Talk:Sea cucumber

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a project to improve all Japan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Japan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
Japan To-do:
WikiProject Animals
 Sea cucumber is within the scope of WikiProject Animals, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to animals and zoology. For more information, visit the project page.
Animals Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject Animals To-do:
Marine life
Portal
 This article is part of WikiProject Marine life, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use resource on marine life. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This project is an offshoot of the WikiProject Tree of Life.
Marine life To do:

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sea cucumber article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Hong Kong

can i take this to hong kong —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.17.179.107 (talk • contribs) . 10:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No tildes

somebody didn't add their tildes...

"Sea cucumber as an aphrodesiac for provascic monkeys

and medicine" does not even mention anything related to medicine.

172.192.158.224 07:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The other day I was in a petting acquarium and I touched a sea cucumber and I think the name is deceptive. A more accurate label for this character would be a sea poo or a millipoo.

Thankyou —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.65.181.102 (talk • contribs) . 22:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Most sea cucumbers are shaped like a cucumber - how they feel is nothing do with it. The name is not deceptive at all. ----

[edit] Breathing through Bottom

I have added a link to http://www.fegi.ru/prim/sea/golot.htm - a page on Holothurians. The fact itself is as interesting as isn't sounds due to the radial symmetry of a Holothurian along the mouth-anus and the positioning of the opening of their "water lungs".Liam Mason 03:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pets?

I love these fascinating animals! Can you keep them as pets?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.52.60.61 (talk • contribs) . 16:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral POV

The Food and Medicine section began with "Sea cucumber is one of the strangest foodstuffs in Chinese cuisine." I'm going to say that this doesn't adhere to a neutral point of view. I've removed it. --justing magpie 18:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

...I think that the entire Food and Medicine section needs to be redone. I'm going to attempt to locate sources for those facts and maybe streamline the whole thing. Feel free to assist... --justing magpie 18:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Free-swimming forms

Could really use some of the free-swimming forms. I'll grab a picture of that old German diageram they have at my Uni. Adam Cuerden talk 06:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Update: Can't ascertain the copyright, curse it. Adam Cuerden talk 15:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From former "Bêche-de-mer" article

For reference and addition to this article:

Bêche-de-mer is a kind of large sea cucumber (genus Holothuria) that is eaten in China, Japan, and Indonesia. It is dried for preservation purposes and has to be rehydrated by boiling and soaking in water for several days for the sea cucumber to absorb the liquid back. It is mainly used as an ingredient in soup or stew. In Malaysia, it is called trepang (Malay trīpang) , in Chinese it is "hai sum", the Japanese call it "namako" and in the Philippines it is called "balatan". The trade in Trepang, between Macassans seafarers and the aborigines of Arnhem Land, to supply the markets of Southern China is the first recorded example of trade between the inhabitants of the Australian continent and their Asian neighbours.
Holothuroidea is a class of marine animals. The largest American species is Holothuria floridana, which abounds just below low-water mark on the Florida reefs.

···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Farmed or wild caught?

Are sea cucumbers farmed? If so, how, and on what scale? Kent Wang 15:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Taste

"...but may be unappetising on its own", sea cucumbers are very flavorful on its own. If you never had one, I suggest you try some at a local Chinese restraunt. Lightblade 22:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, some tastes awful too, and can even be poisonous. The poison can sometimes have hallucinogenic properties. Rhynchosaur 03:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Citation needed"

Here are the links and quotes for those who are not aware of the facts or able to find sources;

"Ossicles in the body wall are few or absent in larger animals (Rat-tailed sea cucumber)". Link: http://www.answers.com/topic/rat-tailed-sea-cucumber?cat=technology (By the way, I have read elsewere as well that some sea cucumber lacks ossicles, so it shouldn't be impossoble to find more links for those who are really interested)

Ossicles = The numerous small plates that constitute the echinoderm skelton. These ossicles are composed of a form of calcium carbonate known as calcite. Link: http://www.palaeos.com/Invertebrates/Echinoderms/Echinodermata.Glossary.html

