Talk:Second Battle of El Alamein

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Come on guys add referances to everything we put on here, to back up what you have said otherwise its basically worthless.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] old messages

The tactical details and the description of the battle by the original author left no room for improvement :). Added the first bit "The Situation" to juice the introduction up with some figures, and added Rommel´s sick leave.

Nov 3rd 2003 cyberhunne

I removed this from the 'deception operations' category. Virtually all major battles in WWII will have had an element of deception, so if the category is to be useful it should only refer to operations that were entirely (or mainly) about deception. DJ Clayworth 15:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Acording to Rommel,s papers,the Axis had 95,500 man and 529 tanks. 33,000 were Germans and 62,000 were Italians.Book was edited by Liddle Hart.Also this Article dosent say that Montgomery called Churchil and sayd his plan has Failed and He might have to pull back.Churchill,s reply:is it realy immpossible to find a general who can win a battle.Can anyone confirm that Montgomery actualy did that!

[edit] Artillery Preparation

The article says 882 guns fired about 600 rounds each during the opening barrage - that's 529,000 rounds fired. Can anyone confirm that? Seems like a lot of ammo to expend even by Allied standards. It's much more than what was fired at the beginning of Goodwood or Cobra, for example. Just wondering. DMorpheus 15:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Now the article says the artillery fire totaled 125 tons of shells. OK, with 529,000 rounds and 125 tons, that's less than a half-pound per shell fired. A shell from a US 105mm howitzer weighs 32 lbs. Even the HE round from a 75mm tank gun weighs 14 lbs. Assuming the combination of 25 pounders, 5.5 inch guns, 7.2 howitzers and other ordnance averaged something in that neighborhood, something is wrong with these numbers. DMorpheus 20:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The article uses the word "barrage" three times, but it's doubtful whether it is actually referring to barrage at all - more likely it just means artillery fire. Most of the artillery preparation for the breakout was counter-battery fire and concentrations on known ememy positions. It's highly unlikely that a barrage would have caught the German HQ, and barrages aren't "accurate" - they are designed to sweep an entire area. Cyclopaedic 16:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


Article is correct in terms of rounds fired and number of guns used, one will see the referance to Pendulum of War in regards to that opening barrage.

In terms of tonnage, i will see if i can find referance for that. I dont know for sure but the numbers may not add up due to the switch in how a ton is made up since then and now you know imperial, metric long tonnes etc

As for the word barrage, several were indeed used. There was a rolling barrage during Operation superchage for instance. I dont really see the point over arguing over the wording of blowing the crap out of the desert ;)

"Seems like a lot of ammo to expend even by Allied standards. It's much more than what was fired at the beginning of Goodwood or Cobra, for example. Just wondering."

Its called Colossal Cracks, the Americans didnt really use it and it was mostly a Anglo-Canadian thing to minimise losses. The largest number of guns hitting a target, if possible coupled with air attacks so the infantry can take the objective with min losses.

you may want to look into some other operations the 21st AG ran, bigger and more deadly fire plans then this one. --EnigmaMcmxc 10:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


It may be that the 125tons refers to the initial 20 minute barrage before the infantry advance (which was an intense firing to cause confusion and disorientation amongst the defenders) and the 600 rounds to Kirkman's full firing plan which lasted for five and a half hours. I don't have sources to uphold this view though. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verification

User:Kerbabs made some edits whose accuracy should be checked by some1 knowledgeable. Ksenon 21:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Allies" vs. "British" ?

