Talk:Scythian languages

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Scythian languages article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] More Scythian (Sakan) vocabulary from my notes

English - Saka Scythian - (Possible connections??)

Earth - 'Isamašanda
Life - Jiveté (M. Kurdish "Jewey", "Ji" ; O. Pers. Jiva; Sansk. Jivita; Latv. Dzive)
Joy - Patsanémeté (Urart. Pitsušé; Hurr. Pisušti)
Sun - Urmaisdé
Water - Utsa (Latv. Udens; Gael. Uške; Phryg. Utur)
Love - Briya (Vedic Preman; Goth. Friyaþva)
Wisdom - Hajvataté (Luw. Haziziša; Hitt. Hatatar; O. Pers Šiyati)
Conclusions: Some of the words in this small sample don't seem to have any close connections to other languages; and some of the "possible connections" are "long-shots". The most obvious cognate is the word for Life with the Indo-Aryan languages. All of the vaguely similar words happen to be Indo-European; with the exception of the Urartian / Hurrian.
It would be interesting to see what these vocab are in Ossetic, if anyone has it. Feel free to add any other connections or words to this list if you know of any. Note, these words are nothing at all like their counterparts in Tocharian, that I have put on the Talk:Tocharian_languages page. Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 05:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Aryan word flag

The section on Sarmatians put out a call for references on Scythian words to this article. The discussion page cites chalibes, "steel". This is not an Aryan or an Indo-European word in origin. The Chalybes were the metallurgists for the region. At one time between the little and big Caucasus mountains natural nodes of bronze and steel were lying around on the surface. The people living there, who must have descended to Georgians and other Caucasian peoples, began working the copper. Eventually they invented tuyeres, which enabled them to achieve higher temperatures, at which point they discovered natural steel, which was iron mixed with Arsenic and Carbon. When they learned how to vary the Carbon content by puddling, they became the steel-mongers of the region. They developed a distinctive art, which has since come to be called "Scythian art." It is the famed animal and woven vegetation style, which you see also in Mycenaean art, with the "flying leap"of the gazelles. That they were not Indo-European is certain. The Chalybes are pretty well known in Biblical studies, living north of Assyria. Moreover, some of them descended to the kingdom or Urartu, which came from the original Hurrians. Urartu was taken over by Indo-European-speaking Armenians, on account of which the Armenians often take credit for the entire widespread style of art. These matters are explicated on any good history of Armenia or Georgia as well as on the Internet. Try topics such as copper or steel, ancient, or origin. The plains people, or Aryans, got most of their metal goods from the Caucasus region, although some was from the Urals, and then later some from Czechoslovakia and Poland. The Caucasus contains its own very ancient languages including many now defunct, such as Hattili and Hurrili as well as Urartean. We don't have much on the Chalybes and the origin of human use of metals in Wikipedia but if no one else does it eventually I will get to it. Meanwhile, it might be good not to get too carried away by Iranians. Not everything is Iranian. And, the Indo-Europeans may have been great horse traders, but they got their metal and their metal weapons and at least some of their vocabulary regarding those things from someone else.

"Aryan" and "Indo-European" are not synonymous, as your phrasing here would tend to imply. "Aryan" properly refers to the Indo- Iranian branch of Indo-European alone. Also, while on the topic of "Aryan", why is that old chestnut always allowed to appear in Wikipedia articles about "Aryan" meaning "noble", for which there is not the slightest evidence?

I thought there was at least some slight evidence for that one... arya- like Cognates in all the really old Indo-European languages, including Avestan, Sanskrit, Hittite, Greek (aristo-), Celtic, Gothic, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, etc.... Hopefully someone with better data at their fingertips can fill this one out... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 06:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sanskrit and Avestan are both Indo-Iranian languages so of course 'arya-' does appear in both - although with no certain meaning besides its use as the ethnonym for the original speakers of either language - but there are no certain cognates in any dialect outside of the Indo- Iranian branch. The root of Greek 'aristo-' may well be related to that of 'arya-', but 'aristo-' is not in Greek an ethnonym and thus any indication that the Indo-European ancestors of the Greeks ever called themselves 'arya-' or *aryo-. Those forms in Celtic and Germanic to which you refer were once thought to be cognates of 'arya-' but which etymologies have since been rejected. I'm not myself aware of any supposed cognates in Latin or Hittite.

See the archives of Yahoo's Indo-European discussion list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/ and/or query that list for confirmation or more information. See also Yahoo's indo-iranian linguistics list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indo_iranian/ .

[edit] Hungarian nationalist pseudoscience

"The runes of the Magyars (Hungarians) are very similar to the Scythian runes. The Hungarian chronicles tell us about the Scythian-Hunnish ancestry of the Hungarians and the Hungarian runatic writing was called Scythian writing in the middle age Hungary. The symbols of the Scythians (deer, griffin, tree of life etc.) were the main symbols of the Hungarians too so the kinship seems to be possible."

