Talk:Sea shanty

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November 20, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted

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[edit] Roll the Old Chariot Along

I've never seen anything to suggest that "Roll the Old Chariot Along" is a "spiritual." Please cite a source if you can show otherwise.

The source is right there. Just click on the link. According to the Library of Congress:
"Roll the Old Chariot Along" has direct connections with black folk music of the nineteenth century, appearing in most of the standard collections of spirituals (Dett, pp. 192-93; Fenner and Rathbun, pp. 106-7; Johnson, pp. 110-11). Sandburg published a variant (pp. 196-97), and it has also been noted by collectors of shanties, including Hugill (pp. 150-51) and Doerflinger (pp. 49-50, 357). A version of this was sent to Gordon by an Adventure reader (3758) and he collected another text in California (Cal. 243). There were many black sailors on the crews of nineteenth-century vessels. They brought with them traditions of work songs, and their songs, religious and secular, were usually rhythmic and thus suited for the many kinds of gang labor needed on the big sailing ships. Gordon devoted a chapter in Folk-Songs of America to "Negro work songs from Georgia" (pp. 13-19).

[edit] response

I think the difficulty here is the wide variety of versions of shanties. I did turn up my copy of Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas. At p. 121-122 of the 1987 edition, he states the following about "Roll the Old Chariot":

Doerflinger says that it is based on the words of a Salvation Army revivalist hymn and that the tune is a Scottish reel. In N. I. White's American Negro Folk-Songs are several reports of this song. One he gives from the Dismal Swamp in North Carolina was sung by whites at corn-shuckings and log-rollings. Also he gives a version sung by students of Trinity College in 1911 and 1912 as a 'pep' song at baseball games. The chorus is slightly different since it gives 'we won't drag on behind' for the final line. Also it gives the sinner, drunkard, gambler, harlot, and devil as all 'being in the way' and the idea being to 'stop and take him in', although in the case of the 'devil' we 'run it over him.' On page 300 he give s Negro version in which instead of a chariot it is a 'golden wheel' that is doing the rolling. It seems without doubt that the shanty is of Negro origin. Doerflinger gives a version in which his shantyman sings the words of 'Roll the Golden Chariot' to the tune of Drunken Sailor. In the Oxford Song Book a sailor version is given with 'Hot souse', 'fresh sea-pie', and 'a glass of whiskey hot' being the things which 'wouldn't do us any harm.'

That said, Hugill's version, unlike the linked version, does not mention the devil or rolling over him. To say that Hugill's version is based on a spiritual is about as far as I'd be willing to go, not that it is a spiritual. On the other hand, the linked version in the context of the quote above is more like the "spiritual" version of the song, and I agree that it qualifies.

[edit] more

Okay, I located my copy of Hugil's Shanties and Sailors' Songs. At p. 204 of the 1969 edition he makes the observation that the "on shore" version of the song had a religious theme (and therefore could be considered a spiritual).

[edit] still more

Okay, located my copy of Doerflinger. He has two versions of the lyrics, the one most similar to the one in the clip sung to the tune normally thought of as "Drunken Sailor" and the other with has the "glass of whiskey etc. wouldn't do us any harm" lyrics (he doesn't give the tune for that one). The former lyrics were collected from Richard Maitland, who apparently was a New Yorker of Scottish descent. According to Doerflinger, the song is a parody of a spiritual adopted by the Salvation Army.

The chorus and first verse for the Spiritual/Salvation Army (not the shanty version) are (per Mudcat):

We'll roll, we'll roll the chariot along,
We'll roll, we'll roll the chariot along,
We'll roll, we'll roll the chariot along,
And we won't drag on behind.

If the sinner is in the way,
Why, we stop and take him on,
If the sinner is in the way,
Why, we stop and take him on,
If the sinner is in the way,
Why, we stop and take him on,
And we won't drag on behind.

The version sung on the attached clip has "And we'll all hang on behind" instead of "And we won't drag on behind," according to Doerflinger, Maitland said this is part of the parody, the sailors are giving themselves a free ride in their version. Note also that the verse sung in the clip is about running over the devil, normally that would be the last verse in the religious version, it would be preceded by verses about kindly picking up drunkards, gamblers, etc as you see above.

The linked clip seems to have the parody lyrics, but the tune is slightly different from the tune given by Hugil (and obviously very different from the tune given by Doerflinger). My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that the lyrics are part of what makes a song a "spiritual." Someone should track down the other references cited by the Library of Congress and make corrections to the description on both this page and the "spiritual" page if the other references make the source of the lyrics and tune any clearer.

