Talk:School of Oriental and African Studies

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Contents

[edit] Imperial

Sir Richard Sykes, Rector of Imperial College, said "Do we want to be badged as London University along with some less prestigious institutions?"

Which institutions might he have been thinking of I wonder...

Donald MacLeod, 'Getting out of London', The Guardian (Tuesday December 13, 2005)

Old news. I seem to recall him specifically mentioning Queen Mary, University of London. siarach 15:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
He didn't mean SOAS?--AlexanderLondon 13:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems decidedly unlikely, given SOAS's reputation in its field. BovineBeast 16:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Ditto, SOAS is somewhat unique and stands apart from the other colleges. Size isn't everything. 87.194.83.65 12:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Irwin

To Whom It May Concern:

Robert Irwin never said that SOAS is dependent on it's past achievements (infact he was quoting someone else, who was refering to government funding), please read the article you reference, before you misquote. If you read the article, it is impossible to say what you keep quoting!

I read Irwin's book. I am pretty sure that he said that the Near Eastern history department in particular was relying on its past reputation. I don't think you can seriously deny that SOAS's repution has been diminishing over recent decades. It claims to be an international centre of excellence, when in fact it isn't even a national centre of excellence. It's better than most British universities, which isn't saying much, and it's on a par with UCL, Imperial, etc, but it's in a whole other league from Oxford and Cambridge, the UK's only really world-class universities. SOAS has an amazing library of books in Asian and African languages that would be unavailable perhaps anywhere else in the UK or even outside of their country of publication, and it has a fair few outstanding academics, but it can hardly claim to be the world-renowned institution that it was in its first fifty-or-so years. I think that was the gist of what Irwin concluded - that SOAS had sidelined archaeology, papyrology, ancient and medieval history, classical literature, and similar topics in favour of more marketable courses, attracting more students and allowing its staff less time to devote to research.--195.92.67.74 12:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hold on - better than most British universities, which isn't saying much? That's a bizarre statement, considering that British universities are generally recognised the best outside the US (check out any of the international league tables). BovineBeast 16:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Oxford and Cambridge are the best universities outside the US, if not the best universities in the world. A survey some time ago showed that while Harvard ranks top, Oxford and Cambridge are considered by academics throughout the world to produce superior research. The order was Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard. However, the other universities in the UK leave a lot to be desired. For one thing, even the university of London doesn't have all the books its students need, whereas Oxford and Cambridge do, unless you need a MS or an obscure foreign book. That's why students from the University of London have to go to the British Library - because the basic texts they need for their studies are unavailable in the university libraries. Further to that, so much of what one learns at university is learnt outside of the classroom or the library - it's learnt in the common room or over lunch or dinner (perhaps one of those splendid formal halls or guest nights). That doesn't happen at other universities. Having been educated at Oxford and two other universities I feel well qualified to comment on how vastly superior Oxford (and by extension Cambridge) is to any other university in the UK.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia

The accusations of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia at SOAS are probably ignored here because they are unfounded.

The reason SOAS is accused of anti-Semitism is because it does things like hosting a conference on "Israeli Apartheid". This is somewhat in keeping with the very high profile of Muslim students at SOAS and the equally high profile of the SOAS Palestine Society. Lest anybody think I am confusing Islam with Palestine, allow me to point out that the Study of Religions department does some world-leading work on Christianity in the Middle East, including courses and conferences on Christian communities in Palestine and Iraq. However, SOAS does incorporate the former Jews' College (now the Centre for Jewish Studies or something similar), the library has a large Judaica area, and courses on Judaism and Jewish studies are provided. There are quite a number of Jewish members of staff. As far as I can gather, the problem has been that a tiny minority of students has chosen to interpret criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. See, for example, For vile hatred, pop along to SOAS, courtesy of Stephen Pollard. Note that one person who has contributed to the page calls Tom Paulin, 'Tom "kill the jews" Paulin', not, 'Tom "kill the Israelis" Paulin'.