I am not sure why the latest edit replaces all usages of "British" or "Britain" with the less-specific "Allied". Isn't it the case that almost all the troops on the Allied side in this battle were in fact British or British empire? There was also a brigade of French and some very small other units, so I suppose the argument can be made that "Allied" is the more accurate term. But the allied force was overwhelmingly British and it seems to me better than they be so described. Just my two cents. DMorpheus 15:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, it is technically incorrect to refer to Indians, Australians, South Africans or New Zealanders (as opposed to UK forces) as British. Moreover it is often regarded as offensive. The official collective term at the time was "British Commonwealth". In the second place I think you'll find that the UK forces were in a minority numerically. Grant65 | Talk 23:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd personally prefer to use Commonwealth then, as "Allies" includes the United States and the Soviet Union (among others). Oberiko 15:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, "Commonwealth" is both accurate and specific enough. "Allied" is unnecessarily vague although it is not strictly inaccurate. DMorpheus 16:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The British armed forces at the time consisted of the British Imperial Forces. Contributing to these forces were: The Army of India and forces contributed by the self governing dominions; India, Canada, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Many of the african protectorates assigned units to the Imperial Forces. The principal British unit in North Africa was the British 8th Army, supported by the British Desert Air Force. All of the dominions assigned forces to the 8th Army and Air Units as requested by the Imperial General Staff, based in London. The Chief of Imperial General Staff was Lord Alanbrook. The Australian Government had no defence treaty with the U.K. (and still does not). Its forces were/are contributed voluntarily and on the basis of shared defence needs, tradition, culture, history and good-will.

'Allied', in this context is historically inaccurate and generally refers to the 'Western Allies' or the 'Allied Powers' which would include the, then, USSR. The present British Commonwealth came into existence in 1948 as a voluntary association

The forces in N.Africa were 'British'. Other non-imperial units served voluntarily with the British Forces and were equipped, rationed and paid by them. Such units were: the Free French (Gen. LeClerc) and units from Poland etc.

Not to use the term 'British' in this historical context looks like 'PC' at work, same with the idea that offence is caused (as referred to above) I've been to most of these countries and there is no offence whatever. 86.194.54.35 (talk) 21:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC) bruce


I think you'll find that use of "British Commonwealth" is wrong. Although founded in the 1920s, it then only included the (independent) predominantly white Dominions (Canada, Newfoundland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa). This excluded India and Rhodesia, both of which had units in the 8th Army. Also, correctly speaking, the Ghurkas, coming from Nepal, were/ are neither British nor Indian. The use of "Empire" has been used to include all such states, but recognition of the part that was played by all states would be appropriate and add to the information. Although the Greek element was small (a battalion?), it maintained Greek status as a belligerent and the Poles provided a highly effective and motivated division. Just my two penn'orth. ("Allied" is wholly accurate, just as it is in relation to Italy and Northern Europe.) Folks at 137 17:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
My 2 cents: In my references, "Allied" is commonly used when speaking of big-picture stuff like "Allied victory..." and "British", "American", "Russian" are used when describing particular Allied armies. The Allied army involved is almost universally called the "British Eighth Army", not the "British Commonwealth's Eighth Army". While it is valuable to mention the composition of the troops under British command, I think common usage should prevail here.--Toms2866 02:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I have 2 cents too: I hate seeing AIF forces referred to as British but I believe the army is referred to as the British 8th Army. It was comprised of commonwealth and british forces, but its named british. Thats my view anyhow.... But please can't we use the term Allied where appropriate? It was an allied offensive after all, not a british commonwealth offensive. The allied victory in the battle oif the coral sea isnt confusing for brits even though there were no british forces there, why should americans have trouble with it in this instance? aussietiger 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
It just comes about because (depending on context) British is shorthand for so much including inhabitants of the British Isles, UK citizens and in this case may mean British Empire (though by 1930s more the Commonwealth). British 8th Army is more a convention to avoid getting it mixed up with all the other 8th Armies. GraemeLeggett 15:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone provide a reference of the numbers of Free French, Greek and Polish forces involved? I think we need some standard of how many troops have to be involved (in a ratio basis) for a nation to be listed. Oberiko 11:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Can't find exact numbers, but (E&OE): Greeks about a battalion; Free French - a division, I think; Poles, confusing - 2nd Carpathian Brigade in North Africa augmented by between 115,000 and 160,000 released from the USSR ("Anders' Army) in time for the Italian campaign. The Poles stayed with the 8th Army in North Africa and through Italy. I'll keep looking. Folks at 137 16:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at the Military History Wikiproject to try and reach a standard on this issue. Oberiko 17:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Was any consensus reached, anywhere? There's just been another change to this. Folks at 137 19:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The consensus was, in a nutshell, since WWII battles had many national forces lumped into groups, that we should use the groups if the nationalities is to big. ie, we'd say "8th Army" instead of "UK", "NZ", "AUS" etc.
I suppose we could apply the same thing here and say "8th Army victory", but that doesn't read very well. Oberiko 21:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we get rid of the references to "Commonwealth" forces then? This is an anachronism, "Empire" is better. British victory seems alright, although I tend to think that "Allied victory" is more in line with other WWII battle infoboxes. Then again, some American victories which used other nations' troops have been put down as "American victory", this is definitely something the military history project should try to standardise.Chrisfow 16:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of battle

