate (the army at the Battle of Adwa was 100k alone), but it's not cited. If anyone can verify or deny it, that would be helpful. Meanwhile, I'm going to look for my book "The Lion by the Tail" and hope that I actually own it and it wasn't just borrowed. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 04:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The casualty numbers need to be changed to a more realistic number. There is no evidence that only 16,000 Ethiopians were killed compared to 15,000 Italians. On the other hand there is a ton of evidence suggesting that 275,000 Ethiopians were killed on the battlefield. This site is supposed to depict what actually happened in the second Italo-Abyssinian war so lets make it accurate! Here is at least four links showing evidence of much different casualty numbers:

This site actually mentions several books which clearly state that 275,000 Ethiopians were killed on the battlefield. And the Italian casualties were less then 15,000 killed: 1) http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#Eth35

A Ethiopian site mentions similiar casualties. Again they say 275,000 Ethiopian killed. And again the Italian casualties were far less then 15,000. 2)http://www.nazret.com/history/

More evidence: 3) http://www.waukesha.k12.wi.us/west/Dept/Grunske/WHAP%20Powerpoints/37_files/frame.htm#slide0009.htm

This link has a article mentioning a much lower Italian casualty number: 4) http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/Baker_00/03/baker-mc-03/ethiopia.htm

I just checked the first two references. Both state 275,000 Ethiopians killed - the first says "Battle Deaths", the second implies total casualties, most probably civilian. I can't read the third. I think the first site is counting civilian deaths during the invasion. So the question becomes, which does the generic box label "casualties" refer to? (and it seems to specify Italian casualties without Eritrean casualties, which may have been roughly equal). Maybe the wording should be changed? Or we could specify 16,000 military casualties and 275,000 total?

Brucemoko 08:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The forces of the Ethiopian army according to Mockler's book discribing their strengths I have compiled in this: Ethiopian orbat Second Italo-Abyssinian War

The known strengths come to 242,500 men and it is probably about 300,000 men in total. The 250,000 men casualties would mean nearly the total manpower of Ethiopia was slaughtered. From what I have read this does not seem at all likely. This has to be an overstatement of losses.Asiaticus 00:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So why is there lots of sources saying that 275,000 Ethiopian soldiers were killed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Historymatters (talk • contribs) 01:20, 27 September 2006

While I agree that the figure of 16,000 is surprisingly low, Asiaticus has added a source for this figure to the article, which is at least as reliable as the ones someone added above -- so it remains part of the preferred version for the moment. If there are "lots of sources" for the higher figure, why don't you take a moment & add some better references to the text for your number instead of simply reverting his edit? PS -- Please sign your comments with four tildes (that is ~~~~) so we know who is writing what. -- llywrch 17:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Who the heck wrote this article on the second Italo-Abyssinian war? Whoever did needs to study a little harder and be less sympathetic towards Ethioipia. Stop being biased! This site is supposed to be as accurate as possible! It's reality after all! Someone added a link up above to a site that mentioned several different books depicting a much different casualty number (275,000 Ethiopians killed vs. 2,000-5-000 Italians killed). He/She also showed a link to a Ethiopian site which also mentioned the same casualty numbers! Showing he/she is unbiased! There is NO evidence that 16,000 Ethiopians were killed compared to 15,000 Italian troops! So why isn't the page edited to a much more realistic number. Those links above under "Recent Additions" gives enough proof to edit the page.


I totally agree. The casualty number still has not been edited and needs to be asap - the numbers ar obviously incorrect. Subotai 17:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


WHO THE HECK keeps changing the casuality count!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The FACT is that 275,000 Ethiopian soldiers were killed compared to 2,000 Italian troops. There is plenty of evidence to suggest this! This site is supposed to be based on FACTS!!!!!!!!!! Yet it is clear that some uneducated individual keeps changing the casuality count to a UNSUPPORTED number of 16,000 Ethiopians killed compared to 15,000 Italians killed! Even Pro-Ethiopian sites agree with what I am writing! Here is one of the links: http://www.nazret.com/history/

I have not made any edits but you are wrong by saying that the 275,000 were soldiers. Most of them were civilians killed by Italian gas attacks. It is possible that the 16,000 Ethiopians killed stands for the regulars of the Ethiopian army. 82.128.170.111 12:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] what is "legge taglionis"?

and why is it left untranslated? only google references to it are this quote. and many of them are wikipedia related. --144.122.238.146 15:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


legge taglionis is Italian for lex talionis, which is Latin for "law of retaliation". Basically, an eye for an eye.

Mhm, in Italian is it:legge del taglione. --F l a n k e r 11:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crimes of the Fascist Army?

