Talk:Scratching

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peer review Scratching has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
This article is part of WikiProject Hip hop, an ongoing effort to improve articles related to hip hop culture and hip hop music. The goal of the project is to bring this article, along with all others to featured status. If you have any questions, concerns or wish to participate you can visit the main project page here.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents

[edit] Picture

Here is a picture of scratching I took. If someone feels it's appropriate, please add it to the article.

Image:Scratching_long_exposure.jpg

Image name is "Scratching_long_exposure.jpg".

Might do for a start, though it took me a while to notice the hand and only because I was looking for it. I suppose a flash would get an adverse reaction from the DJ ;-) - David Gerard 09:20, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Origins

"Scratching is a DJ or turntablist technique originated by Grand Wizard Theodore"

Anyone else think it's worth mentioning that John cage used a frequency record on a variable speed turntable in a 1939 composition to create scratch-like sounds?

[edit] Cite Sources for most popular scratch sound?

This request to cite sources is buggin' me out. It is totally undisputable. I would say that it is like asking for a citation that the electric guitar is featured prominently in rock music. It is difficult to find an article that explicitly says that, but you could easily find a long list of rock musicians that use electric guitars. Similarly, I can think of numerous ways to show that beep, off and frresh are the most used samples for scratching, but would they constitute Original Material WP:NOR? Some of my thoughts are thus: 1. Collect a list of hip hop tracks or albums with the sounds scratched in/on them 2. Collect a list of dmc champions that used the sounds in their battles 3. Collect a list of battle records which include the sounds. Actually, i almost wonder if it wouldn't be easier to make a negative list for the last two- listing dmc champs and battle records which DON'T use those sounds.

How about this one, when DJ Swamp made his un-skippable scratching tool, the entire a-side included the "off" sound, and the b-side "fresh", each repeated 33&1/3 times a minute so that the samples would line up radially- say the sample starts at 12 o'clock- then no matter where the needle is one the vinyl, as long as the record is at 12 o'clock then it is at the start of the sample.

Does the fact that he chose "off" and "fresh" speak to the popularity/importance of these samples?