The reason for the accusation of Islamophobia has somewhat escaped me, actually, but I feel I should point out firstly that, pace my reservations above, it is rather at odds with the idea that SOAS is anti-Semitic. I don't have hard statistics at my fingertips, but from anecdotal evidence, I should say that there must be more Muslim students at SOAS, as a proportion of the total student body, than at almost any other university in the UK, and possibly in the Western world. What is more, they enjoy a very high profile, with a regular stall in the main building providing information about Islam and Islamic culture, and two prayer rooms available (one male, one female). Compare that to the situation at the University of Oxford: Prayer Room Facilities: Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies - Evening Access. I am very happy with the number of Muslim students at SOAS, and their treatment by the School authorities seems to be quite satisfactory.--195.92.67.75 22:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well said. One of the reasons i find the accusations of Islamophobia so ludicrous is the SOAS has a huge proportion of Muslim students and is far better known for the extremely left wing persuasion (read pro-Palestine etc) of most of its student body and arguably also its faculty. SOAS being Islamophobic is about as credible an accusation as Eton being of a Communist, anti-Bourgeouise leaning. siarach 09:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
As for the anti-Semitic accusations, I don't know if it's important enough to discuss in the article, but it is at least pertinent to recognize that whether or not one chooses to conflate anti-Zionism or anti-Israeli attitudes with anti-Semitism or not, there is a very strong pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli focus among the louder or more prevalent members of the student body. We have had at least two weeks this year declared as Palestinian Week or something similar - likely more than any other national or ethnic group; and the last Israeli Society meeting I attended had no more than six attendees. I do not imply that this is an institutional bias inherent to the faculty or the administration, but it certainly represents the political views of the more active, more vocal portion of the student body. I came here expecting to find kindred spirits in people interested in regional studies of East Asia, Southeast Asia, Africa, and other regions; instead I find the most politically charged and one-sided atmosphere I have ever been in. LordAmeth 19:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why is there nothing on the anti-Semitism allegations?

That's the most prominent way that SOAS has been featured in the news over the past year or so... AnonMoos 20:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

http://education.guardian.co.uk/racism/story/0,10795,1481647,00.html

[edit] Bernard Lewis: 'The neo-cons' favourite historian',

Could you please tell me who these "neo-cons" are, and when they've stated that Lewis is their favorite historian? It just sounds like somebody's opinion. -- Dan

[edit] Of course it's someone's opinion

It's a catchphrase, not sacred fact, Mr Pedant Dan. Bernard Lewis has been referred to by various influential publications as an academic poster-boy for the neo-conservative project within the humanities, specifically with regard to the project of nation and democracy building in the Middle East, a project which Lewis has long been advocating and which the US has taken on board most explicitly since the outbreak of the Iraq war.

[edit] can someone fix ToC?

It probably shouldn't be in the picture area thingumy. -nshworth al-nsh

[edit] Infobox

This article would benefit from a real infobox to replace the tabular mess currently in the article. Unfortunately Infobox University is somewhat US-centric and doesn't have all of the fields used in the table. I have mocked up a University Infobox below and tried to fit in as much of the data as possible. I would like to use this in the article, and perhaps integrate the data that doesn't fit into the article another way.

Bungopolis 13:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Great idea! --Ghormax 08:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm making the change Cpastern 22:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, that looks better. I was just waiting to see if somebody had a way to integrate the extra information, but who cares? I don't. All that crap belongs in the article, not a summary box, which is meant to be a concise representation of the most important data. Bungopolis 23:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS)
SOAS Logo
Motto: Knowledge is Power
Established: 1916
Type: Public
President: Baroness Helena Kennedy QC
Principal: Prof. Colin Bundy
Pro-Director: Prof. Peter Robb
Students: 3,500
Undergraduates: 1,600
Postgraduates: 1,500
Location: London, United Kingdom
Campus: Urban
Patron: HM The Queen
Affiliations: University of London
Website: http://www.soas.ac.uk

[edit] Why has all mention of the Islamophobic witch hunt against Muslim student Nasser Amin been removed?

To read more about what SOAS and external Zionists did to this Muslim student, read here:

http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2006/20060312_free_west.htm

Well presumably because it was utterly POV. There is no Islamophobic witch hunt - this is a wet dream created by those with a persecution complex. Amin has certainly been mistreated (although it is hard to muster too much fury over this given the repugnant views he expressed) and the actions of the School with regard to him were not in keeping with their own regulations but it had absolutely nothing to do with him being Muslim, Asian, Non-WASP or non-Martin for that matter. Anyway such a comparatively trivial matter has no place on the wiki page of a major institution and nobody without a vested, subjective interest in highlighting it would think otherwise. siarach 07:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To read more about Nasser Amin's mistreatment and more details about what the School is like for Muslims read his interview with the UK's leading Muslim civil liberties group, MPACUK

Part One:

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/1318/103/

Part Two:

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4/1335/103/


The opening paragraph/introduction to the above "evidence" is as hilarious an example of subjective ranting ive ever read:
Brother Nasser Amin is a student from the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) who has been used as a scape goat to please the Zionists and to attack those who stand for the Palestinian right of self defence against Israeli Occupation of their land.
And does my memory fail me or is this the same group who created the ludicrous "Islamophobe of the Year" poll which listed the likes of Julie Burchill ( for the crime of having the gall to speak out against the widespread Islamic mistreatment of women) with the likes of Islom Karimov and various other mass murderers/dictators etc? siarach 18:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable alumni