Is there an order of battle page? MegasAllexandros 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

Can we get some citation on the infobox figures? Oberiko 16:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photograph

Why does the only illustration have to be spoilt by saying "this was staged"? There must be many photos not in that category! A large proportion of those taken during WWI were the same, but are rarely acknowledged as such, and it doesn't improve anything by having it. Peter Shearan 09:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good thing. More information never hurts, this is an encyclopdia. Oberiko 10:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AN ITALIAN FRONT WITH GERMAN SUPPORT

North Africa wasn`t a "German" front but an Italian front with German support. In El Alamein fought 54,000 Italians with 279 tanks and 50,000 Germans with 211 tanks. The German troops did belong to two Italian Army-Corps: the 21. A.C. in the North and the 10. A.C. in the South. The name "Afrika-Korps" for germans and Italians is wrong. When the 8th British Army did attack, "Herr Rommel" was in Germany, in vacations. The Italian generals Nebbia and Navarrini had to face Montgomery`s attack! The defeat of El Alamein was only secondarily a German "defeat". First of all ita was an Italian defeat. Italy lost the war at El Alamein, Germany at Stalingrade, Japan in Guadalcanal.

Numbers don't tell the whole story, especially in this campaign. There is no doubt that defeat of the German element of the Axis forces in North Africa was the only thing that counted. The Italian army on its own was close to worthless, and so the battle *was* primarily a German defeat. This is not intended to disparage the Italian solders, who generally did their duty, but were hobbled by terrible leadership and an incompetent regime. But the fact is that from the time the German Africa Korps (DAK) entered the campaign until the end, destruction of the DAK was really the only worthwhile objective for the Allies. Likewise the command arrangements that placed Italians in higher command positions was more diplomacy than actual operational reality. To take an allied example, Alexander was "in command" of allied ground forces in Sicily, yet his influence on the battle was pretty close to zero. DMorpheus 18:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

EGYPT: AN ITALIAN FRONT, LIKE PALESTINE (1918) WAS A TURKISH FRONT.

Dear reader, you think only after a MILITARY point of view. But you have to think POLITICALLY, too. Palestine in 1918 is considered a Turkish front, though the Turkish armies were rather weak and the German Asien-Korps were strong, just like the Afrika-Korps in 1942. Nevertheless everybody considers Palestine a Turkish front because the aim of General Allenby was the defeat of Turkey. So, the aim of Montgomery was the defeat of Italy. He himself said this when he landed in the "toe" of Italy in September 1943. Indeed Roosevelt`s slogan "Germany first" was wrong. His slogan should be "Italy first" because he attacked Sicily in 1943 and the Normandy in 1944.The Italian generals Nebbia and Navarrini weren`t formal commanders but the commanders of the 21th and of 10th Army Corps. Were the Italian generals incompetent? Well, think on Clark in Monte Cassino, think on Lucas in Anzio. Competent generals? A rarity!

Is this a parody? Think Politically?! Political power grows from the barrel of a gun - especially in war. Show me a successful Italian campaign against the Allies. Greece? Just as well the Germans intervened. Ethiopia? Must be joking. North Africa? Well it wasn't the Italians that stopped the British advance. Malta? Three old biplanes saw off the Regia Aeronautica. The submarine war? Doenitz couldn't get rid of Italian subs quick enough - they couldn't even report sightings and the weather. The best Italian force was the Regia Marina and even then the political leaders messed up - no oil reserves, no air cover. Italians had to believe in their cause and junior partner in the Axis was not it. Defeat the Germans and you defeated the Italians. BTW, please sign your contributions. Folks at 137 22:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