So all of a sudden the use of poison gas is a crime? Last time I checked, everyone used poison gas in WWI. Does that mean that France, Britain, Canada, and the United States are all guilty of massive crimes? Should I go and edit the World War I article to say the crimes o9f the British, American, and French forces aare widly known today? How is this any sort of objectivity? - Izzo

The Geneva Protocol, signed by 16 nations including Italy, outlawed chemical warfare, so using poison gas after 1928 was a war crime. GhePeU 11:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 16000 and 16000

Pardon me, but 16000 and 16000 casualties on both sides is total nonsense, especially as there us no way the Italian could have suffered 16000 dead. Perhaps the persons who always changed the figure to 16000 would be kind enough to explain me how Ethiopians caused 16000 dead to Italians. --Kurt Leyman 19:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added sources now. The casualties (killed) for the 1935-36 fighting seem to be around 10,000, with an equal number of killed in the next 4 years, but with many more wounded. We still need some sources for Ethiopian casualties, but why do you regard such a figure as "nonsense"? There were plenty successful Ethiopian counteroffenses and defensive maneuvers in the war. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 20:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huge bias

This article seems to have a focus on condemning Italian actions rather then keep an impartial description of the war. I'm putting a NPOV tag on it and recommend that any and all Italian war crimes be cited and moved to a separate section. Oberiko 17:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't 'war crimes' part of the war itself? How can you have an article about this war without mentioning the things the Italian army did to the Ethiopian civilians - also a major factor in why World War II far eclipses any other war in history in terms of lives lost. There should be no separate section, and it's perfectly fair to point out the disparity between the lives lost of both sides. SempriniWalrus 12:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, I've had a related discussion about a year ago (I don't think the other party has any recent involvement with Wikipedia). See also Special:Contributions/86.135.150.62, User_talk:Gyrofrog/2006Feb-Jun#Second_Italo-Abyssinian_War and User talk:Sezziemezzie. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BIAS

I'm sorry for deleting a part without disscusing it first... BUT "genocide based on race"????no sources, no nothing on it. to the writer: Are you sane? What 500 000 "international black volunteers"? The Italian Fascist regime began employing racial laws much later (so it could legitimize ties with Germany which was 3-4 years AFTER the second Abyssinian-Italian war ended). This war was not a "race war" (i bet you are American), it was a war of agression based only on economical and strategical principles. If the Italians wanted to eliminate all Ethiopians than why did they employ 250 000 native Askaris as mercenaries 4 years later against the British? Hell... the East African Italian Army was composed largely of Ethiopians. Wouldn't they rebel if they were being systematically murdered (that is genocide if you do not know) since they were armed and organised in seperate units????? 86.104.216.79 11:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, the native soldiers were not Ethiopian but Eritrean. The Italians did make use of auxilary military forces known as bandi, who were raised from the various peoples who lived inside the pre-1936 borders. As for the rest of what you wrote, I agree mostly with what you wrote: the Italians were not exceptionally racist for their time. (Remember, this was during the period of Jim Crow in the US, wide-spread acceptance of Eugenics, as well as legal discrimination based on ethnic backgrounds in many other first-world countries.) I'm not defending anyone's behavior here, just trying to put one country's actions into perspective. -- llywrch 20:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The Italians did actually recruit fairly large numbers of regular askaris from Ethiopia during their brief occupation - the 28 Eritrean infantry battalions existing in 1936 had been increased by 1940 to a total of 93, drawn from the entire territory of A.O.I. (Italian East Africa or Eritrea plus Somalia plus Ethiopia). This was in addition to the bande - a generic Italian colonial term for irregular units from any of their East African acquisitions. In military terns this rapid expansion was not a good idea - the veteran Eritrean units were diluted by a substantial intake of new recruits (many possibly conscripted) with no reason to feel any loyalty to Mussolini's new empire. During the campaign of 1941 most Ethiopians serving with the Regio Corpi di Truppe Coloniali appear to have deserted. I agree that the Italians were no more racist than other colonial powers of the period - and less so than some. The Facist invasion of Ethiopia was brutal agression but talk of deliberate genocidal policies doesn't make much sense.Buistr 19:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

[edit] article or section does not cite any references?

Which part of the article or section does not cite any references or sources?. Please list them ... J. D. Redding 21:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

See talk above Hawker Typhoon 17:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Could you list the individual items here? Bullet them please ... be easier to address each point if it was concise and in a one item bullet each. The above rambles on and on ... J. D. Redding 00:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of this article disputed?

