Talk:Schicksalstag

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Contents 1 occasionally used by historians and journalists since shortly after World War 2 2 First hint? 3 Current widespread use? 4 2007

[edit] occasionally used by historians and journalists since shortly after World War 2

I don't like these weasel words either, but it seems to be impossible to find out when and by whom the term was used for the first time in relation to German history...does anybody know? -- Ferkelparade π 14:16, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In any event, 'Kristallnacht' should be put in quotes or be replaced by Reichspogromnacht as it is nazi terminology. 87.234.85.204 08:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Kristallnacht is the term generally used in English (Yours isn't even mentioned in the leasd of the that article.) Rmhermen 14:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact I prefer the term Kristallnacht myself. IIRC the proper nazi term was Reichskristallnacht. Reichsprogromnacht was the more ambiguous politically correct term that was invented later on to weed out the propaganda carried in the original term's meaning.

This kind of language revisionism is, from a linguistic point of view, absurd at best (if it wasn't for the revisionism, most people these days who had learned the term Kristallnacht from history books wouldn't make any positive connections with the phrase at all, even though the original components "crystal" and "night" are neutral), but so is the game of political correctness. — Ashmodai ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First hint?

"For many observers, it is the first hint of Germany's radical antisemitic policies."

Who is meant by "observers"? For those people with a clear interest in German politics at that time, it must have been a clear sign instead of a first hint (many of these hints came earlier). It might have been a first hint for people generally not specially interested in German politics, but these should not be called observers in my opinion. --Xeeron 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current widespread use?

I have to say, that this is the first time I've ever heard the term "Schicksalstag" at all, and I've been living in Germany all my life. Press coverage today (09.11.) is about Nov 9th 1989 almost exclusively; the only other listed event you learn about in school is the "Reichskristallnacht". (I know about the others, but I didn't know they also happened on Nov 9th.) Definitely not in "widespread use".--Mirage GSM 14:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: I just noticed the german version of this article is titled "9.November (Deutschland)". I suggest doing the same here and leaving "Schicksalstag" as a redirect. --Mirage GSM 14:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposed move, and I do not think we should follow the German Wikipedia's example in this case - I find de:Benutzer:790's argument on the de talkpage rather problematic. It is an encycopedia's job to describe facts, not to influence or make them - in this case, it is our job to describe that the term is widely used in German newspapers and to describe what it means, and moving it to another title because you don't like the term (as 790 did over on de) is in itself rather POV-ey. I am also rather surprised that you've never heard the term, given its inflationary use in German feuilletons. Just today, I found extensive coverage in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (even with a photo gallery), Focus and Die Zeit. -- Ferkelparade π 15:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Having never heard it before either, it definitely has an abstract sound to it. Newspapers and pundits may use it, maybe not even widely spread, but the day as a whole is not recognized as such by the public. This is in stark contrast to other German expressions commonly used in English. 80.138.227.71 17:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2007

It seems a sixth event was added, as of now the sixth event reads:

• 2007: The adjudication of the Richtlinie über die Vorratsdatenspeicherung by the Bundestag marks the end of an era of over 50 years of informational self-determination in germany.

Is this a major event? The link provided is redlinked (and might stay that way being a German term, but not being or knowing German, I am unaware if this is something that would have an English bluelink) and don't know how important the event is, especially in regards to the other 5.

I suggest that if this will stay at the very least to change the "5" at the top to "6". (I suspect it will not stay, though, for one, the event was way to recent as of its adding in Wikipedia, unless it is obviously a major event, such as Kaiser Wilhelm's abdication or the fall of the Berlin Wall, recent history of a few hours old probalby isn't worthy enough (only history can judge history), and secondly I distinctly remember last year at this time an event was added under 2006, which obviously didn't last either. Although, it is interesting that "slow news days" never seem to happen in Germany on November 9, as even minor events (such as 2006 and possibly 2007) are worthy enough to be possibly Schicksalstagged.) --Canuckguy 01:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)