Talk:Second Coming

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[edit] Eastern Orthodox Views

I would be very grateful to anyone who can fill in some more information on the Eastern Orthodox views of this subject. I've always wondered why the second largest Christian organization in the world is so unknown. I, a non-Christian in general, can't do the work myself and have been unable to find any good source of information on the subject. Thanks. shinsukato —Preceding comment was added at 02:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus again

I want to say that armageddon the last war mentioned in the Bible is at hand and most probably next year. Iran's president is the messiah as muslims believe and the jesus will come at the situation that is very near when a great techer is needed.As told by Benjamin Creme , he will be a non religious person and exists. I want to infor that he is in india and a born muslim and have a common view to all humanity. his name is Zikrullah and he is coming in light through TVnetworks very soon.

ok, what? your spelling is shocking. And no, we dont think Iran's president is Jesus, we believe Jesus is Jesus.

Isn't Maitreya like the 7th coming of Buddha? how does he fit into Second Coming, then? Mydotnet

Creme was saying in full page advertisements in about 1981(?) that the Christ was about to be revealed. Is this old new-age weirdo still alive? Armageddon occurs at the end of 7 years of tribulation. There will be a major war before the tribulation. Many will think that this is Armageddon, and will accept Benjamin Creme's pseudo-christ as the real thing. Well, he will bring a temporary peace between Israel and the moslems! Half way through the tribulation, when Satan takes him fully over, it will be obvious that he is the Antichrist. Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years. rossnixon 09:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
In answer to the first user, whoever he/she is, kindly read Matthew 24:36 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV) which says: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

No one can set any dates yet for Armageddon because the Rapture hasn't occurred yet. As far as anyone claiming to be 'Christ':
Matthew 24:4-5 (King James Version)
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
If you return to this page and discussion (and I hope that you will) then check the book listing that I inserted in, or go to my user page for a listing of books.
In answer to the last user who mentioned Creme, read Dave Hunt's good but dated book, "Peace, Prosperity and the Coming Holocaust", again on my userpage.--MurderWatcher1 22:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

This page is about 1/3 fundamentalist evangelical religious propaganda.

prepares the delete button::

Hope no one minds too much.

I agree, it's actually kind of funny to read. Having many equally unencyclopedic propaganda somehow balance this out. I'm about to start on a deleting/changing frenzy. Cuñado - Talk 02:33, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. This purpose comming event is a mayjor mental and/or sociallogical causality factor, or at least regligious folk's expectancy is, so it warrants documention. Do ya agree to that assertion? Zarutian 00:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't saying to delete the page. Of course the second coming is important. But the page was full of propaganda. Cuñado - Talk 02:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I hope you are good at boiling out biases in articles Zarutian 00:44, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nostradamus

I think nostradamus' prediction regarding year 1999 was not the second coming of christ but the coming of some new king --128.214.200.98 09:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Like the birth of the Antichrist? rossnixon 10:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Why is anyone into Nostradamus? His quatrains can be interpreted anyway a reader wants to interpret them! In contrast, Scripture can only be interpreted and understood one way -- literally!--MurderWatcher1 22:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Erm... I think I'll refer to Athanasius and the other fathers concerning the multiple levels of interpretation of scripture.--C.Logan 08:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion about Christian Outlook

Maybe some kind person would be able to clarify Christian outlook concerning the second coming. My understanding is the Christians claim Jesus returned to earth shortly after his death and execution, spending time with many of his closest associates. Why then do Christians talk about a second coming as if this were some as yet unfulfilled prophecy? Why do they insist he has to appear yet again, and if he did wouldn't this be (according to their views) a third coming? --Philopedia 23:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The claim is not that he returned to earth after his resurrection from death. He was still here on earth for 40-50 days following. The "second coming" has many associated "apocalyptic" events - which clearly have not yet occurred rossnixon 01:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, Messianic prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.209.78.19.42 17:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There's actually a lot of debate within the Christian community concerning this. For the most part, Christians agree on the idea that Christ is going to return a second time to judge the world based upon His promise at the ascension. The debate concerns the seven year tribulation (whether it's literal or figurative) and the 1000 year reign of Christ.