I've removed this paragraph as it really seems to do nothing more than attempt to prove some kind of nationalist sentiment about the origins of the Magyar people. Anyone who knows even the slightest thing about the history of Hungary, the Magyar, or the Scythians, can see this paragraph makes little scientifc sense. --86.135.71.113 20:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The information entirely pertinent. It simply needs rephrasing. I would request it's return with appropriate modification to ensure matters are objectively stated. --Rah29 18:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] "may be derived"

I'm wondering about this paragraph:

However, some of the Scythians moved toward the Caucasus, and modern Ossetic may be derived from their language.

I will admit that the distinctions between Iranian peoples of antiquity (the Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, etc.) is a bit blurry to me.

Clearly Ossetic is an Iranian language. What could it have derived from, if not from Scythian/Sarmatian? Certainly the article for Ossetic gives no alternate explanation. --Saforrest 15:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some Extentions

One external link and some modern form of names are added.

The anonymous deletion of the Iranian etymologies has been reverted. It may be a case of nationalist vandalism or simply a case of ignorance of the field. The original (and restored) list had references to the scholarly literature. "85.98.180.24" replaced the text with an unedited cut-and-paste insertion of the unscientific Fred Hamori-paper found on an esoteric website.
I have decided to be more than fair. Therefore I have kept an abridged version of the Fred Hamori-etymologies with a short commentary which should make it clear that it has no scientific significance at all. Even though there are hardly any advocates of the Turkic hypothesis in the scholarly republic, it has strong supporters in the internet, especially among advocates of the so-called Turanian theory, and I have therefore considered it worth mentioning it. Enkyklios 11:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NOR (No Original Search)

Psuedo-linguistic scholarship claiming Hungarian to be Sumerian related to Scythians related to Dravidian has no scholarly basis. That is why it should be deleted. Wikipedia is not a place for nationalist propoganda. Fred Hamori is not a scholar but a Hungarian nationalists. --Ali doostzadeh 18:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massive suppression of factual information

