Talk:Schmidt Sting Pain Index

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[edit] yellow jacket and honey bee

the yellow jackets sting is much more intense in comparison to the honey bee.

I remember Dr. Schmidt's index from an article that appeared in OUTSIDE magazine in April, 1996. I have often referenced it in conversation. The man has a unique, wicked wit. I worship him.

I smell a rat... Can anyone confirm this as being real? This fails the Google test (all hits refer to Wiki articles or provide no new information whatsoever). Will mark for deletion unless reliable references are provided soon. Tadanisakari 09:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the remark above yours seems to contain a print citation. I will check it and try to get some further citations once I am back from vacation (circa 6 or 7 Jan, but give me till the 10th). I admit, it seems a leetle bit suspicious to me ... but I am continually discovering that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy. eritain 00:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

After looking about it seems Justin O. Schmidt is a real entomologist who works for the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tuscon, AZ. As for the index itself I was unable to locate any further citations.

I was the one who created this article and edited it extensively with a reference. Unfortunately the reference I initially used : University of Alberta paper on the net seems to host some other information than the original pain index. It is an obscure list but I would be last person to perform any editing on Wikipedia with the idea of pulling a prank or with malicious intent. It would be wonderful if someone added any offline source for this while i try to cull any other online references. It seemed someone had mentioned this appeared on Discover magazine etc. Idleguy 05:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Idleguy. While I was suspicious, I did not intend to call you out as a vandal... Just seeing if we could get some verifiable sources. It is the nature of the beast. Your work in Wiki is appreciated! Keep it up. Tadanisakari 07:38, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The Discover article (via the internet archive) certainly references the Scale, although evidently doesn't have all the information. I couldn't find the OUTSIDE article mentioned, nor did anything in their online archive turn up relevant search results. ImmortalWombat 08:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Also finding lots of references to an article by Christopher Starr, entitled, "A Pain Scale for Bee, Wasp and Ant Stings." Seems to be similar, if not the same, so if anyone can track that down, it would be great.
FWIW, a letter to the editor of Outside does show up as backing up the claim of the April 1996 article, 'King of Sting'. I've also added another print citation that reinforces the pain scale. --moof 06:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Just read the article from Outside (in a real library, on paper). Perfectly legit. Now, it would be interesting to write another article on Christopher Starr's scale and cross-reference them. eritain 23:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I have Chris Starr's 1985 paper A Simple Pain Scale for Field COmparison of Hymenopteran Stings, (J. Entomol. Sci. 20 no, 2:225-31), and the actual scale seems to be largely similar, if not based on Schmidt's earlier paper, and his 1985 (in press at the same time). It probably isn't worth a separate article - Starr's main point seems to be that pain scales are tricky to construct, and of limited use. ImmortalWombat 14:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I just created the article, and yes, I think it should be merged. Widefox 17:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The flavorful flavor text

Hmm. Around the end of March, a well-meaning user edited most of the humorous text out of this article.

Now, it's my impression that that text came straight from Schmidt--that it's his own way of making a tongue-in-cheek thing like a sting pain index even more masochistically amusing. That seems in keeping with the one Web-available reference cited in the article (but only "in keeping," note: that reference doesn't contain the whole index); given what's been said on this talk page, I assume that Idleguy didn't write the text himself.

I'm a total outsider to this question, mind. I'm exceedingly unlikely to weigh in on any sort of edit war over it. Iralith 22:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm an outsider too, though for what it's worth, wikipedia very rarely quotes even phrases directly from sources, let alone sentences or paragraphs. The tone is interesting, but perhaps not quite suited to an encyclopedia, so it would be best, if kept, if they could be more directly attributed to Schmidt. I do think it would be nice if it were kept on the web somewhere, but I don't think Wikisource is the place for it either, since it's not free material. I don't have strong opinions about it though (other than I'd feel better if I could personally verify the magazine article, or if multiple other people could verify it). --Interiot 23:06, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Is the current "this article is too informal" tagging referring to the rather colourful style? It occurs to me it would be worth putting a reference to Schmidt's original paper if, as I suspect, the "tasting notes" are indeed his own. If they are, they should unquestionably be preserved, since this article is on Schmidt's index and not on sting pain.

Can anyone provide a citation for the paper?Andrewwyld 17:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I found a couple of citations--it turns out there's more to Schmidt's original paper than the article made clear, anyway. Hence I edited in the bits about social behaviour in Hymenopterans and stuck three citations in, one of which is online and provides much information about the original papers. I'll see if I can root out the originals and improve the article further--apparently the final 1990 index classifies *78* species of insect!!Andrewwyld 18:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The 1984 paper is not about social behaviour, it's about hemolytic strength of venoms. The 1990 paper is actually in a book to which I don't have access, but there are enough references to that from reputable sources that I think it's likely to contain these colourful descriptions. Iridium77 21:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I think he was trying to link social behaviour with hemolytic strength, but I still haven't had a chance to read the originals so I could well be wrong. I will be chceking it up shortly; mean time, thanks for the change :) Andrewwyld 06:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asian giant hornet

The Asian giant hornet is, according to its wikipedia entry, supposed to have a rather painful sting. Were the Schmidt Sting Pain Index less subjective than it'd appear to be, it'd be interesting to see where this hornet would rank. TerraFrost 20:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It's described by Masato Ono, another entomologist, as "like a hot nail being driven into my leg", which sounds comparable to Paraponera, with the additional factor of being much more commonly fatal. I don't know if Schmidt has been stung by one. I need to find that 1990 paper .... Andrewwyld 18:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly more references

Taken from the bibliography of an article linked from the Bullet Ant page:

Schmidt, J.O. (1986): Chemistry, Pharmacology, and Chemical Ecology of Ant Venoms. In: Venoms of the Hymenoptera (Piek, T., ed.). Academic Press, pp. 425-509.