But, just so you understand, the Christ we see after the resurrection but before the ascension is NOT the second coming. The promise of the second coming was given just before the ascension, so Christ would not promise He would come again AFTER he had already done it.

Yeah, the second coming and the resurrection are two different things. Second coming is still to come. It could be tommorow, it could be 2,000 MORE years.

[edit] Article cleanup

I've started a major cleanup of this article, merged info from the article Parousia, and moved related concepts from other religions to the See Also section. I've left the cleanup tag, because there is still more work to do. --JW1805 (Talk) 04:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] most biblical sources irrelevant

most biblical sources at the beginning of the article refer to assension to heaven or the kingdom of god, not the second coming. check them out. unless i don't know of some kind of connection between all those that makes them the same. even if some kind of logic makes the same it has to be addressed. without it, they are logically different things.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.76.99.106 (talk • contribs) 04:10, April 20, 2006

It is relevant because that was when He promised to return.

[edit] Islam

He will then wage a battle against the false Jesus or Dajjal, break the cross, kill swine and call all humanity to Islam.

Just to be sure: is "swine" here to be taken literally as the link suggests? That's pretty harsh. "To do: descend from heaven. Battle Antichrist. Kill all the piggies." Weregerbil 11:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The idea that Jesus was replaced by a duplicate is the opinion of Muslim scholars. The Quran does not say anything about a duplicate. All it says is that it was made to seem like Jesus had been crucified but that anyone who thinks they can kill Jesus is fooling themselves. It also states that Jesus was taken up to God to await for the appointed hour of his return. It does not state that his physical body was taken to heaven either. Nmentha 21:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved that section from the main article to a non-Christian view section (see comment below about Bahai as well). The resson being that the second coming is commonly referred to as a "Christian" belief and Christians do not look outside the Bible for support or theories. The Bible would consider these other (Islam or Bahai) to be false teachers and their beliefs heresy. Although I am not debating the other beliefs, I do think this part should not be in a Christian belief, I decided to keep it and do a section for non-Christian views. Maniwar 20:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second coming?

If we read Paul literally, there is a distinct impression that this will be Jesus' First and only coming. For example, the following:

  • Philippians 1:6 "The One (i.e. God) who started the good work in you will bring it to completion by the Day of Jesus Christ."
  • Philippians 3:20 "We are citizens of heaven, and from heaven we expect our deliver to come, the Lord Jesus Christ."
  • 2 Thessalonians 1:7 "(God will send relief to us) when our Lord Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in blazing fire".
  • 1 Peter 1:7 "...so that your faith may prove itself worthy when Jesus Christ is revealed."

These examples are due to Doherty; I don't presume to edit this article, but wish to mention it. Perhaps a "Controvesies" section would be worth adding?

[edit] Bahá'í Comment

I'm not sure if Todd unt's comment is appropriate in this section. Any other thoughts on this?: Followers of the Bahá'í Faith believe that the second coming of Jesus, as well as the prophecies of the 5th Buddha and many other religious prophecies of a second coming, were fulfilled in Bahá'u'lláh. They commonly compare Bahá'u'lláh's fulfillment of Christian prophecies to Jesus' fulfillment of Jewish prophecies, where in both cases people were expecting the literal fulfillment of apocalyptic statements.