Can someone verify these, Aung San Suu Kyi page makes no reference to her attending SOAS, neither does Dom Joly and many others.--Fabio 00:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Aung San suu Kyi did attend SOAS for somekind of postgrad degree I think. Either way, I would hope she is an alumni as she is currently the Student Union's hon. president.87.194.83.65 12:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographic

Can anyone tell me what the ethnic demographic make up of SOAS is? i.e. what % is white, black, asian? it doesn't have to be very accurate, just ruff figures--Fabio 07:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately institution specific data doesn't seem to be available from HESA. Timrollpickering 12:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I cant give proper percentages but if youre just looking for a general idea id say the majority of the student population is non-white. siarach 16:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
ok can someone tell me then how much is white then?--Fabio 20:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
http://www.soas.ac.uk/departments/index.cfm?navid=1837 : This has the statistics. SOAS was 50.66% white last year. BovineBeast 16:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] University ratings

(I'm posting this to all articles on UK universities as so far discussion hasn't really taken off on Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities.)

There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities#University ratings. Timrollpickering 00:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SOAS UserBox

For Wikipedians from SOAS Surena 11:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Per the Userbox migration, {{Template:SOAS}} was moved to {{User:ParthianShot/User SOAS}}


[edit] Pronunciation

I've never heard "['səuæz]". Is it really common? Lfh 14:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Mostly among older people. The students usually pronounce it with an [s], in my experience, but I've heard people who were students here 20 years ago pronounce it with [z]. BovineBeast 16:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I have ejected the links below from the main article as being in violation of WP:EL. If these are refences to contents in the main article, they should be included as such, in a format acceptable to WP:FOOT. Otherwise, they should remain deleted.

Ohconfucius 01:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some appalling institutional racism in SOAS

There is some frankly disgraceful and dismissive talk above mainly from the user who calls himself An Siarach in respect of discrimination in SOAS. Well, the article below should help us all to understand that racism towards ethnic minorities (and indeed, discrimination against women) is present in SOAS College at the highest levels, after all.

A lesson in racism

Dr Fareda Banda was shocked to discover that her white peers at the School of Oriental and African Studies earned up to £10,000 more. Robert Verkaik reports

Few academics can expect to reach the professional heights scaled by the women's rights expert Fareda Banda. Educated in racially segregated schools in Zimbabwe, Dr Banda, 37, became the first black African woman from her country to be awarded a doctorate in law from Oxford University in 1993.

Her talents were later recognised by the Law Commission, where she worked closely with a number of senior judges, including Dame Brenda Hale, now the country's first female Law Lord.

Then, in 1999, she was invited by the former Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine of Lairg, to help to investigate the perceptions of lawyers and judges on the system for appointing QCs. The final report, written with Dr Kate Malleson, was well received and confirmed Dr Banda's status as a leading expert in women's human rights. Dr Banda, by now a senior lecturer at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), could expect a bright future.

But last year, she made an alarming discovery. After a casual enquiry about her pay, she uncovered evidence that, for the six years she had been employed by SOAS, she had been paid up to £10,000 less than her white colleagues. It was a shocking moment in Dr Banda's career and one she says she will never forget. How could one of the world's centres of excellence for black and Asian studies be operating a policy that racially discriminated against one of its leading academics?

When Dr Banda took her complaint to senior members of the college, she was told that pay was "not an exact science". However, it later emerged that a male law lecturer who had arrived at SOAS three years after Dr Banda was being paid thousands of pounds more than her.

The college agreed to offer her £17,000 to settle her claim for unfair treatment, but refused to accept that it had been guilty of race discrimination. Dr Banda rejected the offer and took SOAS to an employment tribunal. Last month, she told the tribunal panel: "I found the School's apparent preference for admitting sex but not race discrimination abhorrent. As a black woman, I consider that both race and sex discrimination are unacceptable, and cannot see that one is somehow preferable to, or less shameful than, the other. I do not have the option of waking up in the morning and deciding to be either a woman or black. I am both simultaneously, and therefore experience multiple and intersecting discrimination."

It was only when further evidence emerged about how another lecturer in her department, a white woman, was being paid £7,000 more than Dr Banda, that the college admitted that it might be guilty of race discrimination. This second lecturer had joined the college after Dr Banda and was less qualified. The college had also rejected her application for a previous position at the same time that Dr Banda had been successful with hers.