[edit] Featured Article candidacy

High fives all around! Now, what needs to be done to really make this article sparkle? I've added a couple of relevant quotations at the top of the page. Nightsky 20:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Anonymous editor 67.170.224.208 has changed the spellings in the article from "shanty" and "shantyman" to "chanty" and "chantyman" twice now. The information that I have is that "shanty" and especially "shantyman" are the preferred spellings. See. eg:
Doerflinger, Shantymen and Shantyboys,
Hugill, Shanties from the Seven Seas,
Hugill, Shanties and Sailors' Songs, etc.
Similarly, an unscientific Google search gives about 500 hits for "chantyman" vs about 200,000 for "shantyman." The S spelling is the more common spelling. Therefore, I am reverting this back to the "S" spellings. If 67.170.224.208 has other information, he/she should post it here before changing this page again and perhaps we all can some to some kind of agreement first. Crypticfirefly 17:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. All the sources I have prefer "shanty", and "chantey" is listed as an alternate spelling in the first line of the article, so there can't be much confusion. Let's keep the spelling as it is. Nightsky 23:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plymouth Town the oldest?

In a Renaissance Faire a cappella context, I came across the notion that the call & response "Plymouth Town" (there dwelt a maid) is the oldest recorded shanty, at least in English. As time allows, I'll see if I can chase down some cites, or someone else could get there first... Just plain Bill 13:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. Are you refering to the song that also has the words "In Amsterdam their lived a maid, mark well what I do say!/In Amsterdam there lived a maid, and she was mistress of her trade./I'll go no more a rovin' with you fair maid . . ." Hugill gives the title of the song as "A Rovin'." In Shanties of the Seven Seas, he writes that the earliest book in English with the lyrics to shanties is Complaint of Scotland published in 1549, which gives several hauling songs. There is no music, however. As for "A Rovin'" he notes that some people claim that the words were taken from a song in the 1640 play The Rape of Lucrece, but he is not convinced of this having compared them. He also reports that "some say the tune [itself] is Elizabethan." In all, he cites three shanties commonly held to be 16th century: "Haul the Bowline," "A Rovin'," and "Whiskey Johnny." He says that there is little or no evidence for "Haul the Bowline" (though he says it was a more important line at that time than it was later), that there is not enough evidence for "Whiskey Johnny," and that "A Rovin'" may be of that era but as a land-based folk song only rather than a shanty. Crypticfirefly 02:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Men may leave all gramys That seylen for St Jamys"?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.91.37 (talk) 02:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] mistake?

"Blow the Man Down" is listed as an example under "long-haul" and "short-drag." It can't be both, can it? Foxmulder 15:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

And if it can, some explanation of how would be nice. Foxmulder 15:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The explanation is that these are folk songs, and who is to say that "Blow the Man Down" was not used as a "short-drag" shanty by someone, somewhere. Any given shanty might be adjusted in tempo and even tune to fit a given task. That said, "Blow the Man Down" is normally categorized as a "long-haul" shanty, and it has one of the usual characteristics of a long-haul shanty: it tells a story over multiple verses. I've made the change, if someone disagrees perhaps we can discuss it. Crypticfirefly 01:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whaling song

How do whaling songs fit into this schema, more info required. - FrancisTyers · 09:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dana Citiation

I've removed the first Dana example as it references sailors "singing out" at their lines. Though the wording here does not make it quite clear, to sing out on shipboard is to call out on land. E.g., "sing out when that halyard's fast". Czrisher 02:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sea shanty singer's connection with 'The Simpsons'

Hi

I have recently developed an interest in sea shanties and I am wondering you could help me answer a question. Does anyone know the connection between a noted sea shanty singer and sailing captain and the title of an episode of 'The Simpsons'?

Thanks very much, Ghfj007 19:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tune to "Boney"

Anyone know it? I haven't been able to find recordings of the song anywhere. I've just been singing it to the tune of South Australia. Wobblies 18:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason you can't sing it to "South Australia." (That's the folk tradition, right?) But if you want to hear it another way there is a recording of the song as sung by Alan Mills from his 1957 album "Songs of the Sea" available from Smithsonian Global Sound. It is pretty close to the ways I've heard it sung before. The Smithsonian page has a long enough free sample that you can get the general idea of the tune. Crypticfirefly 01:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

As children we sang - well scuse me, but in jig time and in C

G F# G A G E C

G - A - F

F E D C B D G

G - G - E

[edit] Another side with allot of shanty lyrics

http://www.jsward.com/shanty/

Just though I should mention it incase any of you wanted to know..

Luredreier 23:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)