THE ITALIAN ROLE IN WWII (answer)

Dear Mr. "Folks", I will answer by a list of facts only. -The Italian air attack to Malta (June 11, 1940) opened the hostilities against Great Britain and extended WWII to the Mediterranean Sea and to Africa. So Italy is important (if we want in a negative sense)just for this action. -The attack to Greece was an humiliation for Mussolini just like the Soviet attack to Finland was an humiliation for Stalin. The reason for the Italian failure was boorish racism: Greek were considered "an inferior race" and a few of Italian divisions were able to defeat Greece. Unfortunately for Italy the Greeks had many -and stronger (3 infantry regiments instead of 2)- divisions. Nevertheless the war against Italy bled Greece and when the Germans attacked (1941)the Greek Army were already exhausted. Also Hitler recognized this fact. -The defeat in El Alamein was first an Italian defeat because (Ciano-Ribbentrop Agreement of 1940) in case of a German-Italian victory in WWII, Egypt had to become an Italian protectorate. This is the reason because I say we should think politically, too. -Italian victories without the Germans? Menton and Lanslebourg (June 1940), Kassala, Kurmuk, Gallabat in Sudan (July 1940), Moyale (Kenya) (July 1940), British Somaliland (August 1940), Buna Oasis (Kenya) (September 1940, Sidi-el-Barrani (Egypt) (September 1940). In Russia (September 1941) the Italian divisions took 10,000 Soviet prisoners. -the Italian submarines sunk during the war 900,000 Tonn.(568,573 Tonn in the Atlantic and in the Indian Ocean). Among the victimes the Ocean Liner "Empress of Canada" in 1943. The Italians sunk 2 British battleships (later repaired) and sunk 6 cruisers (among them the heavy cruiser "Manchester" in 1942), 15 destroyers, 49 submarines. -In East Africa the lasted 17 months and saw about 60 battles. The battles of Keren, Amba Alagi, Kulquaber, and Gondar were very hard. Please respect -at least- the British Fallen. An Italian Guerrilla warfare lasted, after the formal end on November 27, 1940, until May / October 1943 (see internet "La guerriglia italiana in Africa Orientale"). About 7,000 scattered Italian soldiers fought this guerrilla hoping for a Japanese help or for an Italian-German help from Egypt. -The Royal Italian Air Force attacked Gibraltar 14 times. The Air Force of the RSI 1 time. This was "folks"!

Point remains: in North Africa, it was the DAK that had to be beaten. Evidence? Look at Operation Compass. Graziani's 250,000 strong 10th Army had failed against the 36,000 local British garrison and after 10 weeks the British had captured 130,000 Italians (losing 2000) and captured Cyrenaica. The rest of your points may be factual, but need context and this is not the forum - except to comment that there may have been 14 attacks on Gibraltar, but there was only one on Taranto. Impact not numbers. Folks at 137 09:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] INSTEAD OF "GERMAN DEFEAT", AT LEAST "GERMAN-ITALIAN" DEFEAT

At least the last sentence of this article should be changed: instead of "German defeat" and "end of the German expansion" let`s write "German-Italian defeat" and "end of the German-Italian expansion". Also the name "German Panzer Army Afrika" isn`t correct. In Italy this army is called "ACIT - Armata Corazzata Italo-Tedesca". Italians never fought for "German expansion"!

Indeed it was the other way around, one of the stated aims of the German Army in Africa was to aid the re-conquering of Italian Africa. At this time, the DAK was known as the German-Italian African Army or some-such. I will look it up, make sure of it, and change it. Chrisfow 16:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When is a Tank a Tank, and when is it a Panzer?