It is commonly understood that the second coming is "Christian" and that it is the forward look for Christ return and not some other deity or god in another religion outside of Christianity. Although I'm not challenging the belief, I am questioning its placement in the "Christian" second coming. I considered removing it, but wanted other coments. Maniwar 20:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved this section to a non-Christian view section. The point being that as pointed out above, the second coming is commonly referred to a "Christian" belief and Christians do not look outside the Bible for support or theories. The Bible would consider these to be false teachers and their beliefs heresy. I still think it should not be in here, but decided to do a section for non-Christian views. Maniwar 20:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Baha'is do believe that Christ has returned in the personage of Baha'u'llah, and there are many books on the subject including Hugh, Hushidar. in Ed. D Motlagh: I Shall Come Again: Time Prophecies of the Second Coming, Vol. 1. ISBN 0-937661-16-3.  and Sears, William (1961). Thief in the Night. London: George Ronald. ISBN 0-85398-008-X. . The Second Coming is not only Christian; Muslims also believe that Jesus will come back after the end times, and Baha'is believe that those prophecies regarding the Second Coming in both Christianity and Islam have been fulfilled. That you state that forward look for Christ return and not some other deity or god in another religion outside of Christianity is a specific POV. In many places in the Bible Christ says that he will have a new name. So your statement that what the Bible considers these to be false prophets is a decidedly Christian POV, and Wikipedia is striving for NPOV. The paragraph should definitely stay. -- Jeff3000 21:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Again I'm not challenging the Baha' philosophy, but about your POV statement...go and ask just about anyone, "Do you believe in the second coming?" Generally speaking, this is unique to Christianity and that person would assume you are talking about Christianity. For example, in order for a "second" coming to occur, there would have to have been a first. The Baha'u'llah has not had a first coming. Although I do challenge your comment on the Bible stating Jesus will have a different name when He returns, that does not mean He will be a different person. Generally speaking, the second coming is unique to Christianity, although more recently, I will agree, 'some' religions have adopted a 'second coming' variation, yet this has been a basic foundation of the Christian religion from day one. All the others seemed to have morphed into it. Now, if the Baha' (and this is not to bash them, but question them) believe in Christ's return, how do they answer the images of Revelation where Christ is visible and audible in His return? Also, back to another question, where does it say He will come as some other religion's diety in the Bible? Also, why is it that the 2.1 billion Christians do not share the same sentiment as the (roughly) 6 or 7 million Baha'. Would that not be a shared thought if that was Christ's prediction of His second coming? Good discussion. Maniwar 13:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually if you ask a Baha'i if they believe in the Second Coming, they would say yes, and if you ask a Muslim, they would also say yes (the difference being that Baha'is saying that Jesus has come back, and Muslims say not yet). Baha'is believe that the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment in Christian religion, and the many Christian people who accept Baha'u'llah believe they have fulfilled Jesus's covenant. In regards to your questions about how and why Baha'is believe in Baha'u'llah's fulfullment of Biblical prophecies of the Second Coming I would suggest you read the books I noted above (since Wikipedia is not a forum) and all your questions will be answered. They go into detail about the Biblical prophecies regarding the Second Coming (especially why most Christians haven't accepted Baha'u'llah, which BTW was predicted in the Bible). Regards. -- Jeff3000 13:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christ's Second Coming

[edit] Shall not taste death

The article at present reads as follows: "Another verse is more explicit: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27). This reference is related to the disciples who saw Him transfigured on the Holy Mount." This last sentence seems most difficult to justify in that Mathew 16:27, i.e the verse immediately preceding that quoted, says -"For the son of man will come in the glory of his father, with his angels: and he will render to every man according to his works", i.e the context of 16:28 is not the transfiguration but Christ's second coming. It does not appear to relate to the transfiguration account which follows this passage, i.e Math 17:1~, because that happened only six days later whereas "those who shall not taste death" indicates not a short period but something significantly longer. I understand that this verse is the cause of much discomfort with some Christians because it seems to confirm that the imminent return of Jesus is a failed prophecy and this cannot be accepted under any circumstances. As wiki is neutral and not a platform for apologetics I suggest that the sentence beginning "This reference is related to the disciples who saw him transfigured on the Holy Mount" be removed. Any objections? 24 September 2006 5.02pm

Yes. The sentence should be modified to state that "One attempt to explain this has it referring to the Transfiguration which occurred only six days later". If I find a better explanation I will post it here. rossnixon 01:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's a more likely explanation. It fits better with statements like "The Kingdom of God is within you". The reference is not to his final coming to judge the world, but to his spiritual coming to establish his kingdom. This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Mark (9:1) shows the meaning by substituting, "Till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." The "coming of the Son of man in his kingdom" means, therefore, the same as "the kingdom of God come with power." Compare Acts 1:8, and Luke 24:49. The kingdom came with power on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1). rossnixon 02:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope. The gospel writers especially Mark and Matthew equate it with the crucifixtion. I will write this up for the article and will supply the quotes and evidence there. But I wouldn't want to remove the examples of other confussing interpretations this passage has caused - I think they are quite revealing. :) --Just nigel 17:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added to the text of the Main Article a note (at present, note no.3), which says that to interpret the Transfiguration as an an "anticipatory" fulfilment od the Second Coming (Parusia) is only an attempt of explanation of a verse, which otherwise would remain as "embarrassing" (as C.S. Lewis put it, see current note no.2).

