Talk:School of Economic Science
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[edit] Neutrality
The Past
I read the "Secret Cult" book which attacks the School many years ago. The authors were professional journalists working, if I recall, for one of the main London evening newspapers. I don't know if all their allegations were accurate or not, but this section - especially the second paragraph - includes an unsourced defense against some of the allegations. One has to assume it is written by someone affiliated with or sympathetic to the School. "Nowadays the School is very open about what it teaches." Not in its advertising it isn't - to this day, the posters on the subway and magazine ads do not explain that the School teaches "a particular philosophy". Nor do they mention that "the student will be invited to a meditation initiation ceremony which is of vedantic inspiration". Maybe there's nothing wrong with any of that, but to make these points in a Wikipedia article is to advance an unsupported POV. Simply heading the section "The Past" is an implicit claim that "The Present" is different - maybe it is, but no evidence is cited. KD
I disagree. If you refer to the School's website, there is a great deal of information about the philosophy, its origins, meditation etc.There are number of people hostile to the school and who criticise it. They are free to do so, but should not use Wikipedia as a tool to pursue their "campaign". In the interests of openess and factual accuracy visit the website.In the past the school was criticised for a lack of openess, and has done all it can to remedy that. One of the principles in the school is tolerance and another is that nothing taught should be accepted or rejected unless the student verifies it for themselves. The book refered to was written over twenty years ago, and in my view does not reflect accurately the present. The website is http://www.schooleconomicscience.org/84.69.132.114 15:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
If we want to talk about unsupported POV, I object to the misleading statement: "Apparently while the under cover journalists were on their 'stake outs' they were offered cups of tea by members of the school." The only purpose for this sentence that I can deduce is to imply that the "tea" was laced with something. That paragraph continues: "The book was taglined as a A full expose of a strange and destructive organization that is penetrating the corridors of power. There were apparently links with key members of the Liberal party in Britain." Again, these are clearly intended to IMPLY something, without any attempt at verification.
Is this a "storm in a tea cup"? Wikipedia should not be used by those seeking only to criticise.The information about the school is freely available on the website - link above.
Another neutrality issue is related to the external links provided at the bottom of the page. The link entitled "General discussion of the SES" is a link to what could hardly be called a "general discussion" when the core contributors are disaffected ex-students of the school or relatives of same. The title of the link should be changed accordingly.
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- Removed a great deal of the unsourced material which served only to defend the school from the sourced criticisms. The SES web-site cannot serve as a third-party source for this article. I don't believe the school was even founded by MacLaren - by his father, surely - but I've left that for the time being. Any attempts to redress the balance in favor of the SES will need to be supported by citations.KD Tries Again 18:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)KD
There is clearly more information about the belief system underpinning the SES system available on the SES website these days which is to be applauded. The so-called "campaign" against the school has long called for greater transparency and it is great to see that the School is responding to past criticisms. However many of the more potentially controversial aspects of the School come under the umbrella of the SES principle of "measure" which guides member's behaviour. There is a mention of "measure" but no description of it, on the SES website. As this is a guiding principle for member's behaviour, I am surprised a description is not included on the wikipedia entry or on its website. Its a bit like explaining christianity without mentioning the ten commandments or catholicism without the catechism etc. Wikisatva 13:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC.)
Miles Dogood: Certainly advaita contain the reasonable idea that leading a measured life - that is to say, a life which is not dominated by selfish passion and sudden whim - generally has a better chance of being a happy and useful life than one that is dominated in this way. In my view it would take some stretch of the imagination to consider such a view particularly controversial. Or even remarkable enough to be especially highlighted. Those interested in knowing more about the philosophy on offer are free to attend one of the introductory courses and then to continue their studies or not, as they please. Those not interested are equally free not to attend. The School's position is to welcome those who wish to study there, and respect those who do not.
I'll edit in an attempt to be more constructive as to why I think the absence of a description of the principle of measure is significant and leaves the wiki entry so incomplete as to be almost meaningless (and the SES website also): 1) all religious groups start off with nice basic principles like "measure" (eg love others as yourself or live a selfless live undominated by passion and whim etc) but differ in many many ways in the interpretation of what this means in terms of expected ideal behaviour of their adherents. In fact it is these differences in interpretation that define the different religious groupings (and which matter so much that groups tend to split over these interpretations eg the current debate in Anglicism over homosexuality) 2) specifically within the School of Economic Science, what is expected of members in their behaviour and if it is so uncontroversial, why not explain the principles openly? 3) with apologies for rehashing the obvious, the particular SES interpretation of what a "measured" life is - expecting women and men to conform to very stereotyped ideas of femininity and masculinity (as in the women being expected to wash the men's clothes at SES retreats in the past (at least? is this still the case?), whether one can be gay and living a "measured" life, prescriptive opinions on what music and art is 'in' or 'out', predicating a view of the measuredness or not of particular composer's or artist's work on their lifestyle, particular view of having a disability - these are interpretations that are controversial for many people. 4) the application of measure within the SES itself: it is no secret that ex-members and ex-pupils have spoken of excessive zeal, bullying and group-pressure on members to conform to the interpretations of measure as described by the SES. In Advaita it is standard to have a personal relationship with a guru - as this is not part of the structure in the SES and there is no guru present, it is quite understandable that there may be a tendency for an over-reliance on "the group" to retain unity. Once there is an awareness of the potential pitfalls in this structure it might not be a problem. However as measure is the glue binding the group together, it seems a serious omission not to describe what the principles are. Wikisatva 20:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC).