Please, any advice would be appreciated. DJsunkid 13:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Erm, its entire disputable. I DJ, I've heard hundreds of other DJs and probably thousands of hip hop tracks, and you know what? Never heard those samples. Theres a world beyond the USA, and indeed beyond the 1980s. --Kiand 18:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd also like to remind you theres an entire second genre of music in which scratching and sampling is done (electronic dance), and I'd suggest you'd be able to count on one set of fingers, if you'd even need that, how many EDM tracks include those samples. Even if they arethe most used samples in hip hop, in the USA, that pretty much suggests they aren't the "most used samples" world wide. --Kiand 18:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The "aaaah" sound is actually scratched quite a bit into techno and electronic dance songs as well as hip hop. To say it is definitively the "most used" sample implies that someone has undertaken an accounting, which would be a pretty arduous task, but I don't know of any other sound that fits the bill in terms of sheer popularity. I think it is reasonable to say that it is pretty much the standard sample that most people worldwide learn to scratch with, no matter what their style of music, since it is on every instructional disc or video, and it is a very easy sound to perform all the different scratches on since it combines the sharp attack and long decay with a steady "scratchy" sound.--csloat 19:43, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Can you name some where its on the recording? Because if it is actually in use, I'll likely have them here (few thousand discs), and I've still never knowingly heard it. And most people don't learn from an instructional disc or video... --Kiand 19:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I am really bad with techno songs/artists; I'd have to listen to a bunch of different stuff for a few hours to pull out songs, since in electronic music it is usually used pretty subtly and I don't know the songs well enough to tell you which song and where. I've definitely heard it in a fatboy slim song, for example, but don't know which one offhand. You have definitely heard it; it just sounds like a staticky noise chopped up on beat when used for scratching (it took me a few years of listening to it before I even knew it was "aaaah"). I'll try to look around for an mp3 sample of it so you know what I'm talking about, but there is no way you haven't heard it before. As for how most people learn scratching, you can only get so far scratching sounds you hear on random records. The only way to get good at scratching random sounds is to practice for a long time with sounds with very particular characteristics (assuming you are learning known scratches like chirp, flare, etc.). You can't just pick up a spoken word record and start scratching it very well - it will take a while to develop a style and to gain record control and so forth. It's like picking up a guitar and teaching yourself; you're gonna need some guidance, whether it comes from a video or the internet or a friend or a book. And having particular kinds of sounds - especially one with a sharp attack and long decay - is critical for learning certain scratches (eventually, you can apply those scratches to other sounds, but only after you've developed a lot more record control). So every scratch record I know of -- even techno and house scratch records like "Tools for House" and such -- has that sound somewhere on the record (often multiple times). I wouldn't want to make a claim that implies survey research about what "most" people do to learn scratching, but the "aaah" sound is literally everywhere. It's just a ridiculously easy sound to scratch with, and it is extremely available.--csloat 20:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
here I found this on the internet - the first sounds on this mp3 are the aaah sound. It sounds a bit different cut up though but hopefully you will recognize it. the mp3--csloat 20:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
No, not heard it, or indeed any of the other in that loop, in actual dance music tracks. Fatboy Slim is not exclusively dance, btw, particularly on Palookaville. It may be easy to scratch with and easily available, but none of that suggests that its the most common sample used. Personally, I'd say the most common sample used in dance music (which amounts in terms of existing output to as much if not more than hip hop) is a relatively specific air horn note (best noticable in "Let Me Be Your Fantasy" by Baby D, and in hundreds of other early 1990's records), but theres a damn good chance you've not heard that one. Without any hard evidence, it should not be mentioned in the article, and currently theres no evidence beyond the names of a few tracks that use it. --Kiand 21:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
To clarify, what specifically are you calling "dance music"? For fatboy, I heard it on an earlier album, the one with the funk soul brother song. I hear it often in house music, and have since the late 80s. I think you have heard it -- it sounds very different when scratched, as do most sounds. I am heading out (to hear some dance music!) for the night, but when I have time I will try to pull out some tracks that have it, or at least find a sample of it being scratched. I agree with you that there needs to be more evidence than a list of songs to say it is the most common in the article; but at the very least we could quote the guy from the scratch documentary I mentioned below, once we figure out who that is....--csloat 05:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
by the way I'm listening to this file with the baby d song and trying to listen for the horn scratch; can you point out where in the song it is? Thanks.--csloat 05:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't have sound on this terminal, so I can't check right now, but theres a possibility that its not in that mix. "The Rockafeller Skank" is off Fatboy Slim's second album which, like all released under his name, is not fully dance music by any interepretation of what that means. --Kiand 12:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
"cliched dance music air horn sample" is at 47, 50, 53 and 55 seconds in that version of the track. --Kiand 15:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I hear the sample you are talking about (very quiet in the mix, right?), but I don't hear any scratching. Is it actually being scratched on that version of the song? Or do you have another example of it being scratched? I'm trying to understand. I've been listening to house music and electronic music since the late 1980s, but I'm not sure how you're defining "dance music" in this context (and I'm definitely coming more from a "hip hop" background). Thanks--csloat 23:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm looking over this discussion it appears you (Kiandi) were talking about samples and not scratches -- that may be the source of our misunderstanding. I would not at all call "aaah" the most sampled sound, even in hip-hop (where James Brown screams and drum licks are ubiquitous) but I definitely think it is the most often scratched sound in hip-hop and likely in other genres as well. I'm still a little unclear on the specific boundaries of the "dance music" genre according to Kiandi but I have definitely heard it in house songs (though I admit I am still at a loss to come up with examples; that will take me a while since I just don't know my house records well enough, and the scratching I've heard on those records tends to be a lot more subtle than its use in hip-hop.--csloat 23:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about both scratching -and- sampling, particularly as any form of live sampling in dance music is acheived with exactly the same techniques as scratching. The best way to deal with this is to not claim -anything- is the most commonly used. --Kiand 23:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
This page is about scratching and I think it's useful to distinguish between the two. I think you're incorrect that "any form of live sampling in dance music is achieved with exactly the same techniques as scratching." First, the "release" is only one of the many scratching techniques that exist. Second, there are many devices -- some incorporated into mixers and CDJ turntables -- that are used instead of scratching to play a sound on beat and add that sound into the loop. Third, we are not just talking about "live sampling" but also sampling that occurs in the studio as part of the mix. Fourth, if you're just sampling (and not, say, flaring or dragging the sounds), you are better off using a sampler rather than a turntable because the sound is available to you any time, rather than just whenever you put it on the turntable (precluding the possibility of cueing up the next record in the meantime) and hunting for that particular record groove. I think we both agree that we shouldn't make claims in the article that cannot be supported, but I disagree with your understanding of what happens when sounds are sampled in dance music. (Again, I am still unclear on how you are delimiting the genre, but it seems that you would agree that "house music" belongs in that genre, so I am trying to stick to that for now, and leave the fatboy slims out of it...).--csloat 23:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah-HA!!! On page eleven of the TTM homepage which is ALREADY cited in the sources for this page, it states: "In the "Rockit", DST scratches the record "Change the Beat" by Fab Five Freddy. The sample that he used, of a flanged voice saying "fresh", has become quintessential turntablist fodder."
Furthermore, one can point out that the video of a turntablist performance cited on the turntablist article on wiki features an extended section of scratching "off" and "fresh", and the TTM site uses fresh and off almost exclusively (although they call the "off" sound "ahh" for some reason). DJsunkid 03:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to watch it again, but as I recall there was an interview in the documentary Scratch where the interviewer said that the Aaaah sound was the most popular scratch sound because it had become a sort of touchstone of a DJ's skills -- the sharp attack and long decay makes it perfect for practicing all the different scratches, and it is a feature in most battle routines because it allows the DJ to show off what he or she can really do. If anyone wants to watch the documentary again and look for that part, I'm sure we can cite whoever is interviewed there.--csloat 09:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC) Oh yeah, Hee-Haw Brakes is a pretty popular scratch tool and it has the Aaaah sound on many places on the record so it can be a part of several scratch sentences. Not sure how to cite that sort of information however.--csloat 09:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Light Years Ahead" POV