Before engaging in a "battle" of deleting and reinserting the note, please discuss it here.Miguel de Servet 14:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam

Here's a question, should the Islam section not be under the Predictions and claims of the Second Coming like all the other claims? Maniwar (talk) 01:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Second"??? Who is counting??

This article is titled Second coming but it never explains from where this number two comes. The section on Biblical origins does not have a quote that calls this the second coming.

We already have one person asking - "but I thought Christians beleive Jesus came back after his death", and another saying "but I thought Christians beleive Jesus only comes once" kind of like "eternally begotten"; so I do not think it adequately communicates what the (mainstream) Christian church teaches about Christ's retrun.

It would help to give this article a context in the broader theological area of eschatology which allows for a final coming, a last judgment, an ultimate realising of the reign of God before narrowing its meaning to those (Christians and / or Muslims) with a belief in a specific 'Jesus came once and he will come twice' chronology. But we still have the difficulty of the title. Mainstream Christian eschatology usually uses the time category of Kiaros (God's time, the fullness of time, the day of the Lord etc) rather than the time category of Chronos (Second coming, this after that, timetables of which year it will happen).

There should definately be a discussion of people who predict days times and years that Jesus will come again and confussion over the statement of Jesus in the gospels that this generation will not pass away before they see the son of man come in his glory ... but so too should there be an understanding that many mainstream Christians see this prophecy fulfilled in Jesus' death, they see the resurrected Christ alive and coming again and again to different people, they hear Jesus saying in the gospels to his disciples to have no part in setting calenadars or chronologies of when he will return and they see that the reality of his final coming is about the full realisation of God's reign and the ultimate act of justice/judgment.

I will have to continue to think about how best to incorporate this into the article. I think it needs a lot of work. --Just nigel 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind Wikipedia:No original research. The term Second Coming is well established, for example http://www.google.com/search?q=second+coming . 75.0.1.189 19:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Surely the second comming was when he arose from the dead. Ie has has already come. --IceHunter (talk) 02:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Future event?

WTF is that tag doing there? This tag is meant for stuff that is scheduled to occur because human beings said "it'd be nice to do this at that date", not for something that might or might not occur according to some divine prophecy. Yoe 18:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have the same feeling about the tag as you do... I was wondering if it was some sort of joke that has never been recognized as such and was thus not removed. However, I'm not familiar with all of Wiki's rules, so I didn't want to delete it if the rules somehow validated its use here.--C.Logan 20:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The tag does not belong on the page per Wikipedia:Current and future event templates. —Viriditas | Talk 08:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I read the template. It says "a well-documented scheduled or expected future event". This is "well-documented" (about a dozen books by several authors) and "expected" by millions. rossnixon 09:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Read closer: All articles about future events must be verifiable. This "future event" cannot be verified. —Viriditas | Talk 09:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that's right that it should not be included. It's verifiable in the sense that a lot has been written about it as a religious belief, but I think the intent of the category/template is for events that humans have some degree of control over--i.e. we can make them happen and we control when they happen. This seems to not be the case with this topic if the timing is believed to be in God's hands. In other words, it's verifiable as a belief but it's not verifiable as a future event. Thus, it shouldn't be in the category and the template should not be used. –SESmith 09:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Omit – I prefer to omit the template. I don't believe this is the type of article for which it is intended. ✤ JonHarder talk 12:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Omit - per above. -- Jeff3000 13:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't care to vote in the matter, but I'm leaning towards omission, only because it seems apparent that the template was not intended for this sort of scenario. Still, I suppose a good argument could be made for inclusion, however.--C.Logan 16:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Omit The note in small type on the template says, "It may contain tentative information; the content may change as the event approaches and more information becomes available." In Christian theology there's nothing tentative about this event, and we will have no additional information until Christ comes "like a thief in the night" -- meaning unexpectedly. This is plainly intended to mark events that have been scheduled or are expected in the ordinary secular sense, not the subject of prophecy. TCC (talk) (contribs) 16:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Omit noting the little revert war going on too. I agree it's POV of some denominations of some religions, and certainly not scheduled on a human standard.--Smkolins 21:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Omit It's ridiculous that this tag should be on this article. IrishPete 00:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