The School's concept of measure is explained in some detail on the SES website. As a student of the School for some years I have found the idea of measure as explained generally helpful in life, and I am very grateful for that. There does seem to be a certain spikiness in some of the 'constructive criticism' on this page. Of course everyone is entitled to express their views, but my own experience attending the School really doesn't match the the generally critical tone of some postings. It's perhaps worth pointing out that being in the School is entirely voluntary, which by definition means anyone is free to leave if he or she wishes. Certainly I would leave if I felt 'bullied' or 'forced to conform', or thought I was being asked to surrender my own reason. But I never have. General.custer1
I have sought to restore some semblance of balance and neutrality to this entry, which in my view was previously unbalanced and distorted.Miles Dogood 19:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted the above users edit. The criticsms have their own section, and are not laced through the main body of the article which would warrant it to be unbalanced. I feel that User:Miles Dogood's edits seek to distance the school from its Hindi roots, which I feel are integral to it's teachings. I have also tided the intro. Gareth E Kegg 14:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted the entry, which contains many errors, in the interests of factual, balanced and accurate information. Wikipedia should not be used as a tool for those hostile to the SES to pursue their campaign. Miles Dogood 17:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to get into an edit war over this, but I do not see how your edits make the article any more balanced. You remove a lot of critcism, and your distancing of the school from its Hindi roots I again find baffling. I was a student of the school for three years, and the description of the self and the absolute is accurate. The story of the schools origins you also seek to sanitize. You say "Wikipedia should not be used as a tool for those hostile to the SES to pursue their campaign", yet none of those placing those edits have declared themselves to be hostile to the SES, and as the article stood it did not represent the vanguard of a "campaign" rather than an article describing the school as it is. In the best traditions of the school, please "pause" before you edit. Gareth E Kegg 18:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I don’t want an edit war either, but there really are quite a few errors of fact in your contributions – including your latest reversions. The entry is therefore misleading. Here are some examples:
- the School was effectively started by Leon MacLaren, with the support of his father, Andrew MacLaren, in 1937
- the core of the School's philosophy is Advaita Vedanta, particularly as taught by Shri Shantananda Saraswati. This is an ancient spiritual and philosophical tradition and not a religion. It has no identifiable date of origin. Hinduism draws extensively on the same source, but is classified as a religion. The concept of Advaita - unity underlying apparent multiplicity - can be found in other great religions and philosophies of both East and West. The introductory philosophy courses offered by the School are broad and general, although the principles of Advaita Vedanta are inherent in them
- Sanskrit is generally acknowledged as the oldest of the Indo-European languages, and a major influence on the others, including English. The Hindi language is a close derivation, but is not identical.
The other point with previous entries you have reinstated is balance. Much of the criticism contained in the links previously there relates to events 20-30 years ago. This is not made clear. Even then, a great deal of the material contained in these links was far from impartial. Such an assembly, taken together, cannot reasonably be described as neutral and certainly doesn’t represent the School "as it is".
The entry you deleted is factually correct and the links include more current (including critical) opinion from completely external sources. Miles Dogood 11:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I am still deeply unhappy with the direction that you have taken this page. As I lack the resources to redress the balance, the page must stand as an unblemished testament to the school, rather than a "warts and all" encyclopedic article. Gareth E Kegg 10:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I simply don't agree with that. In my opinion the article accurately describes the main facts about the School today and does contain some up to date, third party and critical links. Miles Dogood 15:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I have been rereading the NPOV guidelines to see if they can shed any light on this dispute. Firstly I think the claims that there are people posting edits because they are hostile to the school or have a campaign going are not in the spirit of assuming that the editors are acting in good faith. Secondly, I'm wondering should this page exist at all as a) all views on and within the SES are very much a tiny minority interest and is it worthy of an entry? and b) there are so few authoritative sources to be cited - the Secret Cult book, the Inform piece, the article from the philosopher's magazine and the School website. I don't include the why are they dead forum because while it contains a useful snapshot of the school during MacLaren's time, it doesn't seem to me to meet wikipedia standards as a source. While Inform surely could be regarded as having reasonable credentials, the magazine piece is one person's point of view and the book, in fairness, is somewhat out of date. There is no great body of material produced by the School on their system of belief and practice (including the website which btw does not give much information on measure and is short on specifics on what is taught) in order to be able to establish any sort of a rounded view of their teachings. In my view this entry is currently not much different than the School's own website. Should this page exist at all and what would y'all think of deleting it? Wikisatva 00:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Miles, I don't know how you can say that criticism relates to events 20/30 years ago when you were editing the page at a time when there were references to the illegal use of corporal punishment in the Dutch SES children's school in 2000? This article is now total fudge - rather like the publicity material put out by the School. Let it stand as a testament (as anyone can see by going through back-edits) to the type of control adherents like to exert on how they present the teaching - still all unpublished. Publish the Conversations and other material used in study groups and let there be a proper discussion and airing of its roots and substance. Advocates can edit out a referenced quote from MacLaren saying that women should submit and obey their husbands and the School all you like, but it doesn't change the truth that that is what he said or that that was part of what his analysis of what "natural law" consists of. Funny, how the truth and access to it, seems to be so frightening to people who apparently are interested in just that. Oh well! Wikisatva 21:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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- I'll second the above comment. We were working toward a balanced page before it was been pretty well supressed by User:Miles Dogood. Is he any relation is he to User:Matthew Peters 21? Gareth E Kegg 21:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