About biomass in deep sea:

"In some deep ocean trenches sea cucumbers (abyssal holothuroids) are so prevalent that they make up around 90% of the total biomass for that trench." Link: http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/fieldcourses05/PapersMarineEcologyArticles/SeaCucumbers.html

"These depths consist of geologically less stable and inclined substrata in oceanic trenches that extend to 36,000 ft (10,970 m). Nevertheless, in these regions holothuroids dominate the benthic fauna in terms of weight of living organisms." Link: http://www.answers.com/topic/holothuroidea-sea-cucumbers-biological-family?cat=technology (again, I'm sure more links supporting this can be found)

From the same link:

Holothuroids appear to have evolved perhaps 480 mya from a poorly known group of extinct burrowing echinoderms called ophiocystioids, which resembled spineless sea urchins with a reduced number of large, plated tube feet. The oldest described body fossil is of Palaeocucumaria hunsrueckiana from the Lower Devonian Period 395 mya. This species is unique among known holothuroids in having plated tentacles, a feature that suggests in part a link to the ophiocystioids. Holothuroids continued to diversify during the Paleozoic Era, when members assigned to the orders Apodida, Elasipodida, Dendrochirotida, and Dacytlochirotida first appeared.

Holothuroids are either deposit feeders or suspension feeders. Approximately 33 percent of species are suspension feeders, nearly all of them within Dendrochirotida.

APODIDA. Footless sea cucumbers. The order contains approximately 269 species in 32 genera and three families. Tentacles are digitate, pinnate, or, in some small species, simple. Respiratory trees are absent. Tube feet are completely absent. The calcareous ring is low and bandlike, without posterior projections. The body wall is very thin and often transparent. These sea cucumber are found in both shallow and deep water.

ELASIPODIDA. Deep-sea sea cucumbers. The order contains approximately 141 species in 24 genera and five families. Tentacles are shield shaped and used in shoveling sediment. Respiratory trees are present. The calcareous ring is without posterior projections. With the exception of one family, Deimatidae, the body wall is soft to gelatinous. All forms live in deep water.

ASPIDOCHIROTIDA. Shield-tentacle sea cucumbers. There are approximately 340 species in 35 genera and three families in this order. Tentacles are shield shaped, that is, flattened and pad-like. Respiratory trees are present. The calcareous ring is without posterior projections. The body wall is generally soft and pliant. Most forms live in shallow water, although one family is restricted to the deep sea.

MOLPADIIDA. Rat-tailed sea cucumbers. Approximately 95 species compose 11 genera and four families in this order. Tentacles are digitate to simple. Respiratory trees are present. The calcareous ring may have short posterior projections. The body wall is generally soft and pliant. Most forms live in relatively shallow water, although one family is restricted to the deep sea.

DENDROCHIROTIDA. Suspension-feeding sea cucumbers. The order contains approximately 550 species in 90 genera and seven families. Tentacles are highly branched. Respiratory trees are present. Some members have a calcareous ring composed of numerous small pieces or have long posterior extensions. These animals have muscles for retracting the oral introvert. In a few species, the body is hardened from enlarged plate-like ossicles and is U shaped. These sea cucumbers live either attached to hard bottoms or burrow in soft sediment. Most species live in shallow water.

DACTYLOCHIROTIDA. U-shaped sea cucumbers. The order contains approximately 35 species in seven genera and three families. Tentacles are simple or have a few small digits. Respiratory trees are present. The calcareous ring is without posterior projections. These sea cucumbers have muscles for retracting the oral introvert. All members have a rigid body encased in enlarged flattened ossicles. The body usually is U shaped. All members live burrowed in soft sediment. Most live in deep water.


Bendzh said "it doesn't even mention endoskeletons on that page, the burden of evidence is on you."

Well, what's the idea with a reference then, if people are not able to find the information the damn links are supposed to support?