what is "verifiable"? is it something "observable"? in that sense how can any future event be observable? can we 'verify' that the sun WILL one day explode or can we only verify that it appears that one day it may. how can we verify a blackhole wont one day suck it up before it can? this whole concept seems nebulous and vague to me and it appears that after rationally examining the terms being used any article using this header will be subject only to the whims of those voting and not in fact to this noble idea of 'verification'. i would like this cleared up please.70.156.11.235 20:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC) Also, I have no overweening desire to actually have the header placed in this article as I find it would be trivial. Rather, my goal is more universal it is the lack of rationality I mentioned earlier that causes me to write. The very idea of a future event header should be removed if we can't properly define these terms. I have noticed no response. Am I therefore correct or not? Please may someone clear this up.70.156.11.235 21:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we're all too busy looking up "overweening" in our dictionaries. –SESmith 21:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Since noone has offered a good response after two days I have returned the heading. To support this I will cite the rule and defend this decision.

Future events templates indicate articles or sections that describe a well-documented scheduled or expected future event,*

  • (This is well-documented as has been noted earlier. It is not scheduled but it is an expected future event as again was pointed out earlier in the talk page.)

and warn the reader about the speculative nature of the information. Remember that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball: Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation. All articles about future events must be verifiable,*

  • (These sentences are meaningless per my above discussion)

and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred.*

  • (This article is of sufficiently wide interest and I think should it have already occured it would be worthy of an article.)

70.156.11.235 14:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, over the past day the tag has been removed twice. While, I understand some of you may feel that it is "ridiculous" wikipedia is not supposed to be subject to your prejudices. Please, discuss your opinion in the talk page and defend your choice to edit it and I will respect it. But, as long as you have no reason other than your own POV what you're doing it clearly against the Wikipedia:Current and future event templates as I have pointed out above. Thank you. Jstanierm 12:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, you should abandon all personal POVs and ask yourself two questions: 1. Is this article about an event that 'may' occur sometime in the future.

The answer is yes. This article is not discussing an event that has happened or is happening. It is discussing something that a lot of people believe will happen in the future regardless of anyones POV the topic at hand is a future event.

2. Is it 'possible' that the event will happen.

Yes, it is possible. No one can state for a fact that anything in the future will or will not happen.