Dr Banda told the London tribunal how the revelation had made her feel worthless and bitter towards the college. "When one has low expectations of a person or a place, then any failings can be quickly forgotten. But I came to SOAS with high expectations. How does one start to communicate the sense of betrayal, anger, disappointment and a general feeling of being let down, that has come from my multiple experiences of discrimination at SOAS, an institution that I had held in such high regard?"

She also accused the college of exacerbating the "hurt" by the way it tried to ignore the discrimination: "The manner in which I was discriminated against was that, for many years, month by month, I was paid less than white comparators. This must have been within the knowledge of many of the college's administrative and financial staff, none of whom questioned the fact that an African woman was paid less than less- qualified white colleagues."

Dr Banda said that she had even come to question her own worth as a human being. "My confidence in my abilities has taken a knock. I arrived at SOAS full of enthusiasm for my research. Over the years, I have been filled with self-doubt. As the only black person in a department where everyone else seems to be able to get on, one starts to doubt one's ability and begins to think, 'Maybe they are right, maybe I am not good enough, maybe I cannot write that book after all. It must be me, they must be right. I am not good enough'. The School's treatment of me has left me wondering, 'Am I not human?'."

She also described to the tribunal how she felt "humiliated and foolish" for having trusted the senior management to treat her fairly. "The sense of isolation that I have often felt has been compounded by a feeling that I have been taken for granted." The experience led to depression, insomnia and weight-loss. Dr Banda's case is particularly disturbing because it shows that, even when black people believe that they are succeeding, they may still be discriminated against.

The college has now settled Dr Banda's claim for race discrimination and unfair pay by offering her a five-figure sum in compensation. Her solicitor, Robin Lewis, of Bindman & Partners, told the tribunal that Dr Banda would now be withdrawing her legal action. In a written statement, SOAS says that it is pleased to have reached an agreement with Dr Banda. But adds: "SOAS had admitted well before the start of the legal proceedings that, as a result of a mistake in the setting of the starting salary of one of Dr Banda's colleagues, it had in the past unwittingly breached its obligations to Dr Banda under the equal pay and race relations legislation. It had already brought Dr Banda's salary into line with that of her colleague and had offered to compensate Dr Banda in respect of the past difference in pay."

Dr Banda's experience has provoked concern among race-equality campaigners. Raj Joshi, vice-chairman of the Society of Black Lawyers, says that the case illustrates the reality of the glass ceiling that ethnic-minority people encounter in the workplace. "It is appalling that, in the 21st century, Asian and black people still have to prove that they are as good as, if not better, than their white counterparts. It seems that the glass ceiling has now turned into a titanium ceiling. Yet again, we have able, skilled and talented individuals who have to overcome more obstacles than ever before."

Oba Nsugbe, QC, a leading black barrister and former member of the Bar Council's race relations committee, says: "Without commenting on the facts of the case, it does serve as a reminder that it's important to act in a proactive way in order to keep procedures and structures in an institution, even one as respected as SOAS, under constant review, to ensure that unfairness to an individual does not result in discrimination by way of gender, race, sexual orientation or disability."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article60815.ece —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anti-bad thingys (talk • contribs) 03:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Anti-bad thingys 03:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, the 'discrimination' that An Siarach dismissed was a load of nonsense. However, this does seem somewhat more credible, and possibly worthy of being mentioned (especially since the school ended up settling). But don't just complain that it's not there, mention it yourself. BovineBeast 09:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SOAS logo.jpg

Image:SOAS logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 09:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What Defines a "Notable Academic"?/Student Union

As much as I appreciate Kazumi Tanaka's ability to miraculously get me through the second year of my Japanese B.A., I fear with few Google results, mostly from SOAS, and no Wikipedia entry of her own, she is not "Notable" in the way many of those listed are, so I've left that little bit of vandalisation from the bitter student, where he remover her name from the list, be (whilst removing his moan about her unwillingness to write a reference). But what about the others? Given that all of the SOAS lecturers are notable in their own way in different fields, and most of them are also published, either we're going to have a very long list (eventually), or we need to set/find criteria that sets the ones listed here apart from the others.

I've also added a short section about the union in, with the link to the specific article. Does the student union article deserve it's own page, or should we merge into the main article somehow? (I realise we could probably pull out a few skeletons out of the closet, and possibly add a couple of pictures of the beautifully clean common room...) 82.36.106.80 23:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable academics

Where would one go to find a list of notable former academics? I'm unable to verify at least one had any connection. 24.4.253.249 05:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)