In this article in the stats is the mention of "530 tanks(only 230 panzers)". Pray tell me what the 300 tanks are that aren't panzers? I always thought tanks in this context were panzers and all panzers were tanks. Wallie 23:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be that of the 530 tanks, 230 were German made (Panzer I - IV) and the remaining 300 were either Italian or captured. Still, unless there's a source, it will have to be questioned (and likely removed). Oberiko 18:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
That's right. Panzers are the German tanks, and the rest are Italian. The distinction is important, because most of the Italian tanks were obsolete and unreliable Fiat M13/40s. Various sources give different figures for the Axis tank forces before the battle:
  • Michael Carver, El Alamein: 220 panzers, 339 Italian tanks: total 559
  • B. H. Liddell Hart, History of the Second World War: 242 panzers, 280 Italian tanks: total 522
  • H. G. Von Esebeck, Afrikanische Schiksalsjahre: 230 panzers, 300 Italian tanks: total 530
This the source i used as it was closer to the previous estimate given.Raoulduke47 17:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

My 2 cents on this is, is to use the term "tank". There British, German, Italian tanks etc Panzer basically means "tank" so to avoid confusion why use the term unless of course referring to a specific model i.e. the Valentine, the M13, the Panzer III etc --EnigmaMcmxc 20:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source of quote

"The desert, quivering in the heat haze, ..." (long quote) No source is given next to this - is it still from Phillips, quoted (deservedly) in the account of Kidney Ridge earlier in the entry? Regards to all, Notreallydavid 15:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Role of ULTRA

This article makes no mention of how full access to Nazi radio messages had a decisive impact on the battle of El Alamein. 1. Practically every supply ship leaving Italy for North Africa was sunk, leaving Rommel desparately short of fuel and other supplies. 2. Rommel was required to report freqently and in detail to the Nazi High Command. Montgomery knew in advance his enemy's situation and battle plans. In particular, Montgomery knew how well his deception operations were working. Mikeg3 12:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Knowing the enemy's plans or situation and defeating them are two different things. Certainly Ultra gave the allies an advantage, but there are many other factors in every campaign and it is not self-evident that Ultra was "decisive". DMorpheus 13:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 116,000 men

Is possible to know how many of those 116,000 mens were italians, and how many germans? And is possible to know haw many were italian colonials troups (ascari)? Thanks

54,000 Germans and 62,000 Italians. I have not heard of any Italian colonial troops in this area. IIRC, they were mostly deployed in Ethiopia and Eritrea. Raoulduke47 14:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. i put it on the article


Colonial troops in North Africa would be the Lybians, iirc there was at least 2 divisions during Compass but i think they were wiped out, not sure if Lybians made up any of the then present Italian units.

[edit] Casualties?

Article contridicts self. In summary at top, it says 13000 allied casualties. Yet, just above the "aftermath" section, it says 23,500. Very confusing, please clarify or change.

[edit] Copyright assertion

User:Cassandravivian has just posted the following text on this article:

SOME ONE HAS TAKEN MY TWO BOOKS ON THE WESTERN DESERT OF EGYPT AND, NEARLY WORD FOR WORD, HAS PUBLISHED THEM HERE. THIS IS AN ABOMINATION. THE BOOKS ARE ALAMEIN. TRADE ROUTES ENTERPRISES. THE WESTERN DESERT OF EGYPT, THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY IN CAIRO PRESS. 2000, 2007 I WANT THE NAME, EMAIL ADDRESS, SNAIL MAIL ADDRESS, AND ANY OTHER INFORMATION YOU CAN PROVIDE. I HAVE NOT CHECKED THE OTHER SECTIONS OF THE BATTLE FOR NORTH AFRICA ON WIKIPEDIA, BUT, IF PUT HERE BY THE SAME PERSON, MY GUESS IS THE SAME PROBLEM WILL EXIST THERE. CASSANDRA VIVIAN ==

I'm unsure how best to handle this, as I don't own the books in question (I just spotted this on the list of recent changes). As a consequence, I am posting on the user's talk page, advising the user to look at Wikipedia:Request for immediate removal of copyright violation. In the meantime, as I cannot assess the extent of the problem, if it indeed exists, I am reverting the user's edits on the article itself whilst this issue is investigated. If anyone else has any insights, please do post them here -- thanks! – Stuart. (Sjb90 | talk) 15:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Place names

People can i ask, but is it possible you can look up how to spell some of these place names i.e. Tell el Aqqaqir

I have had to replace many completely misspelled versions of this example in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnigmaMcmxc (talk • contribs) 20:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freyberg

To my understanding he played an important role in the battle via planning and execution a bit more then the other division or corps commanders etc

I know its a small thing but this was the reasoning i had behind placing him in the commanders list under Monty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnigmaMcmxc (talk • contribs) 12:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I rather agree with Kirrages on this point. Writing the name of a corps commander in the infobox implies a split in Montgomery's command. --Raoulduke47 21:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


Yea i guess that makes sence, ok am good with that. Dont want to sow confusion. Cheers --EnigmaMcmxc 10:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NZ Official History

I think we need to clear this up, were does this title belong?