I feel like I have made good arguments for the inclusion of the tag. I would greatly appreciate it if instead of simply removing the tag you do what no one else has and discuss it here. Jstanierm 12:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia works by consensus. The consensus is clearly that the tag does not belong. Please work within Wikipedia guidelines, and stop readding the tag. Thanks. -- Jeff3000 13:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This occurence of this event is out of the hands of humanity, and has no one has any clear expectations of around when it will happen. In fact, most of those that have dated the event, have placed it in the past, and there are others who actually believe it has actually happened. One person's opinion and interpretation of a tag does not go over the consensus that has been developed. The tag has no place in this article. -- Jeff3000 13:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
First, I would like to thank you, Jeff 3000, for engaging this argument instead of simply removing the tag as most have done.
You have stated, "this occurence of this event is out of the hands of humanity." I would like to direct you to Solar eclipse of August 1, 2008, Post-2008 Atlantic hurricane seasons, Post-2008 Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclone seasons. Additionally, nowhere in Wikipedia:Current and future event templates does it state that the event need be in the hands of humanity.
You also wrote, "there are others who actually believe it has actually happened." First, I would like to point out that full-preterism is a minority view of this event. You also stated "most of those that have dated the event, have placed it in the past" those who have publicly published a date (again a vast minority compared to those who have not dated it) did so expecting a future event, which did not occur. This does not detract from it conceivably being a future event.
The point at issue is not 'will' it occur, rather is this topic a 'future' event. Regardless, if one believes in it or not one can conceive this idea in one's mind, and when the majority do it is in that category of 'future' events.
Take a similar concept for example, Adam and Eve. While, one may not believe these people ever existed the key point is not one's belief but one's syntax when describing them. "Existed" is past tense. Thus, it is a past event regardless of historicity. Regarding future events there is no way to know if they will happen or not. Thus, historicity is meaningless in this context.
I think most have a mistaken view that this is concerning religious fundamentalism or belief sets. This is not the case. This is regarding ideas and their proper designation. Jstanierm 15:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. There is no way to tag this as a future event in an NPOV way. Yes, Christians and Muslims believe that Christ will return. That's a religious belief, not a fact in the neutral sense. In other words, we're not talking about a planned event (such as the United States presidential election, 2008 or the 2008 Summer Olympics) or a mathematically predicted event (like the expected return of Comet Halley in 2061/2) but one not set for any particular time and which not even everyone who's a Christian believes will occur in a literal sense. This template is obviously inappropriate, on its face.
Majorities have nothing to do with the tag either, as you're completely ignoring the non-Christian non-Muslim population. They ipso facto don't believe in the Second Coming because they don't believe in the Incarnation (or Christ's prophethood, for Muslims). You can't take a religious belief -- which I happen to share, so my argument isn't a reflection of my personal POV at all -- and approach it this way. Not on Wikipedia.
How to refer to it in the article is a different issue. Yes, where it's believed in it's thought to be a future event, so the future tense is called for. But not this tag. Off it goes. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I think you meant to say that Muslims don't believe in Christ's divinity.--C.Logan 05:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
No, I meant that people who are neither Christians nor Muslims believe in either version of the Second Coming because they don't believe in the person of Jesus as either religion teaches about him. To Christians he's God Incarnate; to Muslims he's a prophet; and to both he's the Christ. But it was not something I should have attempted to say in a single phrase. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see what you mean. It does seem rather ambiguously phrased.--C.Logan 06:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, for those of you posting I really wish you would have read from the top and not come here and just post your own views because you have ended up arguing against something else entirely. For example, Csernica wrote, "Yes, where it's believed in it's thought to be a future event, so the future tense is called for." Well, let's assume Person B does not believe in the Second Coming. He might express this by saying something like, "I don't believe that the Second Coming 'will' occur." The event he is talking about is a future event. Regardless as to whether he thinks it will happen or not. He conceives of it as that which is future. It is not past, nor present. I am discussing syntax. The Second Coming is a 'future' event.


This is 'not' a discussion about religious beliefs. It doesn't matter if you're atheist, Christian, Muslim there's no reason why anyone should have brought those terms up.
For example, to take an article currently with a future tag at random: Chinese woman in space. I may not believe that the Chinese will have a woman in space by 2010. But, the issue is not "do I or many others believe this will happen?" but rather "is this a future event?" Let us assume that the Chinese fail to put a woman in space by 2010. One event may be more possible, but they are both possible. You may be beyond a doubt certain that Jesus will not return, however since you don't know everything you must admit to yourself that there is a 'possibility' he might return. Let us say a percent chance near 0 yet still possible. The claim of the Second Coming of Jesus may be more unbelievable to some than the Chinese government's claim to put a woman in space. It doesn't matter it is still a claim of a future event.
I am talking about logic and syntax and philosophical truths. I am dealing with absolutes. Either you absolutely say it is possible that Jesus will return or you absolutely say nothing is possible. Possibility is not equal to certainty. As no future event is certain all future events are possible. Unless any one amongst you may claim to know the future beyond doubt.
Unfortunately, it appears many are unable to understand this concept, and prefer to turn the argument into matters of dogma and faith. Therefore, as I am unwilling to constantly repeat myself to every newcomer to this site, I wash my hands and leave the matter to the mob. Jstanierm 18:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


One last note, Csernica also wrote "majorities have nothing to do with the tag either" and yet removed it because a "majority" of people on this talk page feel it must go. Though not one. Not one single person has addressed any of my logical arguments nor my appeal to the future tags rules of use. When this began I asked a fellow contributor to tell me that logic and rules have a place here and are decisions are not subject to the whim of the masses. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case. Jstanierm 18:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scheduled event?

