Talk:Scottish cuisine

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All other articles on aspects of Scottish life follow the form of "X or/in Scotland," save Scots law. What do folks think of the title of the current article? Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 03:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia convention is that things associated with people and culture are named "fooish x", and other things are named "x of foo". The std for cuisine, which is cultural, is "fooish", see Category:Cuisine by nationality and Category:Categories by nationality. --Mais oui! 07:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I was following the French cuisine, German cuisine convention when I created this article (although there are still some articles such as Cuisine of Morocco which do not follow this) Nach0king 12:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"Hearty Scots food rich in Meats and Fats". I take it someone here has mistaken the modern "mechanically reclaimed meat" and chippie diet for traditional "scran". Real Scots food, high as it is in dairy products, is as healthy a diet as one can get. With a large part of carbohydrate, essential fats and proteins. "Hearty" to me conjures images of Stews, Broths, Game pies, Stovies, Collops, Cullen Skink, Roast Game, Black bun, Crowtowdie, Atholl Brose with Raspberries, not to mention Chicken Jalfrezi, or the Chieftain o' the puddins. It is a failure of Scots society in the 20/21st c. to appreciate this. This results in most of our quality produce being sent abroad where they appreciate it, and importation of produce of dubious merit here where we couldn't care less supposedly. A vicious cycle emerges, when we are too lazy and lethargic to prepare decent food and rely on shoddy ready-meals and takeaways, thereby lowering our energy levels further. Right, rant over and my kebab awaits.

Seriously, can we try not to go along with the sick man of Europe line, it doesn't seem to be within the remit of this article. Scots food is as diverse as any in Europe and little known apart from Haggis. Surely health issues should be discussed elsewhere, and this page reserved for the joys of Gigot of Mutton, Cock-a -Leekie etc.? Brendandh 23:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think using this article to describe Scottish cuisine in its ideal form, or as you think it should be, is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Hearty was perhaps a poor choice of word on my part but there's no denying that the failure of Scottish society, as you put it, is very much a real one and a recognition of the atrocious state of the Scottish diet is 100% needed in an article on the Scottish cuisine. Do you honestly think that Cullen Skink and Crowtowdie are more indicative of the everyday diet of your average Scot than, say, a Scotch pie or a pizza crunch? I certainly don't and I think the vast majority of people and printed/web sources based in Scotland, at least in the West, would agree.

There is certainly room to discuss the proud elements of Scottish cuisine but to attempt to "not go along with the sick man of Europe" line is, I'm sorry to say, an attempt not to go along with reality. Nach0king 10:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that there is room for both in this article. I encourage you to Be Bold!, and write gloriously yourself of the wonders of Scottish cuisine. That said, I think that health problems, if they're prevalent or particularly severe, should be mentioned. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 06:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


I tried to clarify it a bit by pointing out that many traditional dishes are in fact good for you; the soups and potages that would feed whole familiies would be rather low in meat and fats, instead using lots of root vegetables, barley etc. But the health problems here *are* severe, as referenced, and I think the article should reflect this. In fact I'd arrange it thus:
  • Traditional, hearty Scottish fare that may be fattening due to locally-available ingredients and a cold climate, but is characterised mostly by its reliance on local crops, with meat sometimes used only for stock or at least sparingly.
  • Many Scots eat very badly, with chips forming the basis for many if not most meals. The availability of fast food and the decline of big family soup-esque dinners that we may have eaten 100 years ago contributes to this.
  • However, in common with much of the UK and Europe in general, a growing number of people are trying new things, returning to fresh fruit and vegetables (this seems to be happening a lot more recently) and recognising the importance of a healthy diet. While a lot of this is based around salads and so on that cannot be considered traditional, there's still a place for traditional Scottish food here: a dish of salmon, potatoes and a green vegetable can be sourced locally pretty much no matter where you are in Scotland.
I think this puts across the reality of the situation - that the Scots diet is poor - whilst recognising that it was not always this way and - hopefully - will not always be this way. Any objections? (Oh, and I took "hearty" out, as I agree now that it was a very poor choice of word from me - sorry!) Nach0king 13:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. I think there should be an explanation however that the chippy diet was one borne out of social deprivation, decline of the nuclear family etc. and the various consequences of that, and that has not been helped by the arrival in the 1970's of Big Macs etc. which presented the fast food diet to a larger section of society than before. (In fact I suppose "Heart-y" is a good word when you consider all the cholesterol filling up the coronary arteries of our compadres!) ;-) I also however think that there is scope for explaining the historic diets of the grander Scots country houses, and how that has affected modern Scots restaurant cheffing et. al. and the influence that that has had on generally Metropolitan (ie Edinburgh and Glasgow) tastes at home over this and the later part of last century and the expansion of that palate into the rest of Scotland. Now, that might be considered have vague overtones of Urbanite snobbery, but not so. I think it's imperative in this article to explain the bad, but also to extol the good. I don't know whether it is a good idea or no to include a section on the overdrinking in this country. It is probably a grey area, booze being something to accompany food as well as for a saturday night! Anyway good luck with the edits, I'll chuck in my pennys worth from time to time.Brendandh 05:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Those are good ideas and your recent edits are excellent. I totally agree that we should cover the good and bad - after all, we're aiming for neutrality here and both are extant. I'll include a section on drink soon (unless someone else does it first) and while it'll of course cover binging it'll also mention, say, the vast array of whiskys for which Scotland is world famous. Nach0king 22:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scottish breakfast