English is not my mother language, and I have never lived in an English speaking country. I know it well enough to use it in so-called "plain English", but users manuals in another language are a little more compliacated, I even have problems in my own language. So I don't know how to make references, even if I have tried a couple of times, so I do the next best think, I put out links. So for those who know how to do it, it really shouldn't take long time to fix. I assumed those who were hanging aorund here were actually interested in the subject, but maybe I was wrong. 193.217.195.253 06:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

That still doesn't support the claim that "endoskeletons are absent in some species" as the page states "microscopic phosphatic bodies [...] replace the calcareous ossicles as the animal ages." So the endoskeleton is very much present in younger individuals of this species. You may change the text to say they are "absent in older individuals of at least one species". And I'll even fix the link, but if you want to be taken seriously, register as a user. Right now you're just an anonymous number, which is why you must excuse my lack of patience. Bendž|Ť 09:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I would add that the policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence means that you must provide citations of sources that directly support any material that you want to add or keep in an article. Your comments such as, "it shouldn't be impossoble[sic] to find more links for those who are really interested" and "I'm sure more links supporting this can be found" are not compatible with the policy. Another point (the one that Bendzh is making) is that, while you must not copy from sources, but put the material into your own words, you cannot add material that is not directly supported by the cited sources. -- Donald Albury 10:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


Bendzh: Well, the problem is that the internet is far from perfect, no matter what words I'm using in the search engines, it is the same sources that comes up over and over again. I often find sentences like "Since most echinoderms possess some form of calcareous skeleton, we have a very good fossil record of the evolution of this group, although many aspects of their evolution are far from clear". It says MOST echinoderms, in other words not all. But why do they never mention these exeptions? Another quote; "The species usually have an exterior calcareous skeleton, or shell, made of many pieces, and often covered with spines, to which the name." They USUALLY have a skeleton, which mean they don't ALWAYS have it.

Then we have the deep sea holothurians, which often have very gelatinous bodies. Because of the carbonate chemistry of the deep sea, calcium carbonate, which among other things makes up the skeleton of sea cucumber, will start to dissolve if you go deep enough. If this also goes for the calcium carbonate still inside living organisms, I don't know. But jelly like bodies, which often are transperant, can't have much of a skeleton to speak of.

Donald Albury: I didn't used "it shouldn't be impossoble.." as an argument, just as a comment for those interested that it is probably some material out there waiting to be found if they are able to find it, instead of saying there is nothing more out there except from what I have already mentioned. Not only on the internet, but in good old books as well. And I always use my own words as much as possible when adding something to an article, but when simply quoting in a forum where I posts the links as well, I can't see what harm it could do. In this case, I included something extra when the source first was mentioned, so that others may change the article if they wish, since it looks like I have to wait till I have learned a little more before continuing. 193.217.195.77 03:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Listen, the truth is I don't know twiddley twat about these sea vegetables and I'm not interested in engaging in speculation with you. On the other hand I'm not opposed to the idea of entirely non-calcareous holothurians, but please read WP:OR to see what we do here. Bendž|Ť 09:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The Internet is not the best place to look for reliable sources about anything. Printed sources are, in general, more reliable, more thorough, and certainly more permanent than web sources. I suspect you will need to consult text books and/or appropriate journals to find references for holothurians lacking skeletons. -- Donald Albury 11:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


They can be found in great numbers on the deep sea floor, where they make up a considerable part of the animal biomass.[citation needed] The body of deep water holothurians is made of a gelatinous tissue whith unique properties that makes the animals able to control their own buoyancy, making it possible for them to both living on the ocean floor or floating over it to move to new locations with a minimum of energy.

[edit] Buoyancy

If someone are interested in the link about the buoyancy of deep water sea cucumbers, here it is: http://www.oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/07mexico/logs/june18/june18.html "Deep holothurians have very gelatinous bodies. Freshly collected by the JASON, the bodies are quite stiff and strong. An amazing property of these holothuroid gels is that the animal seems able to adjust its buoyancy at will. Sometimes they float off bottom; sometimes they sink." Rhynchosaur 03:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Biological Info

I think this article should include more information about the biological facts on the sea cucumber. Currently, it is about how it is used in food etc. I will try and add to this but I think others should too. ----