The line "he is light years ahead of anyone else in the game" seems to me as quite POV. Plus, Kid Koala's just as good as QBert.

Agreed. I don't particularly have trouble with an article saying 'so-and-so has contributed significantly to...' but lets not have an orgasm over the guy. In fact, I'm going to tone it down. I don't know anything on Kid Koala, perhaps you should add that. Fëaluinix 07:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, thats absolute bollocks. Five or six years ago it might have been true, but theres lots of DJ's nowadays who are easily on the same level and beyond.
Even though Kid Koala is a good turntablist, and has a unique style with horn scratching and relatively elaborate song structures, his technical ability is nowhere near that of Q-bert's (nobody's is). Q-bert has mastered almost every single scratch technique in existence, most notably drum patterns and one hand/no fader scratches. Even though there are many good dj's, none of them can compete with his speed and arsenal of techniques. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.183.208.64 (talk) 05:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Remove from The World Of Scratching section?

The "Scratching is a complex, yet mis-understood art." sentence is just such a confusing opening line for that section. Can we remove it / totally re-write it? - User:Grinick Dec 24 2005

[edit] World of Scratching

On February 23, 2006, a an unknown editor modified the content of the World of Scratching section in this article, pointing out conflicting information. If you are in a position to address this matter, please feel free to do so; if you prefer, you may contact me via my talk page.

Cheers Folajimi 03:07, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

What about the article needs to be cleaned up? Hyacinth 18:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The tag was applied in reference to an important observation made by an anonymous editor. For additional information on this matter, please see the World of Scratching section of this talk page. Folajimi 23:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I remove the cleanup tag an added Template:Fact after the assertion. Hyacinth 06:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
How does that resolve the information conflict between the articles? The information that needs to be cleaned up is still in the article, why remove the tag? Folajimi 07:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The cleanup tag didn't resolve the conflict either, but it also didn't indicate what or where the problem was. Hyacinth 10:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

All Music Guide describes the album as having been "dubbed the first 'scratch concept album'" (Smith, Craig Robert. Wave Twisters, Episode 7 Million: Sonic Wars Within the Protons. Hyacinth 10:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Very well. Thanks for resolving this matter. Cheers. Folajimi 22:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

So what the heck is "World of Scratching"? How about sections on Scratch history, scratch culture, and key figures or something like that? World of scratching sounds like a grab bag; this could probably be a lot better organized. As for Q-bert, I guess it depends how one defines "scratch concept album" (and I'm not sure who dubbed it that), but by 1998 there were plenty of albums that had been created just with scratches (certainly Bomb the Bass predates that by about a decade, and Christian Marclay had stuff even earlier (though not hiphop). Wave Twisters is also made with a lot of samplers and is not purely a scratch album. Kid Koala's scratchscratchscratch is 1996.-csloat 09:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ogg Vorbis

There should be some Ogg Vorbis files of the different styles of scratching.