Which parts are the neutrality of this article disputed? Please list them ... J. D. Redding 21:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

See talk above Hawker Typhoon 17:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Could you list the individual items here? Bullet them please ... be easier to address each point if it was concise and in a one item bullet each. The above rambles on and on ... J. D. Redding 00:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


Apologies for the above curt comments! No offence intended! I'm not entirely sure - I didn't add the tags - but certain parts of the article don't make much sense to me. For example, the phrase "With an attack appearing to be inevitable, the Emperor Haile Selassie ordered a general mobilization. His new recruits consisted of around 500,000 men..." contravenes the infobox (100,000 (some ill-equipped) (maybe as many as 250,000?)). As for the neutrality, phrases like "episode in the Italian occupation of Ethiopia was the ''slaughter'' of Addis Ababa of February..." could be more impartially described, and "Many Italian troops had themselves photographed next to cadavers hanging from the gallows or hanging around chests full of detached heads.", although it may be true, needs verification. The source is in Italian, does it cover this entire sentence? And with the title of the book (something like The gas of Mussolini), could it be considered a non-biased source? Furthermore, were there any objectionable acts comitted by the Ethiopians? I imagine tensions were high - these acts shoudl be included too. Hawker Typhoon 21:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] 1935 Italian intelligence estimate of the Ethiopian provinces and their forces

  • I have been given a 1935 Italian inteligence estimate of the Ethiopian forces from an Italian source who has a long standing interest in this war and has accumulated a lot of period info on the war. This may also be of use to those making up a list of the provincial organization of the Ethiopian Empire at the time. Asiaticus (talk) 02:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Here it is:
  • About the available forces, at the beginning of the war the Abyssinians were divided as follows (according to Italian sources). Note that the term "province" is used in a generic way, in some cases it's just a loose geographical reference to the recruiting area : the effective "political" subdivision of the Abyssinian Empire were the following "Kingdoms":
  • Western Tigrai Kingdom (Adua : Ras Seium Mangascià)
  • Easterm Tigrai Kingdom (Macallè : Degiac Haileselassiè Gugsa)
  • Beghemeder Kingdom (Debra Tabor : Ras Casa Hailù)
  • Goggiam Kingdom (Debra Marcos : Ras Immirù)
  • Uollo Kingdom (Dessiè : Hereditary Prince Asfauossen)
  • Scioa Kingdom (Addis Abeba : Negus Hailè Sellasiè own fiefdom)
    • Cellia, Nonno, Uolisò, Gabbo, Amoia, Soddo, Guagliè, Marequò and Gamma (I add this list of Scioa provinces providing troops to the Army of the Center from Regio Esercito website based on a contemporary article on the war. La preparazione abissina }Asiaticus (talk) 02:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Caffa Kingdom (Sciarrada - Ras Ghetacciou)
  • Sidamo Kingdom (Aberà - Ras Destà Damton)
  • Harar Emirate (Harrar - Prince Makonnen)
  • Gimma Sultanate (Giren - Abba Gifar Sultan)
  • Aussa Sultanate (Sardò - Mohamed Jaio Sultan)
  • and a quite large number of independent provinces (mainly in the Western and South-Western parts of the Empire).

[edit] Ethiopian Imperial Army mobilization (per Italian estimate)

  • Imperial Guard (approx 5000 men)
  • Zebangà (approx 3000 men)
  • Army of the Left (Ras Immirù)
    • Goggiam Safari (Goggiam, Damot and Gubà provinces, under Ras Immirù himself ) 20.000 men
    • Semien Safari (Semien, Caffa, Birecutn, Uolacit, Tzeghedè, Uogherà, Uoldebbà and Belesà provinces, under Ras Aialeu Burrù) 20.000 men
  • Army of the Center (Ras Muluguetà),Shoa region, 50000 men
    • (Cellia, Nonno, Uolisò, Gabbo, Amoia, Soddo, Guagliè, Marequò and Gamma provinces)
  • Army of the Right (Ras Cassa Hailù Darghiè)
    • Beghemeder Safari (Beghemeder, Salalè Derrà, Bugnà, Dembià, Ermacioccò, Quarà, Tacossà and Alefà provinces, under Ras Cassa himself ) 50000 men
    • Calim Gurà province (Degiac Aberrà Tellà) 1000 men
    • Nudlà province (Deciac Ambaccion) 1000 men
    • Tigrai Safari (Adua, Axum, Scirè, Adi Abò, Gheraltà, Tembien, Aterghallè, Sceloà, Agamè, Aulalò, Endertà, Uoggerat and Enda Meconni provinces, under Ras Seium Mangascià) 20000 men
    • Uagh Safari (Lasta, Uagh and Uoffa provinces, under Uaghscium Chebbedè) 5000 men
  • Army of the South (Ras Destà Dentou)
    • Sidamo Safari (Sidamo, Giam Giam and Borama povinces, under Ras Destà Dentou himself) 13000 men
    • Ogaden Safari (Grasma Afework) 16000 men
    • Bale Safari (Degiac Beienè Merid) 4000 men
    • Herranghiè Safari (Degiac Nasibù) 8000 men
    • Ilu Bador Safari (Degiac Maconnen Endalaccion) 15000 men
    • Arussi province (Degiac Amdè Micael) 5000 men, mostly irregulars
  • Uollo Safari (Uollo, Borana, Amhara and Saint provinces, Crown Prince Merdazmac Asfauossen)
    • Zabul and Yeggiù Safari (Degiac Admasù Burrù)
    • Aussa Safari (Deciac Mohamed Iahi)
    • A combined total of 45000 men, all under overall command of the Crown Prince)
  • Lecachellon and Saio provinces (Fitutari Mesteniè) 10000 men
  • Effrem, Efata and Antoccià provinces (Ras Cheddebè Menghescià) ???? men, mostly irregulars
  • Uolleggà and Lechenti Sibu provinces (Bituodde Manconne Demsou) 15000 men
    • Gudrù and Liceca provinces (under overall command of Bituodde Manconne Demsou) 8000 men
  • Beni Sciangul tribes (Dagiac Mohamed Schek Ogialle) 500 men, mostly irregulars
  • Nono, Nuoliso, Guraghè, Maroccò provinces (Ras Menghietà) 28000 men
  • Gardulla, Gamu, Comso provinces (Degiac Abebr Damtou) 3000 men, mostly irregulars
  • Limmu and Ennaria provinces (Bituodded Uoldetzadech) 3000 men
  • Gambatta province (Degiac Mascescià Uoldiè) 600 men
  • Gherà province (Degiac Menghascià Ibma) 500 men
  • Uolamo Safari (Degiac Makonnen Uoseniè) 6000 men
  • Caffa, Contà and Cullò provinces (Ras Ghetacciou) 9000 men
  • Gimma and Giangerò provinces (Degiac Uoldamanuel) 10500 men
  • Magi province (Fiturari Zeudù) ??? men
  • Ghimirrà and Guardafà provinces (Degiac Taiè Gulelaitè) 6000 men