It is customary to remove blanked out material to the talk page for discussion, not to preetend it never existed. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The cited Iranian etymologies are uncertain due to the fact that we do not know what aspect has motivated the naming of the particular deity. They cannot of course serve as a proof of the Iranian nature of the Scythian language since they are based themselves on that assumption (it would be a vicious circle). Furthermore, it cannot be excluded altogether that the Iranian-speaking Scythians had non-Iranian theonyms.
The same criticism is valid for the alternative etymologies proposed by the advocates of the Turkish hypothesis. The following list of cognates in Sumerian and the Altaic and Uralic languages (inter alia) has been compiled by Fred Hamori: [1]
  • Tabiti = *"fire god". Cf. Hurrian tib-ir "vulcan"; Sumerian tab "fire"; Egyptian tep "fire, burn, flame"; Ugrian tab-it , tab, tut "fire"; Hungarian tüz "fire"; tap-lo "tinder"; Sumerian tibira "metal worker, smith, to hit"; Turkic timur "iron"; Hungarian tibor (personal name <) *"smith". Second part = Sumerian adda "father"; Elamite atta "father"; Mede atu "father"; Dravidian atu "father"; Finnic atti "father,grandfather"; Chuvash atte "father"; Hungarian atya "father,patriarch"; Turkic ata "father".
  • Papaios = *father. First part = Sumerian ab, abba "father, old man, elder" (p / b); Sumerian basu "old man"; Akkadian abu "father" (> Semitic languages); Mongol baba "lord, father"; Turk baba "father, ancestor (clan head)"; Bulgar baba "ruler (old Bulgar Hun)"; Osman aba "father"; Dravidian apa, apu, apan "father"; Hungarian apa, apu "father"; Hungarian ba-chi "respected elder man" (s > ch); Ujgur ba-ch "respected elder man" (s > ch); Elamite an-apa "chief god < heavenly father", ne-bo "royal, heavenly ruler"; Dravidian, Egypt, Polynesian, Hungarian nip, nab, anapu, nap "fire / light / sun". Second part = Chuvas as+atte "grandfather"; Hungarian ösh "ancestor, ancient"; Turk yash "elderly, time".
  • Api = = *"mother earth". Cf. Sumerian a-ab-ba "the sea, goddes of the sea", ia "god of wisdom/sea lands"; Hungarian hab "wave, foam"; Ugrian xump "wave".
  • Oitosyros = *"sun god". Cf. Sumerian utu "sun/time god", ud "time", iti "month"; Hungarian Idö "time"; Ujgur ödü "time"; Turkic öt "sun", ot "fire"; Mongol ot-utsir "cause of years". Second part of the word = *"royal/king". Cf. Sumir sar; Scythian Sauro-mata "descendants of "royal" scythians"; Etruscan ae-sar "god" > Latin caesar; Assyrian kari-ja "ruler"; Kotanese chara "commander,leader"; Hun chur "prince", kur-sik "a Hun ruler"; Parthian ar-sak "ruler"; Hungarian ur-sag "lordship" (k > h > -), kor-many "government"; Tibetan chor "ruler"; Petcheneg chur "commander,leader"; Kirghiz choro "commander,leader"; Turk chur "early rulers" (archaic)
  • Arg/timpasa. First part = Sumerian a'r "a praise"; Mongol Er-gim-basa "important,prominent person"; Turkic Er-dem-pasa "head of righteousness?"; Turkic Ar-dam "virtue"; Hungarian Er-dem "virtuous,praiseworthy"; Cuman er-deng "virgin". Second part = Sumerian basu "elder man"; Ugric Paz "god"; Turkic bash > basha "head > prince"; Chuvash pus "head"; Sumerian pa "top, chief"; Osman beyin "head"; Finn-Ugor paa, paaye "head"; Hungarian fö, fey "top, head, chief" (p > f), feye-del-em "prince"; Dravidian pay "head"
  • Thagimasadas. First part = Mongol dagas, tagas "sea" (d > t); Mongol teng-rim "god"; Sumerian ding-ir "god", eng-ur "subterranean sea"; Hun t'ing-li "god"; Hungarian teng-er "sea", dag-ay "tides of the moon" (dag "swelling"), is-ten "god"; Turkic teng-ere "god", teng-iz, ten-iz "sea" (r > z). Or: Scythian *temer "lake/sea"; Sumir tim "lake or well"; Hungarian tav "lake" (m > v; Finnic ti "lake, sea"; Cheremis tomoz; Selkup tama. Second part = Sumir mis "prince / youngman / hero"; Ugor mosh "man"; Dravidian mas, mac "man"; Hungarian meshe "folk tale < hero tale", magy-ari "man > hungarian" (s > sh > z > gy); Turk masal "folk tale"; Russian mozer-ian "Baskir (turkicized magyar)"; Dravidian maga "male" (s > g); Tuva madir "hero". Third member = ata "father", see above.
In addition to being arbitrary like the Iranian etymologies given by mainstream scholars, these alternative etymologies suffer from a serious deficiency, namely the lack of a proper methodology. Even though the accumulative evidence may seem convincing to a non-specialist, it is in fact contrary to the basic principles of comparative linguistics. A superficial similarity of two words with a more or less similar meaning is not a proof of them being cognates (famous examples of accidental similarity are English bad ~ Persian bad or English have, German haben ~ Latin habere). The more languages one includes in a mass-comparison, the chance of finding similar words increases.[2] A sound linguistic comparison, on the other hand, works hard in finding regular sound correspondences and derivation patterns language by language. In most cases related words are in fact very unlike indeed in the different languages (e.g. English hound = French chien, English come = French venir); thus, the apparent similarity of Hamori's cognates do not support his allegation - on the contrary.


Sumerian is not Turkish. Neither is Dravidian Turkish. Look at the baseless etymology claims by Mr. Hamori who is a hungarian nationalist. He claims Hungarian, Dravidian, Sumerian, Turkish are all related groups and then tries to find a similar sounding word in one of those languages to a Scythian word and by couple of transformations, tries to get his result. That is not how linguistic works. For example if I claim all the Indo-European languages, then I can relate Chinese to Indo-European. The reason is that for many chinese words, I should be able to find a word in an Indo-European language and then claim Chinese has Indo-European words. Have you read the Wikipedia policy on NOR (No Original Research)? BTW every etymology needs to be sourced. For example I know all the words from Mede and there is no "atu" as father. So you can see the first etymology by Hamori is simply false. Also "atta" for example means father in some Indo-European languages. --Ali doostzadeh 18:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
idle fringe etymologizing of Sumerian, Turkic, Dravidian, Hurrian and whatnot is justly ignored on Wikipedia as pseudo-linguistics. dab (𒁳) 21:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scythian and Saka need two different pages

The Scythian group (Scythian, Sarmatian, Alanian, Ossetian) need a different page from Saka (Khotanese) as they are different sub-branches of Eastern Iranian. Just because both are called Scythian from a linguistic genetic relationship they are not the same. Check Linguarum Iranicum, etc. azalea_pomp

what is your point? We do have a separate Saka language article. It's a stub. We realize this is a dialect continuum (Eastern_Iranian_languages#Northeastern), but it is still pointless to keep an isolated substub for every sub-sub-dialect of Northeastern Iranian. dab (𒁳) 21:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)