Talk:Scottish Gaelic

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[edit] Gaelic speakers in Scotland (1755 - 2001) table

Some of the cells contain the rather vague abbreviation "N/A". Is this information "not available" or "not applicable"? If "not applicable", I wonder if the number of people who now speak Gaelic only should be "0"? Either way, a footnote about why the data isn't available or doesn't apply would be helpful. --kingboyk 21:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics at .sco

I am merging .sco to Proposed top-level domain. There is some statistical data there which - if it is correct and relevant - should be placed at this article.

Here it is:

The 2001 Census revealed that 93,282 Scottish residents out of a population of over 5 million had some knowledge of Gaelic, of whom 31,235 claimed to be able to "read, speak and write" Gaelic. [1].

Can anyone please merge it into this article? This article already has some statistics and i don't want to introduce contradictions without even properly understanding the subject.

Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni 18:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scottish Gaelic punk

The Scottish Gaelic punk article is up for deletion - please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scottish Gaelic punk --MacRusgail (talk) 17:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language in Southern Scotland

Folk in what's now Southern Scotland spoke a Brythonic language until most of them were incorporated into the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria in the seventh century, whence began the process of replacement of that Brythonic language by Old English. Gaelic arrived several centuries later, when the Scots conquered south of Forth & Clyde, but Gaelic NEVER became the dominant language of southern Scotland. FACT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.9.98 (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That is quite simply nonsense and ignorance. Galloway (which makes up about half of Southern Scotland) was one of the earliest Gaelic speaking regions. And as ive pointed out below Gaelic was also spoken across "the Land of the English in the Kingdom of the Scots" (Lothians/South East). This is not a matter of controversy and i advise you to either read properly on the subject or to put your agenda aside because all you are doing is bringing the quality of the article down by inserting inaccurate information.siarach (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all Gaelic was not spoken in "a few patches" of southern Scotland but across its entirity. Across Scotland it was the language of "court and government, of the artistocracy, clergy and intelligentsia and used throughout the royal territory" although the Lothians (and presumably the adjoining parts of the borders) was something of an exception in that it enjoyed the presence of the language largely as one of the elite exclusively rather than being also the language of the masses (the popular language in this region being English as you say).

Secondly to claim "Old English and had been the dominant language of the south of what's now Scotland since the seventh century" is to speak nonsense. To claim that "Old English had been the dominant language of the South-East/Lothians" might be reasonable although still misleading given the presence of Gaelic as the elite language in that region by the land owning aristocracy and their followers for about 200 years. As it is your additions betray either a lack of knowledge on the topic or of fairly blatant pov. siarach (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Siarach's correct; English didn't spread much (at least not permanently) beyond the coastal strip of the Merse and Lothian until the the high middle ages. That's not southern Scotland. Even then, English lordship in Lothian and the Merse which began in the 7th century does not necessitate linguistic displacement: we have no evidence of the English v British situation in that zone until the 12th cent, far too late to place the death of British in the area to a date as unlikely early as the 7th cent.. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what books you two have been reading, but I suggest you try some proper academic histories. Taking place name evidence for a start, the oldish Anglo-Saxon 'Broughton' is found right up at the top of the Tweed Valley, west of Carlisle even, & the very old English (early C7th at latest) 'Haddington' on the Lothian plain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.9.98 (talk) 18:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm the last person on wikipedia you should be trying to brow-beat on this topic; even if evidence such as that were reliable ... and let's assume it is ... 1) it doesn't necessitate general regional displacement; it only shows there were English settled in the area at some stage before the first appearances of such names, not that Britons ceased to exist in their hinterland nor that such English settlements survived long; and 2) that area is not southern Scotland; you're trying put forth an area with the size and population density of Aberdeenshire as "southern Scotland" ... is Aberdeenshire "northern Scotland"? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I've made a more detailed edit that I think should satisfy everyone. There is no reason to edit war over this, especially as the main bone of contention seems to be re Old English & Old British rather than anything to do with Gaelic, or to make snide remarks. I'm actually quite a fan of Brythonic survival, being something of a 'Highamist', but place name evidence seems to me to indiicate very strong Anglian presence in the eastern Solway Basin, throughout the Tweed valley & all across the lothian plains. The latest evidence for Brythonic survival in Anglian-dominated Northumbria that I've encountered is the placename 'Cumwhinton', which is post-Norman Conquest. If you're interested in Brythonic survival & don't already know it then I recommend Charles Phythian-Adams's 'Land of the Cumbrians' (1996).80.229.9.98 (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Your latest version looks fine to me. siarach (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a charter in the Glasgow Registrum dated around 1200 which may suggest British was alive in the hills around Peebles at that period; you'll find discussion on it in a forthcoming article by Dr. Fiona Edmonds of Cambridge. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I shall make sure I get hold of that. One thing we could really do with is a study of the Tweed/Clyde/Annan watershed - surely one of the greatest natural obstacles in 'Middle Britain' - as a cultural & political boundary.80.229.9.98 (talk) 20:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GOC -- justification

I recently added a statement saying that no academic justification had been released for the GOC, but it was reverted as "unsourced criticism".

A) How do we source references for non-existence?!?

B) Do other editors agree with me that this is a (very) relevant piece of information? I always assumed that a statement of the whys and wherefores would exist somewhere, and it is natural for others to do so. Surely the absence of something we would assume to exist is noteworthy in and of itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof Wrong (talk • contribs) 21:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This figure looks odd

From the census table, number of speakers of Gaelic only:

1881 - 231,594
1891 - 43,738

Was there a change in methodology between those two censuses? 86.143.48.55 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It looks like the 1881 and previous census asked if people could speak Gaelic. 1891 and onwards is looks like they were asked if the could speak Gaelic and/or English. This would produce differing answers on the part of respondents. However, the table looks like it tries to combine the two questions sets assuming that anyone reported to be a Gaelic speaker 1881 and earlier was a monoglot Gaelic speaker. Or at least that's what it looks like to me. --sony-youthpléigh 02:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phonetics

The English phonetic transcription looks fine, but isn't [ˈgaːlɪk] really only said by Gaelic speakers? Most Scots/Scottish English dialects don't have a long/short vowel distinction, so a lot of people I know would say [ˈgalɪk] with the short vowel /a/ rather than long /aː/. (Or possibly even use the English pronunciation.) Prof Wrong (talk) 16:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion between Scots and Scottish Gaelic

This comment is misleading and not referrenced: "Outside Scotland, it is occasionally also called Scottish or Scots". It should be removed. Who exactly outside Scotland calls Scottish Gaelic simply "Scots"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.63.66 (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree and the rest of the paragraph conludes: "This usage is uncommon in Scotland (and parts of northernmost England) because since the 16th century the word Scots has by-and-large been used to describe (Lowland) Scots". I have lived in Scotland all of my life and I have never heard anyone refer to the Gaelic language as Scots. It's not uncommon. It simply is never used in either Modern English or Scots. Currently, "Scots" always refers to Lallans or Lowland Scots. I think someone should remove this section or clean up this mess as it is unreferenced and quite frankly not true. The use of the word Scots may indeed have a 1500 year old tradition of being used to describe Gaelic but this is not current usage.--62.249.233.80 (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
"Scottish" may be used as such, however. At least I sometimes do (outside the formal context of Wikipedia, of course!). Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 22:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dialects

Just noticing, this article doesn't contain even a section on Scottish Gaelic dialects, while the dialects of Irish are described in detail (even having their own articles). Is the language so uniform or is this a major gap in the article? Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 21:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)