Forgive me if this has been raised before. Accordingly with the subject I REALLY do have a big greasy caledonian chip on my shoulder. Surely this is within the remit of Scottish cuisine, not as a byblow of English/UK culturally imperialistic opinion, viz. all the chat about the Scots Tung being a dialect of English. Full English Breakfast surely has its place, (obviously without those dodgy American Hash Browns shewn in the illustration for the so-called English Breakfast :)), But Scotland is the home of the Black pudding, at least in the last hundred or so years, just as Ireland is home to the White pudding, not to mention Scotland's wonderful Square sausage, tattie scone, dumpling, and the recent arrival of haggis as a morning bite.(dubious however, as it's a bit of a "We're different" token). Let's see who has the best coronaries in these islands. I think our menu is far better qualified to stand on its own rather than perch on the back of a Saxon Greasy-spoons menu. Brendandh 00:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

In my opinion the current article is not written in a neutral point of view. One paragraph in particular concerns me.

In the following

  • Scotland, in common with the other parts of the British Isles suffered during the twentieth century. Rationing during the conflicts that affected that period, and large scale industrial agriculture limited the diversity of food available to the public. During the latter part of the century, the greater part of Scottish 'quality' produce was exported, and inferior imported. The fruits of Scotland's seas gracing European restaurants, whilst children in Glasgow were eating processed American Fish fingers and other processed foods. Scotland suffered under the UK wide BSE and Foot and Mouth legislation, when it was hardly affected. One result of this however, is that Scottish meat is now considered one of the safest on the planet as a result of the stringent controls in place
  1. None of the references show that the majority of quality scottish food is exported , or that inferior was imported.
  2. The referencegiven does not show that glasgows children were eating American fish fingers.
  3. Is there any need to say American fish fingers wouldn't simply processed food, as backed up by the reference be enough.
  4. The phrasing is delibrately emotive , contrasting the 'fruits of Scotland's seas' in 'European restaurants' with childrens food.
  5. The references for Scottish meat is now considered one of the safest on the planet come from the National Farmers union of Scotland, The Quality meat standards board of scotland which cannot be considered as unbiased sources. The final reference is from the UK government 'Food Standard agenecy' and does not mention scotish specifically ,except to say a scotish goat may have had BSE and in general says 'Currently there have been more cases in the UK than anywhere else in the world' which suggests the opposite of the quoted statement.

I dont know what can be salvaged fom the above or whether it would be better to delete the whole quoted piece. All views welcome. GameKeeper 23:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with your changes (although I've cleaned it up a little and in fact removed a little more). If such info is to be included it needs to be cited throughout and written in more neutral tones. Thanks for dealing with it. Nach0king 14:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Re-merge British cuisine articles

The cuisine articles (of Britain) originally started out as British cuisine but for presumably nationalistic reasons someone decided to split out Scottish, Welsh and Irish/Northern Irish and rename the old British article to English cuisine. I think this was a mistake. There is so much crossover here that it makes sens to discuss them all together and then have subsections explaining English/Scots/Welsh/Irish/Cornish etc specialities. I was particularly annoyed when someone removed references to the fact that "Britain became a net importer of food" from the English cuisine article because they, they said in the edit summary "British isn't English", they also removed referenced to Gordon Ramsay because he was born in Scotland. This is where it becomes plain silly and the problem would be solved by simply remerging the articles. Jooler (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Naw.
More on this here.
Mutt Lunker 20:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)