Maybe it's expected if you're a Christian. But scheduled? I thought the time was known only to God. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.111.196.221 (talk) 19:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Reason for external link edit?

Hi, Jeff3000--I noticed that you removed my addition of an external link to the "Second Coming of Christ" article. My link was to a free, publicly available article on a totally non-commercial site (absolutely nothing for sale). The article was completely on topic of the Second Coming. Yet you labeled it as "linkspam" and removed it. I've certainly got no desire for an "edit war," but can you explain to me why you classified the link as spam? Is there any chance you were a bit hasty in your judgment of it? Thanks! :) --LovedByYesu 01:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello loved by you. While your site is free, and without ads, the link does not really pass by the policies set by WP:EL#Links_to_be_considered. The website is closer to a personal website with personal views which are not really considered to be reliable sources in Wikipedia, and are also discouraged as external links. Regards, -- Jeff3000 01:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Is "Coming" a proper noun? If not, this article should probably be moved to Second coming. --BigDT 04:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"Second Coming" as the name of a specific event is a proper noun. If it is ever written in lower case, I for one have never seen it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok ... nobody ever accused me of being a good speller. That's why I asked first. ;) --BigDT 23:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Harold Camping

It says Harold Camping claimed the second coming was 1994. But now he claims 2011, shouldn't that be added in?? --12.40.93.240 00:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can source it, why not? TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not too sure it's necessary to include a list of every person who has ever made a claim that Jesus is returning soon or has claimed to be Jesus on this page. Perhaps a new page titled something like 'People who have claimed to be Jesus' or 'Predictions of the Second Coming' would work better and we could link to that from here. As it is it's slightly off the main subject. Jstanierm 16:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias.

Some sections of this article are un-sourced, and written from a specific perspective from within Christianity, using terms such as "self identified" or "true" Christians, these terms are massively inappropriate for this type of article. Also there are several unreferenced sections which should be deleted unless a verifiable source can be found. Rjbonacolta 12:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's interesting that you complain the article is unsourced while changing this unsourced sentence "The vast majority of those self-identified as Christians (an exception is Full Preterism) look forward to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and do not consider it symbolic of the individual's spiritual rebirth." Into another unsourced sentence "The vast majority of Christians look forward to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and consider it symbolic of the individual's spiritual rebirth." Jstanierm 14:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm reverting this sentence as I have found a source (from a preterist website even) wherein they themselves claim to be a minority viewpoint. A quick google search shows preterism is a minority view and to claim otherwise would be to ignore overwhelming evidence. Jstanierm 14:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
My problem comes from the specific use of the term "self identified...Christians" the term in inherently derisive. Vast majority of those self-identified as Christians" (full quote) I also went through and cleaned up the rest of the paragraph, which still had large sections of personal opinion and could benefit from more sources. Rjbonacolta 16:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The List needs to be cleaned up

I just removed what is clearly non-notable material from the list of predictions in this entry. It strikes me however, that there is alot more of the same in there, and without references establishing the notability of what is containted therein someone should really clean it up and delete more of the information. If you don't establish a good precendent then this list will always be open to SPAM like promotional activity. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 12:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Definitely, we should come up with a set of guidelines for who should be included in the list. I'll have to wait a little before I can edit the article so I don't pass 3RR. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 15:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newton

There are various accounts of Sir Isaac Newton setting the date for the second coming as 2060 and the date of Jews returning to the Holy Land as 1948 [1]. Some papers relating to this were exhibited in Jerusalem recently. Whoever looks after the Newton page on wiki is very allergic to this and will not even allow it to be discussed. --Rolec Dubbing (talk) 11:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)