[edit] Source

  • This Ethiopian OOB comes from Italian SIM (Military Intelligence Service)reports, that were included in information material handed out to all officers in Italian East Africa (Comando Superiore AO. Stato Maggiore. Uff.Inf.ni - Etiopia. Guida pratica per l'ufficiale destinato in AO. Asmara 1935 pages 103-106). It is a photocopy from the Italian Army General Staff Historical Office (USSME) archives.Asiaticus (talk) 02:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


I'm proposing that this page be moved to Second Italo-Ethiopian War. From google hits, the term seems to be more common with 1360 hits vs. 720 with "Abyssinian," many of which are from Wikipedia (some from related pages) and its mirrors. This is parallel to the First Italo-Ethiopian War, which I moved from First Italo-Abyssinian War, as the former was more common. The general term (without "First" or "Second") is also more common with "Ethiopian" (23,700) compared to with "Abyssinian" (9,490). Ethiopia was known as "Ethiopia" officially by the English-speaking world at this time (Haile Selassie insisted on the differentiation between "Abyssinia" and "Ethiopia" in 1930), so there's no reason the page should be at the current location. Note that the current page uses a regular dash ("-"), while the First war uses an ndash (–). Which do we want to use? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"Haile Selassie insisted on the differentiation between "Abyssinia" and "Ethiopia" in 1930" -- if this is true, please add some details to Ethiopia#Name or elsewhere as relevant. Arlright 02:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Google is a funny thing. Performing the same searches, but excluding "Wikipedia" gives entirely different search results: Second Italo-Abyssinian War: 2460; Second Italo-Ethiopian War: 578. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 06:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion

As indicated above, this article needs some serious work in general. The current "Conclusions" section seems devoid of any "conclusions." Instead, the section seems to try to take one from 1936 to today with a whole lot of "broad stroke commentary" with no dates or details. An actual "conclusion" might be better (I have actually seen a few in several books . . . which could be cited) and a few links could replace most of the "commenttary" ( . . . yes, the Dergue replaced Haile Selassie in 1974 . . . but does this need to be more than a link in an article about a war fought in the mid-30s?). I hope no one will object if I start a little rework . . . after I have pulled some books together. Mkpumphrey 16:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leagues

While you are about it, the following sentence was unsourced: The Italians re-interpreted this to mean 21 nautical leagues, as opposed to 21 standard leagues, which gave them greater territory. I would expect a league to be three nautical miles, so the implication that the Italians invented their interpretation seems doubtful and POV. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Casualties

Christopher Duggan, Professor of Italian History at the University of Reading cites Italian deaths of 4,500 in his just published "The Force of Destiny - A History of Italy Since 1796" (ISBN 978-0-713-99709-5 ; Penguin Books 2007). This would suggest that the Sbacchi figure of 10,000 inserted in the article may be an inflated one. 210.246.16.207 (talk) 12:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)