Schmidt, J.O. (1990): Hymenopteran Venoms: Striving Toward the Ultimate Defense Against Vertebrates. In: Insect Defenses, Adaptive Mechanisms and Strategies of Prey and Predators (Evans D.L. & Schmidt, J.O., Ed's.). State Univ. of New York Press, Albany, pp: 387-419.

I don't have the time or resources to run these down myself, but they may be useful.

what about the bulldog ant?

[edit] European Hornet

I added the European Hornet as 2.5. This is NOT, I repeat not a referenced number, but my interpretation from the colour code chart in [1]. From what I understand, a European hornet sting is more painful than a yellowjacket, so I added a 0.5 on to distinguish this. This must be redone with a proper reference.

[edit] Bee - both Honeybee, and Bumblebee

anyone seen any data for these two? Widefox 16:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Starr's paper, Schmidt rates them both a 2. Hornets get the same.

Is there any difference between the two ratings? Schmidt has fine non-integer ratings, so are they rounded for Starr e.g. are hornets rated 2.0 with Schmidt?, 2 Star? Widefox 17:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mapping colour to numbers

Here's the colours from [1] colour scale goes: light to dark: least to more painful: a, b, c, d

  • a Imported fire ant - Solenopsis invicta
  • b Yellow jacket - Vespula germanica
  • b Honeybee - Apis mellifera
  • b Africanized ("killer") bee - Apis mellifera scutellata
  • b Hornet - Vespa crabro
  • c Paper wasp - Polistes annularis
  • c Harvester ant - Pogonomyrmex maricopa
  • d Pepsis wasp - Vespula germanica

combining with:

   * 1.0 Sweat bee: Light, ephemeral, almost fruity. A tiny spark has singed a single hair on your arm.
   * 1.2 Fire ant: Sharp, sudden, mildly alarming. Like walking across a shag carpet & reaching for the light switch.
   * 1.8 Bullhorn acacia ant: A rare, piercing, elevated sort of pain. Someone has fired a staple into your cheek.
   * 2.0 Bald-faced hornet: Rich, hearty, slightly crunchy. Similar to getting your hand mashed in a revolving door.
   * 2.0 Yellowjacket: Hot and smoky, almost irreverent. Imagine WC Fields extinguishing a cigar on your tongue.
   * 2.5 European hornet [citation needed]
   * 3.0 Red harvester ant: Bold and unrelenting. Somebody is using a drill to excavate your ingrown toenail.
   * 3.0 Paper wasp: Caustic & burning. Distinctly bitter aftertaste. Like spilling a beaker of Hydrochloric acid on a paper cut.
   * 4.0 Pepsis wasp: Blinding, fierce, shockingly electric. A running hair drier has been dropped into your bubble bath (if you get stung by one you might as well lie down and scream).
   * 4.0+ Bullet ant: Pure, intense, brilliant pain. Like walking over flaming charcoal with a 3-inch nail in your heel.

gives a=1.x, b=2.x, c=3.x, d=4.x

  • 1.x Imported fire ant - Solenopsis invicta
  • 2.x Yellow jacket - Vespula germanica
  • 2.x Honeybee - Apis mellifera
  • 2.x Africanized ("killer") bee - Apis mellifera scutellata
  • 2.x Hornet - Vespa crabro
  • 3.x Harvester ant - Pogonomyrmex maricopa
  • 3.x Paper wasp - Polistes annularis
  • 4.x Pepsis wasp - Vespula germanica

giving:

   * 1.0 Sweat bee: Light, ephemeral, almost fruity. A tiny spark has singed a single hair on your arm.
   * 1.2 Fire ant: Sharp, sudden, mildly alarming. Like walking across a shag carpet & reaching for the light switch.
   * 1.8 Bullhorn acacia ant: A rare, piercing, elevated sort of pain. Someone has fired a staple into your cheek.
   * 2.0 Bald-faced hornet: Rich, hearty, slightly crunchy. Similar to getting your hand mashed in a revolving door.
   * 2.0 Yellowjacket: Hot and smoky, almost irreverent. Imagine WC Fields extinguishing a cigar on your tongue.
   * 2.x Honeybee: [citation needed]
   * 2.x Africanized ("killer") bee: [citation needed]
   * 2.x European hornet [citation needed]
   * 3.0 Red harvester ant: Bold and unrelenting. Somebody is using a drill to excavate your ingrown toenail.
   * 3.0 Paper wasp: Caustic & burning. Distinctly bitter aftertaste. Like spilling a beaker of Hydrochloric acid on a paper cut.
   * 4.0 Pepsis wasp: Blinding, fierce, shockingly electric. A running hair drier has been dropped into your bubble bath (if you get stung by one you might as well lie down and scream).
   * 4.0+ Bullet ant: Pure, intense, brilliant pain. Like walking over flaming charcoal with a 3-inch nail in your heel.


Widefox 16:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] linking in index

This colourful prose, I think, is enhanced by more than usual links. A few of the terms arguably might need disambiguation (nail (toe) vs nail (metal)) Widefox 12:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)