The book as far as I understand is out of print and is now only available as an online document (hosted by the kiwi government iirc).

Where I have used it as a reference in the article I was working from the online document and not an actual printed copy of the book.

So where does it belong?

A: In the external links section since it is only an external document.

B: In the sources section, with the details set out like the other books and a link to the online document.

C: In both sections as it currently stands.

--EnigmaMcmxc 10:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It should definitely be in the sources section because convention states that short references in the footnote section should always relate to a full document citation in the sources or references section. I therefore always fully cite books and websites (even if not a book) in the sources section if there is a specific reference in the footnotes to it and sometimes even if not, if it has formed an important part of my understanding of the topic. The fact that the book is published online is a red herring: it is a faithful representation of the original (down to page numbers) so one is reading the book regardless of the media in which it comes. In this context it's interesting to note that the {{cite book}} template includes a url perameter to allow for books published on the web.
The External Links section seems to be used as a sort of "Other reading" section. I have in the past deleted an entry here if it is already in the sources section but for some reason it has proved controversial. Frankly a duplicate appearance in both sections is not the end of the world in my view, but the sources section is more important than the external links section. So I vote B or C. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


Fair enough, thanks for clearing this up for me! --EnigmaMcmxc 12:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italian casualties at Alamein

I see GeneralMesse has made an edit with an alternative number for Italian deaths. Very interesting. However, having read the referenced link I wonder if the number refers to the total Italian dead buried at the Italian war grave at Alamein which I believe holds the dead from a greater period than just the second battle. I'm not sure, because the article has been translated from Italian very poorly into English (using the babelfish website which is a very useful tool for simple translation and to get approximate meanings but is pretty useless in this case) and the meaning is not clear. Does anyone have a view on this (or a further supporting citation?). Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, there was two sets of casualties figures one from Playfair and one from Niall Barr I cant remember at the moment why I chose one over the other, perhaps it showed higher casualties. When I get home I will provide casualties figures from both books. Unfortunately they are the only ones I have on the battle.

On the plus side I work practically next to the library which has “War without Hate” and two other books called Alamein one by Stephen Bungay and the other by Jon Latimer (I put money down that most of the book is a copy and paste job from the Official History haha) so I will see what they quote for all losses and post them too. --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Barr figures:

States "British estimates, based on intercepts .... German Casulties .... Italian losses ammounted to 971 dead, 933 wounded and 15 552 captured."

states his source as WO201/439, TNA. Which is 8th Army claims up to 23:59 on 3rd November.

WO 201/439 in the National archives states this is reports of telephone conversations Oct-Nov '42.


Playfair states Italian captured by the 5th was 4'148 and by the 11th 22, 071 in referring to the German and Italian POWs he stated that the figures can be given with more certainly then perviously when he was talking about tank and planes losses etc

He does not appear to mention the dead and wounded for the German or Italians and only talks about the 8th Army personal losses which he also brakes down into percentages for each nationality which may be of use to note somewhere within the article:

8th Army losses by nationality:

British : 58% Australians: 22% New Zealanders: 10% South Africans: 6% Indian: 1% Other Allies: 3%

I checked out Stephen Bungay book yesterday and it doesnt appear to have any figures stated within the book on losses, War Without Hate was in another libaray acorss town along with the Latimer one and couldnt be assed to go see what they said haha

The Comando Supremo website states the following for losses:

"November 4 - Rommels Axis forces are forced to retreat from El Alamein. Italian soldiers withdraw on foot through the desert. Eventually 16,000 Italians are captured in 14 days. Rommel loses 32,000 men, 1,000 guns and 450 tanks. The Afrika Korps now only consists of 35 German tanks and almost 100 obsolete Italian tanks. British Commonwealth Forces lose 13,500 troops, but win in a decisive victory over the Axis Forces"

Rather bias and rather wrong so no good eh?


Kiwi Official History:

"The Axis casualty figures for the whole of October and November have been assessed as 12,900 Germans and 22,800 Italians, a total of 35,700. Of the 27,900 prisoners included in this total, more than "


The Rommel Papers: footnote by Bayerlein - "Italian troops (approximations only, figures cannot be guaranteed), 1,200 killed, 1,600 wounded, and 20,000 prisoners. (figures obtained from Offiziller Bericht des Oberkommandos Afrika.)"

Appears Rommell doesnt discuss losses himself and talks mostly about tank numbers etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnigmaMcmxc (talk • contribs) 18:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] captured and catualties

Nomally they not include captured as catualties.


Why it says casualites and losses, it covers both ;) --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tank Strength

Question here, Playfair states there was 1,029 tanks ready for action and i have provided this in the strength section with a footnote showing how that broke down, however in the footnote i have also noted that he stated there was 200 tanks available as replacements and up to and over 1000 tanks in the workshops.

The question is, should we leave the tank strength as it is with the footnote stating about all the ones in the workshops or note that the 8th Army tank strength was over 2000 tanks? --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

As it is. The interesting number is always for the atrength available for combat. The number in the workshop is of some interest however: for most of the Western Desert Campaign the Germans were much better at retrieving tanks (both their own and British) knocked out in battle and restoring them back into their combat formations. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 17:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] India

Should the combatant list, list her simpley as "India" or the "Indian Empire" as it currently is? Which was the politically correct term of the time? --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 7th Bersaglieri takes on Aussies riding British tanks on 28/10/1942

This NATO website http://www.nato.int/kfor/chronicle/2006/chronicle_09/chronicle_09.pdf clearly proves the 7th Bersaglieri Regiment fought till the last man on the night of 28/29 October 1942 and that only 20 wounded survived. I suppose approximately 100 wounded Bersaglieri died overnight because of their wounds and that another 200 or 300 were crushed alive manning anti-tank guns by the advancing British tanks or shot, grenaded or bayonetted to death by the supporting Australian infantry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Generalmesse (talk • contribs) 01:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


What the article states and what you typed (article opens up at home, but didnt in work - i applogise for removing it) is that all died bar 20 who were captured. It doesnt imply as you stated they somehow managed to escape fromthe butchers. Hyphosising on how they died and the way you wrote it up is somewhat inapproabriate. They fought corregously to allow there comrades to excape, that should be noted.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Appreciation of High Standard of Work

This article represents a very high standard of work and research. Everything comes together as it should and the statistics, chronology, geography and sequencing of events, together with the style of reporting, indicate a professional historian and/or a retired military officer with staff experience in writing operational orders/analyses. Congratulations are certainly due here. Some small observations: the selected bibliography could be broadened (some contemporary german sources would be useful) and references to the British Commonwealth could be tidied up. The brigade details could also be clarified (eg 'Durham Light Infantry' and the 'Royal Sussex Regiment'). There is more information available now about v.Thoma. If the original compiler of the article would like to send me a message, I will take a look at my material here and forward what I have. otherwise: very very good. and thanks. bruce (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC) Bruce

The source section is for only the books and other media which have been used to create the article. Its now becoming somewhat frowned upon to have massive lists of books on the article which have not been used.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Further_Reading.2FBibliography
For more information.
You have confused me regarding clarifying the brigade details, what exactly do you mean?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Key for maps

Maybe I just haven't spotted the link for this, but it seems a shame for someone to go to all the effort of making such detailed maps only to render most of the detail useless to readers by the omission of a key. Can anyone tell me what the crosses, circles and other symbols attached to each regiment mean? Drumandbeast (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean like on this map? link

Above the flags: X = Brigade XX = Division

The cross through the flags means infantry divisions, the oval means Armoured Divisions and a cross with an oval is mechanized infantry (although the units stated as such on the maps are techically more motorised infantry then mechanized infantry)

They are map symbols used by NATO: APP-6a, paticular the "Common Combinations" section

--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)